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Wow this thread really is cursed edit: cause it just ate my reply to that post
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Jan 2, 2018 14:46
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Neurolimal posted:....and the latter is proof that there isn't nuance there? There is no reason to think the Institute can be fixed beyond the players own thoughts, much like a legion run. Like yeah you can do a legion run and tell yourself in FNV everything worked out alright but there's not a lot backing that up.
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Jan 2, 2018 14:47
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Berke Negri posted:There is no reason to think the Institute can be fixed beyond the players own thoughts, much like a legion run. I mean, technically you could assume that the institute is fixed because you can address slavery in game, and then imagine "as new leader of the institute PLAYERCHARACTER made them stop doing the dumb poo poo that made no sense, the end." You cant do that in NV because all the faction ending dont end with you replacing the insane leader. That said, I'd argue that there's plenty backing a presumption that a legion victory would eventually result in them crumbling and being replaced with tolerant states; the majority of their endings result in the legion crumbling after Caesar dies, just as the real roman empire ultimately did (which is obviously intentional on RK's part). Caesar gaining access to the rest of america just pushes back the Legion's expiration date, and makes their dissolution larger-scale. If you're willing to presume that the unexplored areas of Fallout America are still hostile wastes similar to Arizona then it's possible to see them as a lesser evil compared to NCR AKA New America, which would likely only expand if there already exists civilization with something they want (like the Dam). Of course, that requires tolerating a lot of short-term atrocity (since you dont become New Caesar) that is crucial to their success, which is why I never did a legion run. And because FO4 establishes that the old society is still around, just grimier and with shinier money 
Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 15:04
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Siding with the Institute is clearly the evil ending, like you're not going realistically tell them wow slavery is wrong outside you're own head and they're like gawsh you're right, okay.
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Jan 2, 2018 15:20
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Yeah like as Minutemen focusing heavily on settlements you can basically have dozens of West Coast Fallout level towns up and running in a few weeks of arriving in the wasteland, with an incompetent militia and a big fort and private island and everything.
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Jan 2, 2018 16:12
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shovelbum posted:Yeah like as Minutemen focusing heavily on settlements you can basically have dozens of West Coast Fallout level towns up and running in a few weeks of arriving in the wasteland, with an incompetent militia and a big fort and private island and everything. Well, to be fair, there's no local police force -- the one safe place, Diamond City, has it's own security, but there's no one policing Boston at large, before the Minutemen. And they're in pieces until the Magical Playercharacter arrives and rebuilds their organization by not acting like a moron. So, that's not too much of a stretch for me. Once the Minutemen (i.e. the PC) starts acting as the local defense, then it would make sense that it would have a snowball effect -- more and more settlements start joining the Minutemen and acting as the local police force, keeping the Raiders and Mutants at bay, causing new settlements to join up, etc. I mean, it's pretty shoddy, but out of all the janky narrative crap going on in F4, that's not the part I want to die on.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:53
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Berke Negri posted:Siding with the Institute is clearly the evil ending, like you're not going realistically tell them wow slavery is wrong outside you're own head and they're like gawsh you're right, okay. That's more up to personal optimism of what would happen than any real in-game proof. What we do know is that it's a society of scientists, they didn't balk at making a sentient synth child modeled identically after their leader, they have nonsentient generation 1 synths that can do what they wanted generation 3 synths do, and you have multiple synth companions and allies throughout multiple factions capable of proving gen3 sentience. And if we're speaking realistically, in any followup game to 4 Bethesda wouldn't risk the backlash of going "oh that speech you got to make which was interesting? Yeah the scientists without power armor and Legendary Raiders rear end of the Seer and exploding revolvers overthrew you because they didn't like it"
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Jan 2, 2018 18:00
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Neurolimal posted:That said, I'd argue that there's plenty backing a presumption that a legion victory would eventually result in them crumbling and being replaced with tolerant states; the majority of their endings result in the legion crumbling after Caesar dies, just as the real roman empire ultimately did (which is obviously intentional on RK's part). Caesar gaining access to the rest of america just pushes back the Legion's expiration date, and makes their dissolution larger-scale. The bolded part is a wild-rear end guess. There's going to be tons of people left who either do not remember a thing before the Legion or remember it as that time when there weren't raiders and who cares how anyone who isn't a baseline male fared. They could easily cargo-cult the old days. Or they may not. Who knows, and that's the problem. We've seen what the status quo of the Legion vanguard is already, and the few remotely concrete bits and pieces we heard of their core lands (such as they are) don't exactly paint a rosy picture, so assuming things are going to swing hard humanist when there's not even a kernel of humanism to pivot on is borderline delusional. There are probably ways to ... well, not at all redeem the Legion but pull something at least modestly nuanced out of it (think some cross between a Mithraic and Byzantine society showing up on the west edge of the map in Fallout On the Bayou or whatever). But that's a problem for a future developer and quite frankly after that bit of The Author Lives and Obsidian's recent output I'm not sure they're the right people to do Fallout side stories anymore.
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Jan 2, 2018 21:16
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dont be mean to me posted:The bolded part is a wild-rear end guess. Fair enough, by tolerant I meant "by the standards of what came before them". They could get worse, they could get better, just like how things happened with the old roman empire. The only guarantee is that so long as they maintain their stability and strength, raiders will continue to be incapable of walking in and butchering people anymore. Not sure what's been wrong with Obsidian's recent output; I've only heard good things about PoE, but I admittedly haven't played Tyranny. Giving it a quick google, it seems right up this convo's alley. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 22:43
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Berke Negri posted:Yeah, the institute is poo poo. Could you quote some, you keep talking about alot of people saying this and I don't think I've ever seen a single person not think what the Institute did was wrong?
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Jan 2, 2018 22:49
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Ever since New Vegas came out, every Fallout thread ever has degenerated into "Legion is evil!" "No they aren't!" "Yes they are!"
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Jan 2, 2018 22:53
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What's the institute's end goal? Shaun talks a lot about being the future of humanity, but they don't seem to be moving too far in that direction, unless turning all the humans into Super Mutants and replacing them with synths is somehow the future. Plus gorillas I guess? Seems like an incredibly wasteful vanity project, especially when the institute is short on power.
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Jan 2, 2018 22:54
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Gynovore posted:Ever since New Vegas came out, every Fallout thread ever has degenerated into "Legion is evil!" "No they aren't!" "Yes they are!" It's not even really "legion isn't evil!" in this case, so much as "Legion would ultimately peter out and the resulting states would be better than before they existed!"
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Jan 2, 2018 22:56
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null_pointer posted:Well, to be fair, there's no local police force -- the one safe place, Diamond City, has it's own security, but there's no one policing Boston at large, before the Minutemen. And they're in pieces until the Magical Playercharacter arrives and rebuilds their organization by not acting like a moron. A Minutemen run - going full hog into being the new General - is IMO the only run that doesn't ally the player character with a two-dimensional faction of cackling villains, angry gatekeeper nerds, or twee rebellion fetishists. If only there was a way to actually destroy the BoS, Institute, and Railroad and rebuild the Commonwealth as a functioning state. That would have been so much better as the follow-on to F3. Clean, purified water starts coming up from DC and the Sole Survivor rebuilds the Minutemen, then proceeds to knock apart and weld together the cardboard factions in the Commonwealth, making a new equal for the NCR on the East Coast, which would open things up for the NCR and the Commonwealth to either cooperate in taking apart the Legion or fight over places like New Orleans in future games.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:51
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Man I am so hooked on this game, unbelievable. It's like Civ 5 level of addiction. I'm smashing everything with my meele build, and I love how the perks synergise. The settlement "mini-game" is really weird, not sure what they were trying to accomplish. I thought about buying some dlc, but all the comments bitch about the fact it should be included in the base game, also you can get the same stuff with mods.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:05
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Tbh, Fallout runs on some pretty crazy ideas on what ends up actually being sapient and sentinent. Personally I found the snatchers irritating but perfectly fine because they couldn't reproduce and therefore could never replace humanity, same as with the supermutants and ghouls. We already had in 1 and F:BOS more existantial villains, but both were just a remnant of the old world. The thing I liked about the Institute as an idea, was that it might be an ideal for the future. Transhumanism is a great villain, and would really easily have set the faction themes as those of embracing either the past (BOS) or the future (Institute), or simple living without vision and wallowing in poo poo in the present. (Minutemen) I dont even count the robofetishists as a real faction; they're defined solely in opposition to the institute and have no vision whatsoever. If the game had been written better, you could have pointed this out, maybe even changed the factions or had the Minutemen be more, heh, Yesman like. But they didn't. You know, the thing I'd really like is to hear from the devs like we did from ropekid about NV how the actual FO4 differed from their ideal. Were they failed by their own lack of vision? By time? Executive meddling? Or were they just lazy shitheads who only delivered 'good enough'?
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Jan 3, 2018 04:59
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Personally I found the snatchers irritating but perfectly fine because they couldn't reproduce and therefore could never replace humanity, same as with the supermutants and ghouls.
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Jan 3, 2018 05:10
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supply chain issues?
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Jan 3, 2018 05:20
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Now that we know they can articulate armor, and modders have articulated clothing (or at least accessories, but clothing a little sometimes) for quite some time now, Bethesda or whoever the next side-story developer are need to handle articulated clothing themselves (where it makes sense, anyway - parting up a hazmat suit would defeat most of the purpose of a hazmat suit). The technology to have a shirt and slacks and shoes instead of 'an outfit' existed before Fallout 3. You'd think this wouldn't be difficult. If you're worried a raider would walk out of their hovel in their drawers, 1) you could always script apparel combos or valid apparel conditions, and 2) they're raiders; they probably would go fight in their drawers. Also de-gender clothing. If you want to quest-reward the player an outfit that appears radically differently based on the wearer's gender, give them a choice (or just both) and let anyone wear either. But this criticism dates back to, like, Fallout 3 so I laugh out loud at myself for thinking it will be resolved. Psychotic Weasel posted:There was a giant underground factory that pumped out a new synth roughly every 90 seconds... I'm amazed the Commonwealth isn't wall to wall fake people by the time we show up given the rate they can make them at this point. 90 minutes, maybe? Who even knows; time compression!  Not that that should affect things much if the Institute's been doing it for yearses. It's more of a play for 'look at all this cool poo poo that could be at your hands if you hammer the  button' than an assembly line (and it probably should be akin to biocraftsmanship or something).Unless they burn through slave labor at a truly prodigious rate, which, well, maybe? dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 05:44
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dont be mean to me posted:Now that we know they can articulate armor, and modders have articulated clothing (or at least accessories, but clothing a little sometimes) for quite some time now, Bethesda or whoever the next side-story developer are need to handle articulated clothing themselves (where it makes sense, anyway - parting up a hazmat suit would defeat most of the purpose of a hazmat suit). "Oh drat I spilled BBQ sauce on this synth I was using as a table. Whelp incinerate it and get me a new synth!" I could totally see that being a thing with what we see of the Institute.
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Jan 3, 2018 07:53
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dragonshardz posted:If only there was a way to actually destroy the BoS, Institute, and Railroad and rebuild the Commonwealth as a functioning state. I think you can do the railroad BOS mission to blow up the blimp(kill and steal the commander's clothes), turn around go murder everyone inside the railroad, teleport to the institute kill someone(kill your son steal his clothes), and go talk to Sturges who found pipes leading into the institute. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 09:40
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Tenzarin posted:I think you can do the railroad BOS mission to blow up the blimp(kill and steal the commander's clothes), turn around go murder everyone inside the railroad, teleport to the institute kill someone(kill your son steal his clothes), and go talk to Sturges who found pipes leading into the institute. I like this plan. I'm going to do it.
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Jan 3, 2018 10:26
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Tenzarin posted:I think you can do the railroad BOS mission to blow up the blimp(kill and steal the commander's clothes), turn around go murder everyone inside the railroad, teleport to the institute kill someone(kill your son steal his clothes), and go talk to Sturges who found pipes leading into the institute. Really you just have to not progress the BOS or railroad missions too far when you ruin your relationship with the Institute, say by dropping 25 bottlecap mines and a live grenade into Synth Retention. That's what makes the Minuteman ending available. Well, that and taking back the Castle and I think getting the artillery up. The Brotherhood will just kind of blink incomprehendingly that the revolutionary war reenactors actually did the thing, and you don't have to wipe out the Railroad either. Though, of course, you can. I think there's a special path where the Minutemen help you drive out the Brotherhood, too, but you might need to beat the game as them first.
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Jan 3, 2018 17:02
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Glazius posted:getting the artillery up. I know what I'm doin' 
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Jan 3, 2018 18:29
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Those prewar Vault-Tec board meetings must have been a gas "Alright, next item on the list: Jerry proposes we fill one vault with junkies, get them clean for 3 years, then cut off their methadone supply and give 'em Jet instead, then let them percolate for a few hundred years. I personally can't figure out how this will benefit mankind in a post-apocalyptic scenario, but Jerry thinks it'll be one hell of a party. Yeah or nay? ... looks like the vote's unanimous, the motion is passed. Alright, next item on the list: Tabitha proposes we establish a vault where leadership is a democratically-elected death sentence. Tabitha, I like where you're going with this one..."
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Jan 3, 2018 21:18
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Honestly, the drug vaults are the fo4 things I have the least problem with; seeing as the vaults themselves were involuntary tests first and bunkers second, I could see a pharma company going "hey, you're allowed to do inhumane testing on people, how much to have a vault where we can test our poo poo on a group/use them as specimens to make new medication?".
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Jan 3, 2018 21:23
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The Institute keeps making synths and loving with the surface world because one day a researcher got authorization to send a synth to infiltrate Diamond City, to see if it could pass as a totally normal person. It did, for a while, but then went haywire and killed a bunch of people. The Institute could not bear to admit just how bad they hosed up, so instead they all collectively decided to pretend it was part of some grand larger plan instead of the truth: that they were just a bunch of grad students playing stupid nonsensical science games underground while the surface went to hell. They authorized more synth impersonations and killings as a cover to help them lie to themselves about it and save face internally. Gradually over time they all forgot why they had ever even started to begin with, but none of them wanted to admit it, so they all just kind of kept doing it. But on a larger and larger scale over time, so they could keep saying that they were making progress towards their end goals. And that's why the Institute does what it does.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:14
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Tenzarin posted:I think you can do the railroad BOS mission to blow up the blimp(kill and steal the commander's clothes), turn around go murder everyone inside the railroad, teleport to the institute kill someone(kill your son steal his clothes), and go talk to Sturges who found pipes leading into the institute. Just did that. Sturges does nothing, and Preston Garvey gives me crap settlement missions.
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Jan 3, 2018 23:42
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Man, I wish there were two options for the Minutemen vs Steel ending: use artillery to destroy Prydwin, or use Artillery to destroy Prime while you lead an assault to steal Prydwin and declare it FLAGSHIP OF THE COMMONWEALH and park it over Castle. And then Automatron could've added a Yes Man ending where you build an army of robots to take over and crew Prydwin yourself as the Mechanical Lord, thus unlocking the final robot type: Power Armor Mechainfantry conversion. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 01:20
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mike12345 posted:Just did that. Sturges does nothing, and Preston Garvey gives me crap settlement missions. Read somewhere you need like 8 settlements for the minutemen and you needed to give Sturges a copy of the data when you made the teleporter(maybe). But the minutemen side is the only side you can not kill because Preston is immortal.
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Jan 4, 2018 01:31
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Tenzarin posted:Read somewhere you need like 8 settlements for the minutemen and you needed to give Sturges a copy of the data when you made the teleporter(maybe). But the minutemen side is the only side you can not kill because Preston is immortal. I googled a bit, and apparently it's bugged. But whatever, I finished with railroad, I just didn't like that the institute gets blown up. I thought there's a way to liberate it, and give control to another faction. Meh.
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Jan 4, 2018 01:38
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mike12345 posted:I googled a bit, and apparently it's bugged. But whatever, I finished with railroad, I just didn't like that the institute gets blown up. I thought there's a way to liberate it, and give control to another faction. Meh. I thought I once saw a mod that lets you convince the Railroad to lie low while you become the duly appointed autocrat of the Institute (on the basis of Director of the Institute is a heavy title, and the Railroad's seen your work, and they still trust you with command of their nemesis for some reason known maybe to God but certainly not to anyone else), but I don't think I've seen one where you can do a hostile takeover of the Institute rather than blow it up in any other faction's endgame.
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Jan 4, 2018 01:46
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mike12345 posted:I googled a bit, and apparently it's bugged. But whatever, I finished with railroad, I just didn't like that the institute gets blown up. I thought there's a way to liberate it, and give control to another faction. Meh. You can finish as the mintemen they got their own quests and everything, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Nuclear_Option_(Minutemen).
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Jan 4, 2018 08:36
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I played about 14h of Fallout 4 and got bored. Now I want to get back to it. I'll simply ignore the base construction from now on I think. And try not to OCD about the power armor and stuff. Or should I try to collect all the power armor bits? I see that the DLC are still on sale. Is any of them worth grabbing? I hear Far Harbor is huge, and Nuka World looks fun. Are there any non game-breaking mods that people recommend? Quality of life stuff? Or vanilla game is good enough? E: God damnit, they still force you to use your X360 controller if it's connected to your computer? 
Furism fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 09:12
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Far Harbour is the best of Fallout 4. Nuka World is... not, unless you really like murder roleplay. There are many QoL mods but I'm not at home.
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Jan 4, 2018 09:27
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Btw, if I liked the sneaky & stabby playstyle of FO4, would Metal Gear Solid V be my jam? I'm not familiar with the MGS franchise, but thought it might be similar.
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Jan 4, 2018 10:02
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Furism posted:E: God damnit, they still force you to use your X360 controller if it's connected to your computer? I think you're still good with the keyboard? Just all the help text will use X360 buttons. Also there's one thing I don't think you can actually do with mouse and keyboard, which is walk yourself around in settlement mode, since normal movement controls get overwritten to browse the placement menus with keyboard but they go on the D-pad of a controller. Though I think you can still hold the interact key to move what you're trying to place around instead of you. For QoL you will probably want at least DEF_UI and a sorting mod, like Valdacil's, that drastically expands the UI space for inventory and puts friendly little icons in front of most things' names so they all group together. You will probably also want the settlement attack dialog box because otherwise you'll be in the middle of a fight when you get a transient quest notice that one of your settlements is getting rolled, completely miss it, and then come back to find everything broken and everything you left there gone. Better Mod Descriptions is also a good idea if you want to know the numbers behind all the things you're sticking on your weapons and armor rather than just "better hip-fire accuracy shorter range".
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Jan 4, 2018 10:04
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MikeJF posted:Far Harbour is the best of Fallout 4. Nuka World is... not, unless you really like murder roleplay. What about Automatron? I always hated Robots in Fallout (because I tend to not specialize in laser or whatever the appropriate weapon type is) but they seem to look very cool in that DLC. And it's $5. Is it worth it? Glazius posted:I think you're still good with the keyboard? Just all the help text will use X360 buttons. Thanks!
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Jan 4, 2018 10:22
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Furism posted:I played about 14h of Fallout 4 and got bored. Now I want to get back to it. I'll simply ignore the base construction from now on I think. And try not to OCD about the power armor and stuff. Or should I try to collect all the power armor bits? Power armor is annoyingly linear with its upgrades, and it's actually cheaper to go from Mark 1 to Mark VI than Mark V to Mark VI, and most power armor drops are leveled loot. So it's perfectly fine to ignore PA for most of the game. One suggestion though: get good at shooting power armor cores out of enemy suits. That makes them leave the suit entirely, which means more a free full suit instead of a few drops after killing them. There's a few unique pieces you can wiki, but most of them are either DLC or lategame rewards for a certain faction. Nuka World has a free Mark V X-01 suit with a custom paint job; it's not a good DLC but if you get that suit the only remaining upgrade is bringing it to Mark VI Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 14:51
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Automatron is fun if you like kitbashing together robots. For a few bucks I'd say you'll probably have fun with it.
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