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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah that's all fine. The New Republic fleet wasn't a large military force like the Grand Army of the old Republic or the Empire's navy. The entire fleet was in orbit around Hosnian Prime. The whole deal with the New Republic is that they were super hands off, and yeah...the entire governmental apparatus was based in the Hosnian system. When that blew up, the majority of what was left are just local planetary governments.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:44
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah that's all fine. That is why Lei should have just been a commander of the New Republic in charge of dealing with this particular threat while also having other threats that forced the republic to divert funds and divide its attention like rebellions to keep it simple. Would make more sense and would definitely make a large strike shattering the Republic make more sense. Have the first order pick up some pieces making them stronger than resistance but not Empire level power. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 20:51
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This thread is rapidly becoming insufferable on the level of anything in CD. Jesus.
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Jan 3, 2018 21:06
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CharlestheHammer posted:Not within their own state no as it's loving stupid. Unbelievably, jivjov is right. It's not just realistic for a government to sponsor a resistance group against a foe without declaring war on the foe themselves; it's incredibly commonplace. The US armed and crewed the Flying Tigers fighting Japan in China, because the US didn't want to get involved in open war. The US sent pilots, money, and equipment to Britain to fight Germany. The US loves to prop up rebellions against regimes it doesn't like (in Libya and Syria, for example). The US armed the mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. The US is a big supporter of Taiwan. The US armed and funded right-wing terrorists in Italy. The US sponsored an invasion of Cuba. The US supported the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. The - well, you get the point. The idea that the New Republic would avoid open war but instead (probably through the actions of a few sympathetic senators) fund a bunch of die-hard Rebels to go fight the First Order with plausible deniability is extremely realistic and good.
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Jan 3, 2018 21:10
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So why didn't the Alliance just point an empty cruiser at the Death Star and jump to lightspeed?
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Jan 3, 2018 21:11
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mdemone posted:So why didn't the Alliance just point an empty cruiser at the Death Star and jump to lightspeed? The Death Star's gravity would  Holdo's maneuver was only possible due to the large realspace distance to the target, the Supremacy's size as a target, the Supremacy's relative lack of a mass shadow due to sub-lunar mass, luck, the Force, and . All clearly explained in the New Canon Revised Guide to Warfare, nerd
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Jan 3, 2018 21:14
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General Battuta posted:Unbelievably, jivjov is right. It's not just realistic for a government to sponsor a resistance group against a foe without declaring war on the foe themselves; it's incredibly commonplace. Jivjov is not right and it's not realistic. A government would never, ever fund a resistance group against a domestic enemy. As that is pointlessly stupid. If it's so realistic give me one example, just one.
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Jan 3, 2018 21:51
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CharlestheHammer posted:Jivjov is not right and it's not realistic. Did...did you not read the post you just quoted? Also, the First Order isn't a domestic enemy. They're a separate military power.
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Jan 3, 2018 21:56
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Arming the Kurds to fight Isil? Back to star wars but I find it amusing in a dark way that a demilitarized galaxy is actually way more dangerous than when they had standing navies numbering in the thousands. With how convenient hyperspace travel is, especially with forty years of advancement since the end of the civil war, it only takes one destroyer to jump into a system, bombard a planet and jump out again without retaliation. Maybe they defeat the first order in the next movie and then whatever trilogy Johnson is working on could focus on various minor powers in the galaxy rearming to defend themselves. But since the threat of the first order is ended, they instead begin engaging in border wars, and the impartial Jedi under Rey move to defend the helpless people caught up in these fiefdom wars. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 21:57
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah that's all fine. reading the supplementary poo poo, the republic is basically in tatters, they had no real centralized fleet outside the home fleet(which got dead) some some of the poo poo the resistance had. after the killing of the capital system. the first order basicaly started taking planets and the pro imperial planets took up their banner, the giant corporation didnt give gently caress because money is money and a bunch of planets just surrendered.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:01
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CharlestheHammer posted:Jivjov is not right and it's not realistic. I can't speak for the US, but there are plenty of conspiracy theories that the British government covertly provided material assistance to various loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. That's the only example that occurs to me. At the very least, there is evidence to suggest that elements within the British army, MI5 and the Royal Ulster Constabulary may have colluded with the Ulster Volunteer Force. I'm sorry to say that there were occasions when they looked the other way when the loyalist groups carried out reprisal attacks against members of the IRA and civilians within the nationalist community. Granted, this ran parallel to official anti-terrorist operations by the regular security forces which made up the bulk of operations in Northern Ireland. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 22:05
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jivjov posted:Did...did you not read the post you just quoted? Also, the First Order isn't a domestic enemy. They're a separate military power. Do you know what domestic is. Because not one of those examples are domestic, while the first order explicitly is.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:Do you know what domestic is. Are you defining the entire GFFA as one nation?
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Jan 3, 2018 22:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:With how convenient hyperspace travel is, especially with forty years of advancement since the end of the civil war, it only takes one destroyer to jump into a system, bombard a planet and jump out again without retaliation. And what advancement would that be? Everything seems to indicate that the technology level in Star Wars has been more or less static for thousands of years. The only new thing they can really do is get together the funding and/or political will to build things BIGGER than ever before (e.g. Death Star, Starkiller Base). But all the basic technologies have been around for a long time. Hyperdrives, turbolasers, shields, repulsorlifts, superlasers, droids, holograms, and everything else. Fashions change, so things might look a bit different (compare an N-1 to an X-Wing), but functionally, not a whole lot has changed for a very long time.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:13
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jivjov posted:Are you defining the entire GFFA as one nation? ......what I mean what else are they.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:15
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CharlestheHammer posted:......what The First Order explicitly is not part of the Republic. They're not trying to bring down the Republic from within. They're foreign aggressors, not domestic terrorists.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:18
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Powered Descent posted:And what advancement would that be? Well for one, now you can talk to people while they're in hyperspace, hyperjump from and to all sorts of places you couldn't before, shoot a laser through hyperspace, and hyperspace trips seem to be a couple orders of magnitude faster. I mean, it's all because of Plot, sure. But if you take it on face value, they really had a generational leap in FTL tech.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:......what I think the implication is that the Republic (old and new) doesn't encompass the entire galaxy and the First Order is based in parts of space not controlled by the Republic. I think the events of TFA are meant to represent their first actual attack on the Republic (sort of like if the Nazis had a revealed they had a nuclear bomb and dropped it on London on 2 September 1939, I suppose) directly but it's poorly communicated in the movie, as has been discussed at length both here and elsewhere.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:18
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Dapper_Swindler posted:reading the supplementary poo poo, the republic is basically in tatters, they had no real centralized fleet outside the home fleet(which got dead) some some of the poo poo the resistance had. after the killing of the capital system. the first order basicaly started taking planets and the pro imperial planets took up their banner, the giant corporation didnt give gently caress because money is money and a bunch of planets just surrendered. Ok, that makes sense at least. I just think the Republic having no real military is really lame though and that story decision must have been chosen so they could go back to the old status quo. I kind of feel like doing that kind of shits all over the original trilogy. The whole thing about freeing the galaxy and restoring the Jedi seems kind of for nothing if all crumbles again within 30 years.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:23
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CharlestheHammer posted:Jivjov is not right and it's not realistic. Read the post you just replied to. The First Order are a foreign government, not part of the Republic - they're the hardcore Imperial 'remnant'. They have their own government, their own territory, their own fleet. They're in no way domestic. But you're wrong either way, since governments are very happy to fund resistance groups against domestic foes. The US occupation authority dumped bucketfuls of money on the Kurds to support their fight against the 'insurgency' (and later ISIS), in spite of the Kurds basically being a separatist state.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:26
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Ceebees posted:Well for one, now you can talk to people while they're in hyperspace, hyperjump from and to all sorts of places you couldn't before, shoot a laser through hyperspace, and hyperspace trips seem to be a couple orders of magnitude faster. That, plus the ability to track ships through Hyperspace without the need for a homing beacon, thereby negating the need to set up ambushes with gravity well projectors. You can just let them jump to their heart's content and be on their rear end a half hour later.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:34
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Ceebees posted:Well for one, now you can talk to people while they're in hyperspace, hyperjump from and to all sorts of places you couldn't before, shoot a laser through hyperspace, and hyperspace trips seem to be a couple orders of magnitude faster. Let's take that one by one. "talk to people while they're in hyperspace" -- Was there a time in previous movies when they needed to? "hyperjump from and to all sorts of places you couldn't before" -- I admit that the Falcon's jump to into the atmosphere of Starkiller Base was new. But the implication there was more "no one ever does this because it's suicidally dangerous", not "check out this brand new capability that was just invented". Besides, the Falcon probably wouldn't have the latest and greatest hardware anyway, especially since it had just spent who-knows-how-many years as a "garbage" hangar queen. "shoot a laser through hyperspace" -- Admittedly we haven't seen this before. But again, there's nothing to indicate that they've just invented a galaxy-changing new technology; instead they're just crowing about how big and bad they've built their new weapon. "hyperspace trips seem to be a couple orders of magnitude faster" -- No they don't. The movies don't give us exact durations, but the trips have never seemed to take more than a few hours, no matter what the ship is or where they're going. Everyone is wearing the same clothes when they arrive. No one goes to bed. People sometimes spend the entire trip in the cockpit of a starfighter or hiding in Padme's closet.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:37
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General Battuta posted:But you're wrong either way, since governments are very happy to fund resistance groups against domestic foes. The US occupation authority dumped bucketfuls of money on the Kurds to support their fight against the 'insurgency' (and later ISIS), in spite of the Kurds basically being a separatist state. I believe his point is more that governments don't tend to support resistance movements against domestic foes within their own territory. I've tried to suggest one example that occurred to me, but it's beside the point because as far as I can tell the First Order is separate from the Republic rather than being a terrorist organisation operating within it.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:39
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For what it's worth, they talk in hyperspace a bunch in Clone Wars.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:40
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Gammatron 64 posted:The whole thing about freeing the galaxy and restoring the Jedi seems kind of for nothing if all crumbles again within 30 years.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:42
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Wheat Loaf posted:I believe his point is more that governments don't tend to support resistance movements against domestic foes within their own territory. I've tried to suggest one example that occurred to me, but it's beside the point because as far as I can tell the First Order is separate from the Republic rather than being a terrorist organisation operating within it. You're correct, he is wrong about the domesticity of the First Order; but governments trying to hold on against a powerful domestic adversary will happily get in bed with resistance movements. Even ignoring Iraq moneying the Kurds, you can look at Columbia's cops working with Los Pepes against Escobar.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:43
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Arcsquad12 posted:That, plus the ability to track ships through Hyperspace without the need for a homing beacon, thereby negating the need to set up ambushes with gravity well projectors. You can just let them jump to their heart's content and be on their rear end a half hour later. I love that this gets set up in Rogue One
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Jan 3, 2018 22:43
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Wheat Loaf posted:I believe his point is more that governments don't tend to support resistance movements against domestic foes within their own territory. I've tried to suggest one example that occurred to me, but it's beside the point because as far as I can tell the First Order is separate from the Republic rather than being a terrorist organisation operating within it. Using the concept of "foreign" and "domestic" in a huge galaxy is somewhat wrong. The "New Republic" is a collection of allied worlds. So they might span a large section of the galaxy, but they don't cover all regions, and not necessarily the individual systems within its "borders". The answer to many of these questions is just to read Bloodline, which shockingly is a Star Wars book recommendation in the Star Wars Book Barn thread. Teek fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 22:44
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Yep, the films give you the pertinent overview stuff, but any of the minute details can be found between Aftermath and Bloodline
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Jan 3, 2018 22:46
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Lord Hydronium posted:Even if the First Order is forever (which we know it won't be), I still think 30 years of a galaxy not under authoritarianism rule is better than zero. Going by the movies, the Old Republic managed at least a thousand years (Obi-Wan says the Jedi were around for "a thousand generations" but I don't remember if he says the Republic was around for that long), then the Empire lasted about 25 years (20 years between ROTS and ANH then a further five from the start of ANH to the end of ROTJ) then the New Republic manages around 30. Given that the last few years of the Old Republic had a bunch of planets run by gangsters and slavers and megacorporations with representation in the senate, I have to assume that there's a bit of a legitimacy crisis in the galaxy. Mace Windu says "The oppression of the Sith will never return" so presumably there was a Sith Empire at some point lording over everyone.
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Jan 3, 2018 22:55
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Wheat Loaf posted:Going by the movies, the Old Republic managed at least a thousand years (Obi-Wan says the Jedi were around for "a thousand generations" but I don't remember if he says the Republic was around for that long) "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire." The Republic lasting for a thousand years as per Attack of the Clones was a typo by Lucas because he was directing the movie off of a rough draft of the script that he hadn't even finished before filming started.
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Jan 3, 2018 23:12
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After which, instead of just saying "oops, a character misspoke", the people who tried to keep everything in order canon-wise decided "oh, ok, so, uh, there was like, this thing where the Republic has lasted for 20,000 years (a thousand generations), but 1,000 years ago there was a big reorganization and thus you could also reasonably say that the Republic, as it is today, has lasted only 1,000 years!" Which is of course the simpler response. Also, regarding the way the New Republic is portrayed in TFA, that's pretty obviously a bad way to do it. According to the movie, the Republic is secretly funding the Resistance, ok. The First Order blasts about five planets/moons, and a bunch of ships, ok. This causes the Entire. loving. Government. to collapse like a game of jenga. It also apparently renders most of the galaxy absolutely powerless to stop these dudes who just lost their badass superweapon, AND THE ENTIRE PLANET IT WAS BUILT IN, to some plucky rebels in starfighters, a bunch of old people, a traitor, and an untrained girl with a lightsaber. While the EU can try to pick up the pieces and make that story make sense, just going by what's in the movie it looks like we go from "the bad guys made a good first strike, but then got loving ruined" to "the bad guys rule everything and gently caress you" in the span of weeks, at most. TFA is a good movie to watch, if you want a fun time. If you try to analyze it and fit it into some sort of canon, though, it essentially makes everything all confusing because it flat out relies on multiple galaxy spanning governments and movements being loving morons. Which, admittedly, not entirely unrealistic, but still kind of eyerolling. (warning: lovely fanfic time) I feel like it could have been much better done if you had, like, the beginning situation of TFA being that the New Republic and the Empire have essentially come to a stalemate. They each hold about half the galaxy, neither has been able to get a foot up on the other for years, and the galaxy is just weary as gently caress of war. So, they've come to an unofficial truce, they're basically in a cold war, and neither is making open moves towards the other. The First Order and the Resistance are smaller off shoots of both parties; the Resistance is basically the unofficial fleet going around keeping minor groups from flaring up into actual attacks. The First Order is a bunch of hardcore Imperials who want to make a move to get the war going again, in their favor. The Empire proper doesn't support them, but they're keeping an eye on them to be like "well, let's see how this goes". Meanwhile, loyalists and sympathetic Imperials funnel them funds and stuff, because the First Order is doing war crimes level poo poo. Like, say, a superweapon that shoots through hyperspace. The Republic doesn't fund Leia much because their members don't want to go back to the war that had torn the galaxy apart for so long. They're happy to just have this semi-peace, and Leia wanting to get them to help her stamp out the First Order before they get serious sounds dumb as gently caress to them because they're just another bunch of idiots who want to go "WE ARE THE EMPIRE" before getting smacked down. Not dangerous. So Leia is basically on her own, with her little group. This lets you do pretty much the entire movie unchanged, and still move into TLJ more or less the same way. Snoke and co. lead the First Order, and when they blow the gently caress out of the Republic Capital and their defensive fleet out of loving nowhere, the Empire wastes almost no time getting themselves moving and capitalizing on the attack. Suddenly the cold war is hot as gently caress, and even though the Resistance takes down Starkiller Base, the Empire already has enough of a foothold in the confusion to start their surge. The First Order's leaders become the defacto leaders of the Imperial military because Snoke's manipulating poo poo, the loyalists love these assholes, and they got poo poo done. The Republic is headless, suddenly being pushed back, and a galaxy that was weary of war is ready to just loving roll over if they can avoid another one, fleet or no fleet. So the Empire sweeps in and basically picks up the pieces, and the First Order is the spearhead. The Resistance and other fringe groups are all that's left, because they were the ones preparing for something like this. I figure that would work a lot better, since you could easily have the Resistance have been victorious, and still explain where the First Order got enough power to basically conquer the galaxy in a week. The New Republic is still idiots, but they don't completely crumble just due to a shot to the capital and absolutely nothing else. You don't even have to do a lot of political explanations; all you have to do is say in the crawl that the New Republic and the Empire are in a stalemate, and are a powder keg waiting to go off. Jakku turns from where the Empire was crushed to where the Empire lost the last of their momentum, and was the last big battle before the stand off began. Hint in TLJ that war profiteers were funneling poo poo to the First Order to get poo poo to flare up again, and that still works too. I dunno, I just think it works. Maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe I wrote too much fanfiction over a stupid movie. Yeah, it's that last one. tl;dr: i am terrible
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Jan 3, 2018 23:50
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jivjov posted:Yep, the films give you the pertinent overview stuff, but any of the minute details can be found between Aftermath and Bloodline Is there any other supplemental reading required to understand what's going on in this children's adventure movie?
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Jan 4, 2018 00:17
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Kurui Reiten posted:tl;dr: i am terrible Retroactively, I think the original theatrical ending of RotJ works a bit better than the Spedial Edisiton Galactic celebration; specifically because the galaxy ends up kinda going to poo poo a few decades later. fridge corn posted:Is there any other supplemental reading required to understand what's going on in this children's adventure movie? None of it is required reading. The films tell you everything you need to know. The books and comics are just for people (like myself) that want more detail.
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Jan 4, 2018 00:38
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jivjov posted:None of it is required reading. The films tell you everything you need to know. The books and comics are just for people (like myself) that want more detail. Technically you're correct because you don't really need to know anything to enjoy the films. I love star wars and I definitely enjoyed watching eps 7 and 8 cuz its got cool spaceships and lasers and lightsabers and whatnot but the major political actors are never clearly established outside of good guys and bad guys and the entire plot seems incredibly contrived because of it. I read bloodlines and im glad it cleared up a few things that the films struggled to explain but it's really disappointing that the films couldn't do a better job of it themselves Like I said I love star wars and enjoyed the films but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that they have some fairly serious fundamental flaws
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Jan 4, 2018 01:00
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Lord Hydronium posted:Even if the First Order is forever (which we know it won't be), I still think 30 years of a galaxy not under authoritarianism rule is better than zero. It might as well be zero because it's not like you see any of it on film. Episode VI: Yay, we beat the Empire! The Galaxy is free! The Luke will make the Jedi Return! (Hence the title of the movie...) Episode VII: Welp, the Empire is back and they took over the Galaxy again. Oh and the Jedi are wiped out again. Oh well! That's really kind of a bummer, you know? If you watch them back to back, it takes that feeling of victory and pops it like a balloon. I'm sure the EU will fill in the gaps of the in-between years, but that's not really the point. It almost feels like there's another, way more interesting movie trilogy set between episodes VI and VII. I think I'd rather see those movies. I would have probably been somewhat okay with the Empire taking over again if they had did it in Episode X instead. Maybe episodes VII-IX should have just been X-XII instead. Kurui Reiten posted:I dunno, I just think it works. Maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe I wrote too much fanfiction over a stupid movie. You're not an idiot. That's exactly what they should have done but didn't. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 02:26
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I think the one big weakness of the sequel trilogy is holding to the real world time gap from 1983 to 2015. All the stuff that happened in between VI and VII is really fascinating by implication, but we most likely will never see it in film form.
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Jan 4, 2018 02:44
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If Zahn can come back and rework Thrawn to fit canon, we can get KJA to rewrite the Jedi Academy trilogy with some nameswaps. Dorsk 81, Knight of Ren
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Jan 4, 2018 02:56
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Powered Descent posted:"hyperspace trips seem to be a couple orders of magnitude faster" -- No they don't. I'm just talking about TFA here. TLJ tones it back down into something that considers making narrative sense, but as far as the screenplay is concerned, Jakku, Moz's planet, Rebelsistance Base Planet, and Starkiller are each about 30 seconds away from each other. I'm probably misremembering, but i feel like in the scene before the new neo death star run, Poe is actually having a conversation or giving a speech before they jump to lightspeed, which continues for the entire transit to Starkiller, and ends in normal space again. Like i said, I know that the actual reason for these little jarring notes is that Abrams doesn't care about that kind of thing, against telling a fast-paced story where the characters bounce off each other a lot. And that can be fun, and it doesn't make it a bad movie, but... coming up with a narrative reason why things might be the way they are in the film isn't worldbuilding anymore. It's not gardening, it's cutting your fig leaf into a pretty shape.
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Jan 4, 2018 03:04
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Ingmar terdman posted:, we can get KJA to rewrite the Jedi Academy trilogy with some nameswaps. Dorsk 81, Knight of Ren This would not be a good thing.
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Jan 4, 2018 03:19
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