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Alright I watched K. Waste's Man of Steel video. Couple comments: * I don't like the voice mask thing and would much prefer he spoke normally, although I understand the desire to avoid becoming A Youtube Personality * You may call it Samson imagery, but it is CLEARLY Sephiroth imagery in that shot * Man of Steel is absolutely a power fantasy. In fact I posit that it is a much more effective and affecting power fantasy than any of the weak poo poo Marvel's peddling. The raw, apocalyptic strength which Clark holds back and holds back and holds back and finally unleashes when pushed past his breaking point/when forced to by unavoidable circumstance is all the more awesome for the metaphorical and literal shockwaves it sends through the movie. It's power that outreaches perception, even when your perception includes super-hearing and x-ray vision. Man of Steel, and I used these metaphors on this forum literal years ago but I'm doing it again here, is like a Hellboy story in which Hellboy has to let his horns grow in to unleash his full demon powers against an otherwise unbeatable foe, or an alternate Lord of the Rings in which Galadriel has no choice but to take up the One Ring and do epic wizard battle against Sauron.
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Jan 4, 2018 04:29
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I watched BvS in spite of what I said and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. It was too long, lots of it made no sense, and the quality of writing varied wildly from scene to scene and character to character, but it had good parts. One thing that really surprised me is how people said Superman wasn't moral there's a part right before the final boss where a guy who just tried to burn Superman's mom alive created a monster specifically to kill Superman, and the monster's about to kill him instead, and without a moment's hesitation Superman flies in front of the punch and saves Lex. That's who Superman's supposed to be. This is why, no matter how flawed BvS can be, it is still a good movie to me. It gets Superman in a way so few others dare to. That moment goes without comment, without acknowledgement. It is the most heroic moment in the entire movie and justifies all of the studio meddling the film got saddled with. Some one was in danger and Superman saved them without a second thought. It doesn't matter who they were, it never should matter. But Superman doesn't smile enough so he's grim and dark and dour and a bad Superman. Glad they fixed that with Justice League boy howdy
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Jan 4, 2018 04:44
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Timby posted:Which cut did you watch? I think it was the long one because the total runtime was 3 hours 2 minutes.
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Jan 4, 2018 04:52
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Ferrinus posted:* Man of Steel is absolutely a power fantasy. In fact I posit that it is a much more effective and affecting power fantasy than any of the weak poo poo Marvel's peddling. The raw, apocalyptic strength which Clark holds back and holds back and holds back and finally unleashes when pushed past his breaking point/when forced to by unavoidable circumstance is all the more awesome for the metaphorical and literal shockwaves it sends through the movie. It's power that outreaches perception, even when your perception includes super-hearing and x-ray vision. Man of Steel, and I used these metaphors on this forum literal years ago but I'm doing it again here, is like a Hellboy story in which Hellboy has to let his horns grow in to unleash his full demon powers against an otherwise unbeatable foe, or an alternate Lord of the Rings in which Galadriel has no choice but to take up the One Ring and do epic wizard battle against Sauron. I get what you're saying here, but I feel like by attempting to compare Man of Steel to these hypothetical movies, you're already demonstrating what's crucially missing in your critical use of the term "power fantasy." In the hypothetical Hellboy or Lord of the Rings scenario you propose, these are obviously power fantasies simply by virtue of their abstraction. You're writing in terms of the characters taking up some transgressive force (demon horns, the ring) that they are otherwise forbidden to use, so that they can stop a big evil. Man of Steel is certainly exhilarating in terms of what lengths the filmmakers go to emphasize the powers at play here and their potential consequences. As you note, a big part of it is about these powers reaching beyond human perception, something as minor as, rather than cutting from one shot to another, the camera whip pans as Clark goes tumbling down a city block, and by the time we re-stage, the character is already way in the background crashing into something. The integral part of a power fantasy, however, is that it functions as wish-fulfillment. A power fantasy is not merely exhilaration or awe in the presence of great power - which, in this case, is just awe in the presence of great art. A power fantasy is a projection that allows the author or spectator to experience power, not without consequence, but with the essential caveat that the use of power puts an end to transgressive otherness and restores the status quo. A power fantasy is motivated by the identification of an aberration in the symbolic order, and is an unconscious, reactionary means of correcting/curing/repressing it. So when you say your hypothetical Hellboy and Lord of the Rings are power fantasies, this is certainly true, because no other aspects besides the superficial extent of the power demonstrated significantly parallel the narrative structure of Man of Steel. It is true, Clark certainly experiences a sense of liberation and empowerment at multiple points in the movie as a result of finally being allowed to let loose and learn to control his powers. But during the actual conflict, there is no liberation. Clark spends the last act of the movie getting mercilessly clowned on and just barely being able to stop the big evil. And when he does stop the big evil, it's not only that the emphasis of the scene is his shame and sense of personal failure, but also that, in the very next scene, we get a concrete demonstration that the 'natural order' has not been restored. Because even though Zod and his cronies are dead, Clark still lives. As Clark's father impresses upon him in the barn scene, this is not the story of the natural order being saved from a wicked Other. It's the story of humanity facing a reckoning with its very place on the Earth and in the universe. And this reckoning - this stand-off between the general and the Superman - will organically accelerate as long as the vessel of this power persists. There's no going back.
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Jan 4, 2018 05:02
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Snowman_McK posted:Every Frame is a Paint or the other guy? Who is the other guy? I want to laugh at him. Folding Ideas. The MSJ posted:Watch K.Waste's Man of Steel video, y'all. K.Waste this video is incredibly good
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Jan 4, 2018 05:20
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Pirate Jet posted:“Superhero stories must be inherently optimistic” is a very surprisingly common take. It’s also a good way to tell whether to stop listening to someone’s opinions. I found myself explaining Animal Man to a room full of people in their 60's last week. Their reactions were interesting.
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Jan 4, 2018 05:28
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I found myself explaining Animal Man to a room full of people in their 60's last week. Their reactions were interesting. Did anyone mention that the real animal is man
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Jan 4, 2018 05:37
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Is he a cousin of shirtless bear fighter or namwolf
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Jan 4, 2018 06:34
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It's a comic book about a socially-conscious everyman superhero whose family is killed, he does peyote and realizes he's a character in a book, then he goes on a metatextual odyssey to track down the author and demand to know why he was made to suffer. It's real good.
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Jan 4, 2018 06:39
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K. Waste posted:The integral part of a power fantasy, however, is that it functions as wish-fulfillment. A power fantasy is not merely exhilaration or awe in the presence of great power - which, in this case, is just awe in the presence of great art. A power fantasy is a projection that allows the author or spectator to experience power, not without consequence, but with the essential caveat that the use of power puts an end to transgressive otherness and restores the status quo. A power fantasy is motivated by the identification of an aberration in the symbolic order, and is an unconscious, reactionary means of correcting/curing/repressing it. I don't think a power fantasy is inherently reactionary. If our POV character discovers and unleashes some kind of world-rocking personal quality, and now nothing is going to be the same, and arguably things are even worse than before because we've called up something we can't put down... that's certainly different than murking 100% terrorists and 0% civvies with our skull-gun, but I'd still call both fantasies about possessing and unleashing power to some end or other. They still render the wielder of that power an awesome and terrifying figure, give voice to something that person was suppressing and wreak some kind of change they otherwise couldn't have, etc. And it's not like MoS doesn't end on a hopeful note. Like, I took Superman's antagonism with the US military and the destruction of their assets as basically an unalloyed good.
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Jan 4, 2018 07:01
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I watched BvS in spite of what I said and it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. It was too long, lots of it made no sense, and the quality of writing varied wildly from scene to scene and character to character, but it had good parts.
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Jan 4, 2018 07:41
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BiggerBoat posted:I think the fundamental arguments are the same. I remember when Michael Keaton was announced as Batman and nerds flipped their poo poo. When Ledger was first revealed the arguments against him were quite similar. That's just one example. 
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Jan 4, 2018 07:42
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Ferrinus posted:I don't think a power fantasy is inherently reactionary. If our POV character discovers and unleashes some kind of world-rocking personal quality, and now nothing is going to be the same, and arguably things are even worse than before because we've called up something we can't put down... that's certainly different than murking 100% terrorists and 0% civvies with our skull-gun, but I'd still call both fantasies about possessing and unleashing power to some end or other. They still render the wielder of that power an awesome and terrifying figure, give voice to something that person was suppressing and wreak some kind of change they otherwise couldn't have, etc. A power fantasy is inherently antisocial and authoritarian -- it's the suggestion that problems can be solved power was consolidated in an individual -- the self, to be precise -- rather than through collaboration, or more realistically that things cannot be made better, but through inner strength and the support of others we are able to cope with an imperfect world. This isn't to say that power fantasies are immoral, the onus is on the viewer to think critically and be a thoughtful consumer of media. Man of Steel is not a power fantasy. The thesis is not even so much about the awful responsibility of power -- this is more of a theme in BvS. It's that wanting to live in a world where we need gods and superheroes to save us is a foolish desire; it's basically the inverse of a power fantasy. Clark's regret is that he is needed, and I think a lot of people have misread that regret as him "not wanting to save people" or whatever such nonsense. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 09:45
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Snowman_McK posted:Every Frame is a Paint or the other guy? Who is the other guy? I want to laugh at him. Waffles Inc. posted:Folding Ideas. I posted a link to one of his videos here in the last thread and Folding Ideas joins the discussion on the next page.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:03
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Finally able to watch the K waste cut, a lot of things are really made clear. This is all kind of live tweet style, so pardon the format. Jimmy Olson's death really hammers home that this isn't your daddy's Superman, but not in a gently caress yeah way, more like, it shouldn't be taken for granted that he will save you, which Lois even has an issue with. If you watch every scene like Lex has seen the script up until Martha, and he's just bursting to brag about being awesome, it's makes the movie really fun. Lex already plans to kill the senator when she says no, right when he talks about the painting, so the party inviting Clark and bats was to get Clark to know who Batman was, "i love bringing people together." Mercy already knew Batman was Bruce, so they're letting him take the info so that he can use the kryptonite, since Lex doesn't have clearance legally, which is further confirmed by him grinning at the batarang later. The Jon Stewart clip plays like fanboy/the people's entitlement this time around, to pair with the Stanwick scene that just happened, where Superman is described as a rogue combatant going against the government's wishes. I wasn't really feeling the beginning of the scene with red lit batcave, but then it went from wide to close during the 1% speech and all became clear. The car chase scene plays so much better now. And it's clear we're supposed to not like bats in this scene, because he's full on villain at this point, Superman coming in to stop him confirms this. I'm hoping the conversation around perspectives and expectations that Star wars 8 is bringing about, really has people go back and check this movie out in a different light. I'm going to need some citations on better villain themes than Lex's, because besides the emperor, I'm coming up short. Don't know if I agree with the wonder woman file scene cut. I understand it might play better initially, but I love the balls and audacity to do it right there. Its like a moment of veritas where it fully shows her actions. I think dropping it to the end is stinger territory and too marvel setup for the next one. I like that you have to sit in this truth. And this movie is gorgeous. The scene at the lake front property is immaculate. From the transitions between inside shots to outside looking in, to Jeremy irons wardrobe against the white windows. The wardrobe is general is on point, that "my world doesn't exist anymore" scene, especially. Thank you K waste for your efforts. I hope someone sent this to Snyder. I'd say send this to naysayers, but if they can't get over Murderbats, they still won't like this movie.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:30
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I like how Bruce lives in a glass house but goes around casting stones.
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Jan 4, 2018 16:25
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K. Waste posted:Let's take a moment to pay tribute to the little guys, specifically this kid having to pull off a face of both shame and pity, and knocking it out of the park. it just kinda looks like he farted
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Jan 4, 2018 16:26
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Walter Hamada, producer of the Conjuring films, 47 Ronin and close collaborator of James Wan has been named the new boss of DC films. Johns is in an advisory role and he will work closely with Hamada on future DC projects. http://variety.com/2018/film/news/warner-bros-taps-walter-hamada-to-oversee-dc-films-production-exclusive-1202652878/
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Jan 4, 2018 17:28
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bushisms.txt posted:The car chase scene plays so much better now. And it's clear we're supposed to not like bats in this scene, because he's full on villain at this point, Superman coming in to stop him confirms this. I meant to make a big effortpost ages ago comparing the car chase from BvS to the Kal El v Zod fight through Metropolis from MoS but I never got around to it. I was pretty sure there were too many similarities to be coincidental (exploding tanker truck, futuristic vehicle smashing indiscriminately through buildings, people trapped by smashed twisted metal, etc etc) but this shot especially reminded me of the heat beams slicing through buildings just before the Kryptonians burst out of them: https://i.imgur.com/TzhRzEx.gifv The implication being that Bruce has become what he most hates and fears in his vendetta against Superman, just on a smaller/human scale. The difference here is that a greater power actually steps in and stops the carnage which is no doubt what Bruce wanted to happen when he was forced to stand by and watch helplessly as the Metropolis battle raged around him.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:29
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drat, good points Snowglobe
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Jan 4, 2018 17:32
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Walter Hamada, producer of the Conjuring films, 47 Ronin and close collaborator of James Wan has been named the new boss of DC films. Johns is in an advisory role and he will work closely with Hamada on future DC projects. Is this the guy who thought to digitally include Keanu into the US version of 47 Ronin? Oh boy. (Not that I'm against putting Keanu in more movies, but y'know what I'm getting at.) Edit: That is a great point Snowglobe. Never thought of it that way. It might have been the first time Superman was able to quickly and concisely end a big moment of human created carnage.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:32
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Detective No. 27 posted:Is this the guy who thought to digitally include Keanu into the US version of 47 Ronin? Oh boy. Digitally include? Didn't he star in that?
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Jan 4, 2018 17:35
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Huh. I swear that was the one where they added him for the US release and re-edited the entire movie around his character.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:40
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Detective No. 27 posted:Huh. I swear that was the one where they added him for the US release and re-edited the entire movie around his character. He was always part of the production but they pretty much did re-edit the film so it revolved around him much more. His character originally didn't take part in the big climactic battle scene and the studio wrested control from the director and added Reeves into it, plus a whole bunch of other changes: https://www.thewrap.com/universal-pulls-47-ronin-director-budget-swells-225m-exclusive-57111/
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Jan 4, 2018 17:44
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Detective No. 27 posted:Huh. I swear that was the one where they added him for the US release and re-edited the entire movie around his character. He was always in it, they just re-edited it for US Release to make him the protagonist, even though he wasn't at all. I'm not sure if that was Hamada's decision or not, though it may have been. As we saw with Suicide Squad WB will re-edit something whenever they want even if they have to bring in an outside company to do it.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:45
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Ah. I guess my memory exaggerated what happened.
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Jan 4, 2018 17:46
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My feeling is that the only scene in Man of Steel that's a genuine power fantasy is the flight scene, which is interestingly enough the part that many haters call "the real Superman part of the film with all the requisite joy and blah blah blah"
Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 17:48
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Mechafunkzilla posted:A power fantasy is inherently antisocial and authoritarian -- it's the suggestion that problems can be solved power was consolidated in an individual -- the self, to be precise -- rather than through collaboration, or more realistically that things cannot be made better, but through inner strength and the support of others we are able to cope with an imperfect world. This isn't to say that power fantasies are immoral, the onus is on the viewer to think critically and be a thoughtful consumer of media. I would phrase it differently. The awful responsibility of power weighs REALLY heavily on Jon Kent, and, actually, movie's thematic thrust is probably that we ALL labor under the awful burden of power - that as a people, we can't help but produce and wield the kind of world-shaking might that in MoS is incarnated in a single person, and so we had better think very hard about what kind of world we build and what kind of lessons we teach that world's people so that when they do ball their fists and act the final result resembles Clark rather than Zod. It's why we always see normal, anonymous people take morally significant actions before Clark himself does. It's not that we don't need superheroes - it's that we're getting them whether we like it or not. That's why I think MoS is a thoughtful and generally progressive power fantasy - the context that it puts the protagonist's power in, the moral statements it makes about it, and so on. However, the movie is about one incredibly strong guy and how he puts that strength to use, rather than a mass movement or something.
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Jan 4, 2018 18:23
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Jan 4, 2018 18:29
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Ferrinus posted:I would phrase it differently. The awful responsibility of power weighs REALLY heavily on Jon Kent, and, actually, movie's thematic thrust is probably that we ALL labor under the awful burden of power - that as a people, we can't help but produce and wield the kind of world-shaking might that in MoS is incarnated in a single person, and so we had better think very hard about what kind of world we build and what kind of lessons we teach that world's people so that when they do ball their fists and act the final result resembles Clark rather than Zod. It's why we always see normal, anonymous people take morally significant actions before Clark himself does. It's not that we don't need superheroes - it's that we're getting them whether we like it or not. My own take is that the progressiveness and thoughtfulness is what stop the film from being a power fantasy. Just because a film features people with fantastical powers doesn't mean it's a power fantasy, there's a necessary element of escapism which is mostly missing from MoS. The meat of the genre is pretty much "Oh man, if I only had the means I'd sure show them!" The Dirty Harry movies are power fantasies, as are the Bronson Death Wish movies. First Blood isn't but the Rambo films that followed it are. Pretty much all the Marvel movies are as well. The scene at the end of Justice League where Superman turns up at the last minute and easily defeats the big bad villain with a cheeky grin and a quip was a power fantasy, the scene in MoS where he defeats Zod at great cost to himself and Metropolis and ends up on his knees crying out in anguish at what he was forced to do wasn't.
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Jan 4, 2018 18:53
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Well frankly I think surviving being tackled through buildings and then responding with an orbital piledriver is pretty loving sick regardless of surrounding context.
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Jan 4, 2018 18:55
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Ferrinus posted:Well frankly I think surviving being tackled through buildings and then responding with an orbital piledriver is pretty loving sick regardless of surrounding context. Context makes all the difference.  Edit: compare the end of the fight with Zod in MoS to the end of the fight with Zod in Superman 2 - the musical cues, the emotional reactions, etc etc.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_93l5q7AWDM  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0  Note that I didn't deliberately pick the video with the title "Greatest Superman Moment Ever", that's just how that uploader felt about a scene where Superman and Lois murder three people and smirk about it. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jan 4, 2018 |
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Jan 4, 2018 18:58
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:My own take is that the progressiveness and thoughtfulness is what stop the film from being a power fantasy. Just because a film features people with fantastical powers doesn't mean it's a power fantasy, there's a necessary element of escapism which is mostly missing from MoS. The meat of the genre is pretty much "Oh man, if I only had the means I'd sure show them!" The Dirty Harry movies are power fantasies, as are the Bronson Death Wish movies. First Blood isn't but the Rambo films that followed it are. Pretty much all the Marvel movies are as well. No, but the scene of him totally owing that truck driver by impaling his truck was the very definition of a power fantasy.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:05
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Davros1 posted:No, but the scene of him totally owing that truck driver by impaling his truck was the very definition of a power fantasy. It's also demonstrating that Clark is still a very human person. That is something I adore about the movies- Clark is a human being, with petty wants and desires. It makes what he sacrifices all the stronger because you KNOW how he feels most of the time.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:10
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Davros1 posted:No, but the scene of him totally owing that truck driver by impaling his truck was the very definition of a power fantasy. Right, and as with the flight scene, it's a power fantasy that objectively accomplishes nothing. It's even only nominally a power fantasy because it doesn't restore the 'natural order' of a supposedly just world. It's a petty act of revenge that then immediately cuts to Clark once again on the highway, a homeless loner, with nothing but the frigid climes ahead of him. Ironically, he's even attempting to hitchhike, but the truck passes him over. Despite portraying the truck driver in the bar as an all-around lovely person, the filmmakers are nonetheless sympathetic to both him and Clark. His reaction to seeing his truck isn't one of horror. It's that moment of confusion where he doesn't even understand if what he's seeing is real, or how he's seeing it, or what this now potentially means for his livelihood. As with everything else in the film, the emphasis is not on the superficial display of power, but upon the consequence that signifies that there is still no justice, no restoration of any optimal natural order.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:11
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Context makes all the difference. Certainly it means that MoS isn't a liberal or reactionary power fantasy, and one that doesn't fall into a lot of traps that more nakedly escapist ones do. But like I've said, everything that the context does to defuse or subvert the power fantasy from one perspective actually heightens it from another. The more attention is paid to struggle and consequences and difficulty and imprecision, the more real the whole thing feels. The super-strength and super-speed of Clark Kent become that much easier to imagine, feel out, and take seriously when they're so solidly grounded in the real world. I guess a lot of this is pure quibbling over terminology because I don't think anyone in this discussion substantively disagrees over what happens in the movie or what the thematic significance of those happenings is. I'm just inclined to use the phrase "power fantasy" to refer to a more visceral, fistpump-inducing depiction of personal power regardless of what the artwork goes on to say about that power - and in my experience, drawbacks, fuckups, horror elements, etc. act to spice up, not shut down, the basic appeal of being able to punch through walls.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:19
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Note also that all this has a HUGE amount to do with people's "Not my Superman" reactions. They were expecting some light power fantasy escapism but instead they got a film about how the responsibility of having super powers would be an incredible burden.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:22
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At the time I thought it was too spicy, but the way Clark's childhood is basically described like that of an autistic child is surprisingly well done.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:23
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Note also that all this has a HUGE amount to do with people's "Not my Superman" reactions. They were expecting some light power fantasy escapism but instead they got a film about how the responsibility of having super powers would be an incredible burden. It's more amazing to people who enjoyed the MoS and BvS now cry "Not my Superman" in response to JL.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:25
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Davros1 posted:No, but the scene of him totally owing that truck driver by impaling his truck was the very definition of a power fantasy. A more complete power fantasy would have ended with Clark confronting the truck driver in person, as in Superman 2. There is a difference between, a fantasy which involves people using power, and what we specifically call a power fantasy. I'm not sure how better to describe the difference than K. Waste already has.
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Jan 4, 2018 19:26
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