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Ze Pollack posted:as opposed to the current situation, where the democrats who thought Obamacare was the limits of possibility greivously miscalculated, and lost pretty much all political power to a senile used car salesman. It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend. I agree that it is a necessary goal, but you guys are just going crazy. I come from a country with UHC and it isn't a "happily ever after" story as right-wingers continually defund it and left-wingers restore funding (inadequately) when they have power. You wouldn't be happy.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:22
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Democrazy posted:I mean, if you want to hold that a measure[that lost by 59 points is secretly popular and that it’s supporters could not have done anything different or that could do nothing different in the future, that’s on you. But that’s an article of faith. we've already said things could've been done differently and should be done differently in the future. the problem here is that you believe, with no real world evidence to back you up, that dem opposition had 0 effect on the vote, and therefore that measures taken to prevent or combat that in the future would be entirely uneffective. dunno why you keep pretending to support single payer at this point. it's p obvious you're reaching for whatever bullshit you can to declare it unwanted and impossible
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Jan 4, 2018 23:23
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BarbarianElephant posted:It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend.  as someone who moved from the US to one of these places with better healthcare where the "left" is useless, they would be happier. france's current system is waaaaaaay better than the us', even when you consider it's not real UHC and i have to purchase private insurance (and that macron will probably make private insurance play an even bigger role in the future)
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Jan 4, 2018 23:25
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Anthony Rendon (D-Paramount) personally killed Single Payer in California and I genuinely hope he gets recalled next year.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:26
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BarbarianElephant posted:It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend. No one here is pretending it will be easy; knock that nonsense off, please.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:27
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i was able to go to the hospital in france and have no bills and my private insurance didn't try to stick me with extra fees or charges or deny coverage or anything. such an experience is completely alien to the rest of my family. and that's with securite sociale having been cut by right wingers and inadequately restored by the "left"
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Jan 4, 2018 23:29
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And you know I think I’ll try to undercut it now: I want to be wrong. I want the Democrats to momentarily pretend they aren’t mewling trash and show us they can prevent poor kids from dying and utter ruination upon just short of a million lives. That is by default more satisfying an outcome than once more watching party devotees backpedal from the lines they loudly drew sbout this time, this time being one failure too far from Democratic representatives.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:29
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BarbarianElephant posted:It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend. There's always going to be problems, and Republicans are always going to try to make things worse, but that doesn't mean UHC wouldn't be a massive improvement.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:30
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BarbarianElephant posted:It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend. In 12 months and with only 52 senate seats, Republicans were able to undo or severely sabotage the vast majority of the ACA that is not related to medicaid expansion. The point is precisely that the right wing will try to do away with any sort of government related healthcare. It's just a lot harder to do it when it is a comprehensive system that covers a substantial number of people. There's literally dozens of examples of this, and perhaps none more relevant than what happened last year: compare the reaction to ACA repeal laws that tried to cut medicaid and medicare, and the tax law that did away with the mandate. I've said this before: the reason to propose UHC and other bold policies isn't because they will make you popular and lead to victory. It's that it's a lot more difficult to kill them once you eventually lose. Same thing happened with Obama's education policies, where most of his "moderate" student loan reforms have all been killed, while his increases to pell grants remain in place.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:37
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sirtommygunn posted:There's always going to be problems, and Republicans are always going to try to make things worse, but that doesn't mean UHC wouldn't be a massive improvement. Of course. But I think most people here would be as angry as they were before because it wouldn't be exactly what they are dreaming of.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:37
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BarbarianElephant posted:Of course. But I think most people here would be as angry as they were before because it wouldn't be exactly what they are dreaming of. that you have convinced yourself the left is composed of unsatisfiable madmen explains several things about your politics, but I question its relevance to the topic at hand
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Jan 4, 2018 23:39
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BarbarianElephant posted:Of course. But I think most people here would be as angry as they were before because it wouldn't be exactly what they are dreaming of. Of all the bullshit reasons not to push UHC, this might be the bullshittiest.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:40
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BarbarianElephant posted:Of course. But I think most people here would be as angry as they were before because it wouldn't be exactly what they are dreaming of. Then you're showing just how fundamentally you misunderstand the left's dissatisfaction with Democratic policies. It's not just that we're not getting exactly what we're dreaming of. It's that Democratic leaders aren't even trying to fight for the constituents who they claim to represent.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:41
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I mean I don’t know about you guys but I can’t really think of a better way to gently caress with a blue wave than by selling out on your constituents and allowing their family to get rounded up by ICE because of several dozen sackless morons in DC.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:50
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joepinetree posted:Of all the bullshit reasons not to push UHC, this might be the bullshittiest. I do want it. But I fear that it wouldn't get left-wing support because of some sort of imperfection (nothing is ever perfect), leaving it pretty much high and dry with right-wingers hating it, left-wingers hating it, and guys in the center-left trying to push it while getting shot by both sides.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:50
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BarbarianElephant posted:Of course. But I think most people here would be as angry as they were before because it wouldn't be exactly what they are dreaming of. You are an utter dipshit if you think so. Travel compensation alone would save thousands of lives.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:51
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BarbarianElephant posted:It tests well with voters right now, before the Republican hate machine convinces them it will kill Granddad or bankrupt the country. Things are harder than you pretend. Polls on "single payer" in the abstract don't have much meaning by themselves; what matters is what specific policies people will actually get out and vote for. not what they support in the abstract -- this is why, for example, gun control never goes anywhere, because despite popular support for gun control, only the fringe gun nuts actually vote on gun issues, so they control those issues. Same thing needs to happen for health care, and the only way that happens is if people are voting to protect benefits they already have, but might lose. So the path to single-payer in America is via expansion of Medicaid/Medicare. There's no overnight solution, we have to just keep expanding it every cycle until everyone has buy-in into the program. Right now Medicaid is a program for the poor, and programs for the poor are poor programs. The more it's expanded the closer to single payer we'll get, but it's going to be incremental.
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Jan 4, 2018 23:56
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BarbarianElephant posted:I do want it. But I fear that it wouldn't get left-wing support because of some sort of imperfection (nothing is ever perfect), leaving it pretty much high and dry with right-wingers hating it, left-wingers hating it, and guys in the center-left trying to push it while getting shot by both sides. nowhat you want is for the left to shut up and just support centrist policy blindly and without complaints. you want the left to stop pushing left and just be a nice voting bloc that is loyal and is ignored
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Jan 5, 2018 00:01
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Office Pig posted:I mean I don’t know about you guys but I can’t really think of a better way to gently caress with a blue wave than by selling out on your constituents and allowing their family to get rounded up by ICE because of several dozen sackless morons in DC. we'll see. not going to be supremely shocked by them knuckling under, because, well, *gestures to last twenty pages*, but they miiiight find some balls.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:02
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BarbarianElephant posted:I do want it. But I fear that it wouldn't get left-wing support because of some sort of imperfection (nothing is ever perfect), leaving it pretty much high and dry with right-wingers hating it, left-wingers hating it, and guys in the center-left trying to push it while getting shot by both sides. as opposed to the status quo, which is left wingers pushing it, and the center left and right joining forces to pull out all the stops to kill it. capped off by you griping about how dumb and goddamned crazy the left is for finding that bad.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:04
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Office Pig posted:Shot. Pelosi-sama...such a great political strategist. 
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Jan 5, 2018 00:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:I do want it. But I fear that it wouldn't get left-wing support because of some sort of imperfection (nothing is ever perfect), leaving it pretty much high and dry with right-wingers hating it, left-wingers hating it, and guys in the center-left trying to push it while getting shot by both sides. Ah, yes. Who can forget all these single payer policies that have been floated around in the states only to be killed by leftists because they were imperfect? Who can forget all the columns Bernie advisors started writing about details when centrist democrats proposed medicare for all? Or maybe it was exactly the other way around, who knows these days.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:25
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Opposition to the Colorado single payer proposal from establishment democrats was able to shift the vote from a majority of voters who support it in the abstract to a 4 to 1 defeat. This is so obviously true that no evidence is required to support it. Opposition to the Hillary Clinton for president campaign from anti-establishment democrats was not capable of shifting the vote by even a percentage point. This is so obviously true that no evidence is required to support it. These two positions seem hard for an intellectually honest person to hold simultaneously.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:29
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Maybe the Colorado plan was in fact badly flawed and not a step forward, and it failed because it was bad policy and the voters recognized that? "Single payer" does not translate into "abracadabra": there can be very bad policy proposals that are technically single payer.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:35
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It sure seems to me that the Colorado plan had significant problems that doomed it at the ballot box but people here are suggesting that even entertaining that explanation makes you a centrist running dog. These are also, curiously, the people who think it’s patently absurd that the anti-establishment left’s advocacy during the campaign could have measurably affected electoral outcomes. Seems pretty convenient to me.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:42
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JeffersonClay posted:Opposition to the Colorado single payer proposal from establishment democrats was able to shift the vote from a majority of voters who support it in the abstract to a 4 to 1 defeat. This is so obviously true that no evidence is required to support it.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:42
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joepinetree posted:Ah, yes. Who can forget all these single payer policies that have been floated around in the states only to be killed by leftists because they were imperfect? Who can forget all the columns Bernie advisors started writing about details when centrist democrats proposed medicare for all? It’s more that *whatever* Democrats do, the self-identified “left” hate it. I have no reason to suppose that you guys would like it unless it came with a side-order of guillotines. Everything seems to be great for you until it gets compromised in committee at which point it is garbage half-measures not worth poo poo. UHC would no doubt be the same. It would end up somewhat compromised and “garbage” to the far left even if it is way better than what we have now. Because it’s better to wallow in suffering than move forward I guess.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:51
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Why would anyone support a single-payer healthcare system in Colorado when it abjectly failed in Vermont?
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Jan 5, 2018 00:51
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JeffersonClay posted:Opposition to the Colorado single payer proposal from establishment democrats was able to shift the vote from a majority of voters who support it in the abstract to a 4 to 1 defeat. This is so obviously true that no evidence is required to support it. You are not as weak or ineffectual as you think. Your words and opinions matter.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:52
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TheNewt posted:Why would anyone support a single-payer healthcare system in Colorado when it abjectly failed in Vermont? I think it would need to be national, or else red states would simply bus the sick to California or Colorado or wherever.
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Jan 5, 2018 00:54
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BarbarianElephant posted:It’s more that *whatever* Democrats do, the self-identified “left” hate it. I have no reason to suppose that you guys would like it unless it came with a side-order of guillotines. Everything seems to be great for you until it gets compromised in committee at which point it is garbage half-measures not worth poo poo. UHC would no doubt be the same. It would end up somewhat compromised and “garbage” to the far left even if it is way better than what we have now. Because it’s better to wallow in suffering than move forward I guess. The story of the ACA proves this wrong. The left was mildly irritated that single-payer was off the table from the start, greatly annoyed by the failure to push for a public option, utterly apoplectic over handouts to industries that only served the donors in control of them, and yet grumpily accepting of the final bill as a mess that was at least an improvement over the status quo. The left never stopped complaining about its inadequacies, because it was absolutely inadequate from the very beginning, but nearly everyone accepted it as a step forward. And so it shall be when we pass grossly inadequate UHC.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:00
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BarbarianElephant posted:It’s more that *whatever* Democrats do, the self-identified “left” hate it. I have no reason to suppose that you guys would like it unless it came with a side-order of guillotines. Everything seems to be great for you until it gets compromised in committee at which point it is garbage half-measures not worth poo poo. UHC would no doubt be the same. It would end up somewhat compromised and “garbage” to the far left even if it is way better than what we have now. Because it’s better to wallow in suffering than move forward I guess. Remember when the DSA, Our Revolution, Bernie Sanders all decided to sit out the protests to protect the ACA because it was a half measure, and it was the twitter #resistance that organized sit ins across the entire country to defend it?
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Jan 5, 2018 01:01
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joepinetree posted:Remember when the DSA, Our Revolution, Bernie Sanders all decided to sit out the protests to protect the ACA because it was a half measure, and it was the twitter #resistance that organized sit ins across the entire country to defend it? Too subtle.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Maybe the Colorado plan was in fact badly flawed and not a step forward, and it failed because it was bad policy and the voters recognized that? Here’s an idea that you can square with overall support for some kind of single payer. That’s a perfectly reasonable possibility.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:02
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JeffersonClay posted:Opposition to the Hillary Clinton for president campaign from anti-establishment democrats was not capable of shifting the vote by even a percentage point. Awwww, I was missing your crazed Dolchstoßlegende, JC. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Maybe the Colorado plan was in fact badly flawed and not a step forward, and it failed because it was bad policy and the voters recognized that? It was most likely a combination of factors, one of which was opposition from Democratic establishment figures in the pocket of the insurance industry. That part of the explanation is not mutually exclusive from the bill having fatal flaws of its own. The point is, we have to acknowledge that the Democratic establishment did play a role in sabotaging this legislation, for pretty cynical reasons. quote:"Single payer" does not translate into "abracadabra": there can be very bad policy proposals that are technically single payer. I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise. Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 01:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Maybe the Colorado plan was in fact badly flawed and not a step forward, and it failed because it was bad policy and the voters recognized that? Then Democrazy needs to make the case for it being flawed legislation that the Democrats were right to push back against instead of arguing that the results indicate that people don’t want single payer in the first place.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:15
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readingatwork posted:Then Democrazy needs to make the case for it being flawed legislation that the Democrats were right to push back against instead of arguing that the results indicate that people don’t want single payer in the first place. This. The topic of discussion is not whether or not Amendment 69 was a good piece of legislation through-and-through; it's whether or not its defeat is an indication that support for single payer is not high enough for it to be pursued in earnest by progressives.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:It’s more that *whatever* Democrats do, the self-identified “left” hate it. I have no reason to suppose that you guys would like it unless it came with a side-order of guillotines. Everything seems to be great for you until it gets compromised in committee at which point it is garbage half-measures not worth poo poo. UHC would no doubt be the same. It would end up somewhat compromised and “garbage” to the far left even if it is way better than what we have now. Because it’s better to wallow in suffering than move forward I guess.
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Jan 5, 2018 01:17
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Ze Pollack posted:the boogeyman that a great many centrists have built up is of a Left that is unwilling to compromise its principles, on anything, for any end, in the name of some great unrealistic fantasy like "the type of healthcare every other developed country on the face of the planet has." This Catch-22 seems to be the hip new talking point among disingenuous liberals. "The left must not be listened to because they're all a bunch of fanatics obsessed with perfection who will never compromise" but the instant the left submits a compromise proposal "oh no look at that you've compromised with us and made your ideas worse for no reason, go back to the drawing board until you have something perfect then we can talk about how you are never willing to compromise"
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Jan 5, 2018 01:20
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Do the people arguing that Single Payer doesn't have support have an explanation for why Medicare is basically untouchable due to its immense popularity? "Medicare for All" seems like an incredibly easy sell that the Dems just don't have the spine to push for. Fans fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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