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Pretty loving weird when you think about how they might have made their decision for practical and technical reasons.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:23
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I know they did, but I think the solution they came up with is much less practical than one they could have made. Also: Shadowlyger posted:This is the best part. gently caress your "front line", this is space. CONSIDER: If you have Wormholes and hyperlanes, and the hyperlane is blocked up with all kinds of ships and forts and so on, and the wormhole jumps over it, it's easy to say that it defeats the purpose of having all the forts: BUT If the Wormhole player's fleet is jumped past the Hyperlane player's line of defense, the hyperlane player can counter by blowing up the wormhole generator, making the wormhole player rely solely on the hyperlane network. .....so he's now trapped inside the forts. Isn't that significantly more interesting than just having the hyperlane chokes/terrain on its own? and not exactly more complicated, either. Veryslightlymad fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 06:33
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Space games in general have a bit of a problem with people who don't really engage with the gameplay and instead just whack off to their awesome space empire or something. (See also: the rabid desire for a ship designer they can spend hours fiddling with, regardless of how much it meaningfully contributes to the gameplay). Which is totally fine, people can play they want to play, but you've got to be careful not to sabotage the actual gameplay to try and appease the space wonks. You kind of get something similar in historical games, where nationalist wonks will encourage you to make their favoured nation steamroll everyone else without any challenge (because they prefer whacking off to their glorious victory over the actual gameplay). But it's a bit different there since the nationalist wonks often have their own different preferred nations and will argue with themselves about it, while the space wonks present a more unified front.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:36
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Shadowlyger posted:This is the best part. gently caress your "front line", this is space. So much for all that space terrain they're adding in Cherryh.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:41
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Yeah the salty wormholer who's not shadowlyger has a good point, the problem is really warp, wormholes could conceivably play nice with an otherwise all hyperlane game. And it sounds like it would be fun - Lane empires would have to deal with the possibililty of wormholers popping up in certain systems within their range and avoiding their big defenses, and destroying the generator, while worms would have to decide between going on a rampage and possibly losing their way out, then having to fight out with the possibility of reinforcements catching you from behind, or defending the generator. I'm fine with the current plan because lane games own but the proposed one sounds cool too and would keep the two opposing sides relatively happy (nobody gives a poo poo about warp, the Worst Travel)
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Jan 5, 2018 06:48
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Veryslightlymad posted:Isn't that significantly more interesting than just having the hyperlane chokes/terrain on its own? and not exactly more complicated, either. No.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:48
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gowb posted:Yeah the salty wormholer who's not shadowlyger has a good point, the problem is really warp, wormholes could conceivably play nice with an otherwise all hyperlane game. And it sounds like it would be fun - Lane empires would have to deal with the possibililty of wormholers popping up in certain systems within their range and avoiding their big defenses, and destroying the generator, while worms would have to decide between going on a rampage and possibly losing their way out, then having to fight out with the possibility of reinforcements catching you from behind, or defending the generator. Getting rid of warp and leaving in wormholes just leaves you with the exact same situation. Everyone will simply move to wormholes for bypassing terrain and defensive structures, which defeats the entire point of the changes. The whole point is for defense to be an actual option. As it stands, there is only whackamole offense.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:52
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Just send a constructor with your fleet and bam, unlimited wormholes. Hyperlanes only is better.
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Jan 5, 2018 06:54
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Captain Oblivious posted:Getting rid of warp and leaving in wormholes just leaves you with the exact same situation. Everyone will simply move to wormholes for bypassing terrain and defensive structures, which defeats the entire point of the changes. How about you just build up your defenses in your best systems, rather than some arbitrary border
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Jan 5, 2018 06:56
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Shadowlyger posted:How about you just build up your defenses in your best systems, rather than some arbitrary border We've seen how that works in the current game. It's a nice idea, rooted in a narrative-first way of looking at the game not borne out by actual gameplay.
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Jan 5, 2018 07:00
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It's about striking a balance. If you make the only mode of travel Hyperlanes (and the change to Wormholes is just more obtuse Hyperlanes. Gates are the new Wormholes, from the sound of it), you're not "Making defense an option", you're making defense literally the only option. Whereas if you have a gate/wormhole/generator/widget/doodad, that, crucially, can be destroyed there's a strong incentive to build more static defenses on your borders. And this might well be what the devs are ultimately going for, so I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Jan 5, 2018 07:03
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Veryslightlymad posted:It's about striking a balance. If you make the only mode of travel Hyperlanes (and the change to Wormholes is just more obtuse Hyperlanes. Gates are the new Wormholes, from the sound of it), you're not "Making defense an option", you're making defense literally the only option. Whereas if you have a gate/wormhole/generator/widget/doodad, that, crucially, can be destroyed there's a strong incentive to build more static defenses on your borders. I feel like you didn't read the whole dev diary because you're describing what they've said is happening as if it's a vague maybe. There is a reason why nuJump Drive is now a cooldown based ability to act mostly like old Jump Drive: It's a limited use ability to bypass the lane network at the cost of leaving your dick in the wind, because you can't jump back for some time. The rest of the time it's just a nice Hyperlane Drive. nuJump Drive, Gates, and naturally occuring wormholes give finite, and structured, means by which to occasionally bypass the lane network or access alternative routes. Gates and wormholes are predictable, can be accounted for, and are worth fighting wars to control for the sheer strategic value they afford.
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Jan 5, 2018 07:17
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Given gates and jump drives are in it should be easy to mod in a hiver-style wormhole race anyway. Start with JD and gates, increase JD warmup by a factor of 100. Now it takes years to jump into a system but you can build a gate there, job done.
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Jan 5, 2018 09:38
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The FTL rework is the single biggest improvement to making wars fun in Cherryh because it means you can understand how enemy fleets move, where they might come from and where battle is likely to happen.
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Jan 5, 2018 09:45
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Wiz posted:The FTL rework is the single biggest improvement to making wars fun in Cherryh because it means you can understand how enemy fleets move, where they might come from and where battle is likely to happen. Obviously, this 'fun' pales in comparison to providing inspiration for my self-published scifi thriller, "Wars With Warp & Wormholes."
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Jan 5, 2018 09:52
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Aethernet posted:Obviously, this 'fun' pales in comparison to providing inspiration for my self-published scifi thriller, "Wars With Warp & Wormholes." A thriller? If you want my money it better be a rigorous documentary as to how space warfare would actually work.
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Jan 5, 2018 09:53
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Milky Moor posted:A thriller? If you want my money it better be a rigorous documentary as to how space warfare would actually work. Well you see - *misunderstands physics for hundreds of pages*
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Jan 5, 2018 09:56
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Wiz posted:The FTL rework is the single biggest improvement to making wars fun in Cherryh because it means you can understand how enemy fleets move, where they might come from and where battle is likely to happen. This is the best change, along with the ability to properly fortify your space. Warfare with the old mixed FTLs was always a very unfun part of the game for me, just a game of cat-and-mouse. Just want to say, good work team.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:03
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Milky Moor posted:A thriller? If you want my money it better be a rigorous documentary as to how space warfare would actually work.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:05
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I'd really love it if the civics you can't change later (purifier, robots, two species) were in their own slot and everyone got one pick that kind of just acts as a theme choice for your species.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:07
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Demiurge4 posted:I'd really love it if the civics you can't change later (purifier, robots, two species) were in their own slot and everyone got one pick that kind of just acts as a theme choice for your species. There aren't really enough of them for them to be standard, are there?
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Jan 5, 2018 10:13
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Not yet, but they could add more and I agree that would be really cool.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:22
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Starting with a size 25 planet and a few extra dudes, or a road not travelled start with a bunch of extra random techs, or start with a basic ascension.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:42
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Shadowlyger posted:This is the best part. gently caress your "front line", this is space. Every time you say this out I'm going to point out that you're complaining about this concept in a game with readily accessible FTL and Tachyon Cannons. FTL changes are good for a variety of reasons, the Jump changes were needed specifically because people beelined it and then complained that FTL was too samey, and gateways are cool as hell and a wayyy more interesting implementation of the wormhole concept than wormholes were. Stellaris will be a better game when 2.0 drops.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:48
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Psycho Landlord posted:Every time you say this out I'm going to point out that you're complaining about this concept in a game with readily accessible FTL and Tachyon Cannons. I think it was the right call but it sucks for you shadowlyger, and I mean that sympathetically. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 11:03
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That's fair, but I'd probably be more sympathetic myself if Stellaris bore any resemblance to SotS beyond "Has a ship designer" and "Is a 4x." I continue to think Stellaris needs research accidents though 
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Jan 5, 2018 11:10
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Psycho Landlord posted:That's fair, but I'd probably be more sympathetic myself if Stellaris bore any resemblance to SotS beyond "Has a ship designer" and "Is a 4x."
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Jan 5, 2018 11:20
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Splicer posted:I brought up SotS to draw a comparison to how a game doesn't feel truly spacey to me if "up" isn't arbitrary. I've made my peace that freedom of orientation is a rarity in games for much the same reasons that freedom of movement is, but if I'd finally found another game that scratched that itch and it was later removed I'd be pretty salty. And my point in referencing Stellaris not being SotS is that it's a mapgame in a way that a lot of space 4Xs aren't - not on the level of EU or whatever other Paradox title, no, but the influence is there and how Stellaris handles its various systems in war and exploration is much closer to that style of 4x than a more combat oriented title like SotS or even things like MoO. Being annoyed at a lack of freeform movement on the strategic map in SotS would be totally justifiable - that game gives you time to react and goes out of its way to facilitate your fleet meeting their fleet because ship combat is a focus. Stellaris is much more a game of keeping your color from being pushed around their color on the galaxy map, just with some nice visual feedback in the form of space battles, and right now that's kind of directionless because there's no way to realistically defend backwoods systems with three out of four FTL types in play nor is there a good way to force engagements (which most other 4Xs just have happen, no need to actually set up crazy intercepts) so the border defense aspect is basically moot. Being upset that Stellaris is moving primarily to lanes (but with other options as tech develops, which seems to always be overlooked) is basically being upset that one of the primary concepts of the kind of game Stellaris is, you know, actually exists now. Sure, it's a little blah when options you liked are being removed, but when that removal is making way for the game actually functioning the way it was meant to it seems pointless to actually care beyond being upset because you can be. Plus he's primarily complaining about Jump which was the most boring FTL and the only change occurring with it in 2.0 is using it to teleport will have a cooldown. You'll still be able to pull off crazy border hops with Jumpdrives, you just wont be able to use them to circumvent the mechanic of actually deploying your fleets throughout an entire war. Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 12:15
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I would love a Stellaris map in actual 3D, like SOTS, although given the reaction when SOTS came out I suspect very few would join me in that.
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Jan 5, 2018 12:25
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Aethernet posted:I would love a Stellaris map in actual 3D, like SOTS, although given the reaction when SOTS came out I suspect very few would join me in that. Yeah, no, I am with Khan on this.
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Jan 5, 2018 12:44
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Demiurge4 posted:I'd really love it if the civics you can't change later (purifier, robots, two species) were in their own slot and everyone got one pick that kind of just acts as a theme choice for your species. Yeah, they are kind of an awkward fit for the civics system as it stands.
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Jan 5, 2018 12:56
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Wiz posted:The FTL rework is the single biggest improvement to making wars fun in Cherryh because it means you can understand how enemy fleets move, where they might come from and where battle is likely to happen. I understand it now, though. And war is an important mechanic to work on, but hyperlanes are extremely nonfluid, and since the actual patch isn't dropped yet, I think nervousness about the product is justified. Without seeing the final implementation, I'm worried that my ability to explore and expand, my favorite parts of the game, will be seriously cramped by the adjustment to my least favorite of the 4 x-es.. Building and moving along straight lines doesn't feel natural and open. I'm not exactly deleting the game over it, and as I've said, you guys have earned quite a lot of good faith over the years, but I'm worried the change to the system I care least about is going to significantly hurt two that I care most about.
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Jan 5, 2018 13:06
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Psycho Landlord posted:Every time you say this out I'm going to point out that you're complaining about this concept in a game with readily accessible FTL and Tachyon Cannons. As a primarily warp-player, I've resigned myself to just modding hyperlanes out after 2.0 drops, so honestly, I can agree that the changes are good, since they have motivated me to go back into working on my mods. 
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Jan 5, 2018 13:16
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So has anything been done to make it that hyperlanes don't have the chance to screw you over at the start of the game?
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Jan 5, 2018 14:13
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Hunt11 posted:So has anything been done to make it that hyperlanes don't have the chance to screw you over at the start of the game? There is a significant radius around player empire spawn points where space monsters can't spawn, and an even larger one where leviathans can't (so you don't end up boxed in by the Horror, for example). We're also going to look into whether we can stop empires from spawning in long single-arm connections, as there are rare edge cases where you can still get boxed in on those.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:14
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Wiz posted:We're also going to look into whether we can stop empires from spawning in long single-arm connections, as there are rare edge cases where you can still get boxed in on those. That is good to hear as that is basically what happened in my first game using hyperlanes. One path was blocked off by exterminators, another path by a fallen empire, and the final route available to me was difficult because it would have eventually brought me into conflict with the one friendly empire near me.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:18
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Hunt11 posted:That is good to hear as that is basically what happened in my first game using hyperlanes. One path was blocked off by exterminators, another path by a fallen empire, and the final route available to me was difficult because it would have eventually brought me into conflict with the one friendly empire near me. Mind you, when I say 'boxed in', I don't mean 'I own 25 systems but there's other empires all around me', I mean, 'I can only travel to 10 stars because the only exit from them has the space dragon sitting on it'. We're never going to guarantee access to the whole galaxy. That's part of the intended randomness, and something you can mitigate with number of empire and wormhole settings.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:22
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Wiz posted:Mind you, when I say 'boxed in', I don't mean 'I own 25 systems but there's other empires all around me', I mean, 'I can only travel to 10 stars because the only exit from them has the space dragon sitting on it'. This was literally the start of the game. So the nearby empire I ran into was literally 3-4 systems away from my start and due to the fallen empire being the military isolationists if I tried to even get near them they would tell me to go gently caress off.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:26
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Wiz posted:We're also going to look into whether we can stop empires from spawning in long single-arm connections, as there are rare edge cases where you can still get boxed in on those.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:29
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Wiz posted:Mind you, when I say 'boxed in', I don't mean 'I own 25 systems but there's other empires all around me', I mean, 'I can only travel to 10 stars because the only exit from them has the space dragon sitting on it'. Also a way to force conflict, right? I mean, being boxed in by a Fallen Empire really sucks because that's just a big chunk of the galaxy off-limits till the late-game, but having your expansion blocked by purifiers or exterminators doesn't really seem like a problem since you're going to have to kill them at the first opportunity anyway.
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Jan 5, 2018 14:32
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