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moths posted:4e was a Benghazi or HER EMAILS for a lot of nerds. They didn't understand it, but they were told it was awful and it somehow proved some undefined tummyfeel was right all along. To be fair, many of them weren't just told, they did play it and then reacted badly. For lots of people, the rule-laden, exception-laden, encyclopedic money-pit that is classic AD&D is their favourite game. I don't get it, but suppose it has to do with them playing it when they were 13 and imprinting on it like ducklings. Which is unfortunate - how you can look at the mess that was D&D v3 and not think it needed major refactoring, I don't know. But it's made innovating the product without alienating the existing audience difficult.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:10
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slap me and kiss me posted:My black box basic D&D set game with a gridded map and cardboard cutouts of the heroes and monsters.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:16
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Third point five D&D sprang fully formed from the forehead of Gygax like Athena being birthed by Zeus. Didn't you know that?
remusclaw fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jan 5, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 16:27
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I think we do sometimes lose the thread that it's totally okay not to like 4E as a game, and that what was infuriating and mockable was that the reasons provided by a lot of detractors were nonsense. So many of their complaints were about things that have always been true of D&D and often were especially true of their preferred edition. In the rare cases they had a different kind of complaint, it invariably hinged on a rose-tinted, mythologized vision of the D&D of yore.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:34
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Comrade Gorbash posted:I think we do sometimes lose the thread that it's totally okay not to like 4E as a game, and that what was infuriating and mockable was that the reasons provided by a lot of detractors were nonsense. So many of their complaints were about things that have always been true of D&D and often were especially true of their preferred edition. In the rare cases they had a different kind of complaint, it invariably hinged on a rose-tinted, mythologized vision of the D&D of yore. It's a wonderful game but I wonder if half the people in this forum defend it out of spite from most of the posts I see.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:35
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it was my first RPG and i still have a lot of good memories of crowing around a coffee table, sitting on the floor running the game from a laptop with masterplan and a grid that was too big for the surface i look forward to being a 4e grog in 20 years
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Jan 5, 2018 16:43
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To be fair, there is a lot other systems could improve on. 1) Don’t be crap. After a group has spent a few hours learning FFG Star Wars only to find that Auto Fire breaks the system over its knee, groups are going to be saying “all systems are bad, so no point changing from D&D even if it’s bad.” 2) Sample Adventures. They reassure new GMs, they resolve social issues (the person running isn’t the “bad guy” if the PCs died to what was in the book all along), and they create a shared inter-group experience which is critical in the age of game blogs and streaming. No excuses. Sample Adventures. 3) Get the elephants out of the room. If it’s a modern game, deal with the gun. If it’s a freeform or story game, deal with challenge and duration. If it’s got player defined abilities, deal with specificity. Yes, D&D has elephants too, but you have to beat it, not tie it.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:44
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Plutonis posted:It's a wonderful game but I wonder if half the people in this forum defend it out of spite from most of the posts I see. I defend it because I like it? And most of my bad experiences with the system were down to my initial group's lack of understanding about the system in it's early days? I also like bits and bobs of 3.5.
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Jan 5, 2018 16:49
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Serf posted:
Why wait?
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Jan 5, 2018 16:51
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People get hung up on 4e because it's really good, and everything that's come close since is either similarly flawed in some key areas, very niche, or both. And then it stings that its direct successor deliberately swerved away from its lessons learned. I mean, hyphz calls it right that even 4e flubbed the "Sample Adventures" part of the game pretty badly, but the well-defined procedures-and-rules, the functional balance-right-out-of-the-bat, and the straightforwardness of the game would have made it perfect for organized play and for today's streaming culture*. While Irontooth was a bitch to fight, at the same time wouldn't it have been aces if we had a dozen different videos and stories and podcasts about how they dealt with Irontooth? Or if there was a Lair Assault tournament or marathon event? ____ * and to a degree, 4e really was pushing its generation's version of Critical Role pretty hard with Acquisitions Inc.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:00
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Bongo Bill posted:Why wait? i suppose i could be a 4e grog in 10 years and a blades in the dark grog in 20
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Jan 5, 2018 17:01
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gradenko_2000 posted:People get hung up on 4e because it's really good, and everything that's come close since is either similarly flawed in some key areas, very niche, or both. And then it stings that its direct successor deliberately swerved away from its lessons learned. That culture wasn't fully formed when 4e hit though, and what internet following was there was hugely wrapped up in 3.5 CharOp as an identity. It came too early, in a way--if 4e and 5e's places mechanically had been switched, it'd have worked and Paizo would still be a nothing brand.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:30
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Plutonis posted:It's a wonderful game but I wonder if half the people in this forum defend it out of spite from most of the posts I see. It's not like people here don't readily acknowledge 4e's flaws, but a lot of the edition war rhetoric that sprung up around it is really dumb.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:34
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I love 4e to death and I do not believe for one second it would be perfect for today's streaming culture*. It's way too heavy.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:38
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Nihilarian posted:I love 4e to death and I do not believe for one second it would be perfect for today's streaming culture*. It's way too heavy. Harmonquest uses fuckin Pathfinder. Life finds a way.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:42
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Also it's probably an isolated occurrence but I know in at least one case a lot of the 4e detractors that RPGnet accumulated were doing so out of spite themselves, coming over to poo poo up the d20 forum from the RPGsite so they could get probated like a really stupid version of counting coup.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:44
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Kai Tave posted:Also it's probably an isolated occurrence but I know in at least one case a lot of the 4e detractors that RPGnet accumulated were doing so out of spite themselves, coming over to poo poo up the d20 forum from the RPGsite so they could get probated like a really stupid version of counting coup. Kai, it's a long-established fact that the bannings were actually the result of our bias in favor of 4e. Or was it against 4e? I forget.
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Jan 5, 2018 17:47
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gradenko_2000 posted:Harmonquest uses fuckin Pathfinder. Life finds a way. Like, there are still 4e streams, too. It's just not as popular
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Jan 5, 2018 17:49
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We have always been at war with
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Jan 5, 2018 17:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:Harmonquest uses fuckin Pathfinder. Life finds a way. Dan Harmon is a retard?????
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Jan 5, 2018 18:18
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Has anyone ever tried making a game specifically with "this is good for streaming" in mind?
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Jan 5, 2018 18:41
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Tendales posted:Has anyone ever tried making a game specifically with "this is good for streaming" in mind? Why would you? I can't imagine tabletop gaming as a performative art is terribly compelling, and focusing on that is kind of counter to the goal of the players actually having fun at the table.
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Jan 5, 2018 18:43
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Tendales posted:Has anyone ever tried making a game specifically with "this is good for streaming" in mind? It was called "Whose Line Is It Anyway"
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Jan 5, 2018 18:45
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outlier posted:To be fair, many of them weren't just told, they did play it and then reacted badly. For lots of people, the rule-laden, exception-laden, encyclopedic money-pit that is classic AD&D is their favourite game. Most of the people who jumped on the "4E = dumb MMO video game WoW for babbies" bandwagon were people who'd never played any edition of D&D other than 3.x, though. AD&D grogs had already refused to go to 3.x, and weren't involved in the 3.x > 4E transition. WotC staff aside, obviously. 
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Jan 5, 2018 18:47
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Tendales posted:Has anyone ever tried making a game specifically with "this is good for streaming" in mind? Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy
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Jan 5, 2018 18:49
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Liquid Communism posted:Why would you? I can't imagine tabletop gaming as a performative art is terribly compelling, and focusing on that is kind of counter to the goal of the players actually having fun at the table. Yea. I don't like the fact that streams are selling games, because they're not the experience you're going to have with your beginner mates without any microphones around. But apparently they are.
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Jan 5, 2018 18:56
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It seems like a natural evolution of streaming culture to me, tbh. Streaming is already about feeling like you're hanging out with a bud and shooting the poo poo over video games. Expanding that to goofy improv with your friends seems like a pretty clear extension, especially when its something that you, too, can do with a bit of charisma, imagination, and expensive rulebooks.
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Jan 5, 2018 19:56
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remusclaw posted:Third point five D&D sprang fully formed from the forehead of Gygax like Athena being birthed by Zeus. Didn't you know that?
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Jan 5, 2018 19:57
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What about that power rangers game? Isn't it literally only a game for streaming?
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Jan 5, 2018 20:54
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, again, not saying "freeform with a character sheet" is bad in any way. Starting a new tumblr account is actually a bit of a pain since you need to have an individual e-mail for each one. I've seen some pretty great ones, like a dwarf fortress character, and the one for Ernst Blofeld (from the James Bond films) is pretty great. Lemon-Lime posted:Most of the people who jumped on the "4E = dumb MMO video game WoW for babbies" bandwagon were people who'd never played any edition of D&D other than 3.x, though. AD&D grogs had already refused to go to 3.x, and weren't involved in the 3.x > 4E transition. gradenko_2000 posted:Harmonquest uses fuckin Pathfinder. Life finds a way. They do? Do they ever say what system they used? I've only seen season 1. Whatever their using it's a weird home-brew since only the GM rolls, which I thought was weird, but I'm guessing it's because it's partially a live thing and they want to keep things moving quickly.
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Jan 5, 2018 20:58
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Mummy had a big rock that kept vampires out of Egypt, didn't it?
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Jan 5, 2018 21:10
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counterspin posted:Mummy had a big rock that kept vampires out of Egypt, didn't it? Maybe in the oWoD? I mostly remember that there were some werewolves from Egypt who were kept out of the place, because of reasons. Mummy: the Resurrection is its own weird thing, primarily because the mechanics were set up so that it wasn't actually possible to play outside the Middle East, but the game was deceptive about telling you this.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:12
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Mummy: The Curse essentially pretends vampires, and indeed, all non-mummy supernaturals, don't exist.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:14
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I have better stuff to do than watch some dweeb stream himself playing RPGs without playing it myself and it pains me that people aren't smart enough to be on my level.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:46
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Mors Rattus posted:Mummy: The Curse essentially pretends vampires, and indeed, all non-mummy supernaturals, don't exist. To be fair, that's pretty much every WoD game.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:08
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Nah, most of them acknowledge that the other groups exist, allow at least some room for them, even if they don't assume they work the way the other games do. Mummy straight up stops working properly as a setting if you assume there's other supernaturals around, sometimes.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:11
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Mors Rattus posted:Mummy straight up stops working properly as a setting if you assume there's other supernaturals around, sometimes. That's okay, it also falls apart if you assume there's more than one mummy in the group too.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:12
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Rand Brittain posted:Maybe in the oWoD? I mostly remember that there were some werewolves from Egypt who were kept out of the place, because of reasons. Set laid down a curse and kept the Striders out, thanks to an ancient beef. quote:Mummy: the Resurrection is its own weird thing, primarily because the mechanics were set up so that it wasn't actually possible to play outside the Middle East, but the game was deceptive about telling you this. I remember being told that the OTHER Mummy: The Ressurection book that came out explained a whole lot and made Mummy a better game, but I didn't really care by that point.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:45
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Did Mummy ever explore how people in victorian england used to eat bits of mummies as medicine? That's a hell of a plot hook, I'd steal it for a campaign or a few Hunter sessions.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:49
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rumble in the bunghole posted:Did Mummy ever explore how people in victorian england used to eat bits of mummies as medicine? That's a hell of a plot hook, I'd steal it for a campaign or a few Hunter sessions. ...or grind them up to use as paint?
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Jan 6, 2018 02:14
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