Sub-Saharan Africa: They're Conflict Minerals, Marie

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Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

lollontee posted:

I'm asking what the appreciable difference between "coloured" and "black" communities is? If it's a "fairly diverse group", then what is it exactly that defines whether or not someone belongs to that group? I don't get what the identity being declared here is about is what I'm saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds

quote:

Coloureds (Afrikaans: Kleurlinge) are a multiracial ethnic group native to Southern Africa who have ancestry from various populations inhabiting the region, including Khoisan, Bantu speakers, Afrikaners, and sometimes also Austronesians and South Asians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_(people)#Southern_Africa

quote:

In South Africa, the period of colonization resulted in many unions and marriages between European men and Bantu and Khoisan women from various tribes, resulting in mixed-race children. As the European settlers acquired control of territory, they generally pushed the mixed-race and Bantu and Khoisan populations into second-class status. During the first half of the 20th century, the Afrikaaner-dominated government classified the population according to four main racial groups: Black, White, Asian (mostly Indian), and Coloured. The Coloured group included people of mixed Bantu, Khoisan, and European descent (with some Malay ancestry, especially in the Western Cape). The Coloured definition occupied an intermediary political position between the Black and White definitions in South Africa. It imposed a system of legal racial segregation, a complex of laws known as apartheid.

The apartheid bureaucracy devised complex (and often arbitrary) criteria in the Population Registration Act of 1945 to determine who belonged in which group. Minor officials administered tests to enforce the classifications. When it was unclear from a person's physical appearance whether the individual should be considered Coloured or Black, the "pencil test" was used. A pencil was inserted into a person's hair to determine if the hair was kinky enough to hold the pencil, rather than having it pass through, as it would with smoother hair. If so, the person was classified as Black. Such classifications sometimes divided families.

Sandra Laing is a South African woman who was classified as Coloured by authorities during the apartheid era, due to her skin colour and hair texture, although her parents could prove at least three generations of European ancestors. At age 10, she was expelled from her all-white school. The officials' decisions based on her anomalous appearance disrupted her family and adult life. She was the subject of the 2008 biographical dramatic film Skin, which won numerous awards.

During the apartheid era, those classed as "Coloured" were oppressed and discriminated against. But, they had limited rights and overall had slightly better socioeconomic conditions than those classed as "Black". The government required that Blacks and Coloureds live in areas separate from Whites, creating large townships located away from the cities as areas for Blacks.

In the post-apartheid era, the Constitution of South Africa has declared the country to be a "Non-racial democracy". In an effort to redress past injustices, the ANC government has introduced laws in support of affirmative action policies for Blacks; under these they define "Black" people to include "Africans", "Coloureds" and "Asians". Some affirmative action policies favor "Africans" over "Coloureds" in terms of qualifying for certain benefits. Some South Africans categorized as "African Black" say that "Coloureds" did not suffer as much as they did during apartheid. "Coloured" South Africans are known to discuss their dilemma by saying, "we were not white enough under apartheid, and we are not black enough under the ANC (African National Congress)".

In 2008, the High Court in South Africa ruled that Chinese South Africans who were residents during the apartheid era (and their descendants) are to be reclassified as "Black people," solely for the purposes of accessing affirmative action benefits, because they were also "disadvantaged" by racial discrimination. Chinese people who arrived in the country after the end of apartheid do not qualify for such benefits.

Other than by appearance, "Coloureds" can usually be distinguished from "Blacks" by language. Most speak Afrikaans or English as a first language, as opposed to Bantu languages such as Zulu or Xhosa. They also tend to have more European-sounding names than Bantu names.

# ? Jan 6, 2018 14:24

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# ? May 27, 2024 07:20

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Good god, that is some impressive divide and rule identity politics. I'm starting to understand why the ANC can still claim to be the party of the oppressed without getting laughed at.

Non-racially democratice my balls.

# ? Jan 6, 2018 16:08

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

The ANC has done a fairly solid job over the last two decades of oppressing the coloureds themselves. They've pretty much at best ignored, or more frequently marginalized, them at every turn.

# ? Jan 6, 2018 16:15

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Cat Mattress posted:

When it was unclear from a person's physical appearance whether the individual should be considered Coloured or Black, the "pencil test" was used. A pencil was inserted into a person's hair to determine if the hair was kinky enough to hold the pencil, rather than having it pass through, as it would with smoother hair. If so, the person was classified as Black. Such classifications sometimes divided families.

LMAO, I would be considered colored then, yet no one else in my family would.

# ? Jan 6, 2018 21:59

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

punk rebel ecks posted:

LMAO, I would be considered colored then, yet no one else in my family would.

It's almost like race isn't biological!

# ? Jan 6, 2018 22:16

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

This is one of those things that Americans will always have trouble with because if you call someone "coloured" in the US you'll probably get punched.

I've definitely seen people who consider it at least somewhat offensive as a racial descriptor, and prefer "people of colour". (Of course, that gets kinda confusing since that term's American meaning is "people who aren't white".) At the very least, like "black", it's important to use it as an adjective ("coloured people") rather than a noun ("coloureds").

Fun fact, though: Apartheid was built on Afrikaner nationalism, ie of white, Afrikaans (Dutch)-speaking people. And the formalisation of Afrikaans as a language distinct from Dutch was part of the early 20th Century project of building the Afrikaner national identity...

But today there are more coloured people who speak Afrikaans as a first language than white people. It's basically not even a white language if you go by population. (Although white Afrikaners still have a pretty solid cultural stranglehold over it in terms of arts, music, literature, etc.)

E: Page 26 of Census 2011, if you want the figures.
http://www.statssa.gov.za/census/census_2011/census_products/Census_2011_Census_in_brief.pdf

Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 6, 2018

# ? Jan 6, 2018 22:41

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Badger of Basra posted:

It's almost like race isn't biological!

# ? Jan 7, 2018 00:10

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

You know y'all could have easily just googled "coloured south africa" and saved a South African poster writing you an essay instead of just assuming that SA used the exact same racial terms as the US.

# ? Jan 8, 2018 01:09

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

cis autodrag posted:

You know y'all could have easily just googled "coloured south africa" and saved a South African poster writing you an essay instead of just assuming that SA used the exact same racial terms as the US.

By the logic why have a thread at all if one could just look up everything via Google? There is a lot of nuances that people directly part of a nation's culture and history can provide that articles rarely deliver on.

# ? Jan 8, 2018 01:29

The MUMPSorceress: Jan 6, 2012; ^SHTPSTS; Gary’s Answer

punk rebel ecks posted:

By the logic why have a thread at all if one could just look up everything via Google? There is a lot of nuances that people directly part of a nation's culture and history can provide that articles rarely deliver on.

The thread is to talk about the nuanced stuff. It seems weird to barge into the conversation without learning the basic vocabulary first.

# ? Jan 8, 2018 01:41

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

cis autodrag posted:

The thread is to talk about the nuanced stuff. It seems weird to barge into the conversation without learning the basic vocabulary first.

Way to miss the point of my post.

# ? Jan 8, 2018 07:08

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

cis autodrag posted:

You know y'all could have easily just googled "coloured south africa" and saved a South African poster writing you an essay instead of just assuming that SA used the exact same racial terms as the US.

This is a discussion forum for people to talk about stuff and hearing from other human beings you're actually interacting with who could add additional details or personal experiences is more interesting than going off google or wikipedia.

# ? Jan 8, 2018 11:43

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

How accurate is this?

# ? Jan 10, 2018 10:12

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

punk rebel ecks posted:

How accurate is this?

The only thing that looks inaccurate is the assertion that there's no minimum wage. The minimum wage is way too low, and there are loopholes around it, but it has been in place since the 90s.

cis autodrag posted:

The thread is to talk about the nuanced stuff. It seems weird to barge into the conversation without learning the basic vocabulary first.

I've been resisting jumping into this, since I see some of both sides, but this has been resonating with me: it does seem weird that this thread has a kind of A/T feel to it sometimes, especially from certain posters. I don't personally mind answering questions now and then, and it does seem educational to some folks, but I agree that it feels like a low level of nuance for DnD.

# ? Jan 10, 2018 10:25

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

But I suppose to digest that article into talking points:

- South Africa has the most progressive and efficient tax system in the world.
- South Africa also has the worst Gini coefficient in the world.
- South Africa has a legacy of a massively inequitable education system, and twenty years of the government spending quite a large part of its budget on education is still barely making a dent in the problem. (Some of this is infrastructural debt -- historically white schools were well-constructed to first world standards, while there are still schools in poor enough areas that are basically mud huts. Some of it is the compounded problem of kids growing up in abject poverty.)

OK I guess some other inaccuracies are giving any credence whatsoever to a Trump adviser, and all the blah blah about how the Scandinavian countries are taxing the middle class while South Africa isn't. The progressive taxation system is taxing the middle class, it's just that the middle class is tiny relative to the poorer underclasses.

# ? Jan 10, 2018 10:40

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Lead out in cuffs posted:

But I suppose to digest that article into talking points:

- South Africa has the most progressive and efficient tax system in the world.
- South Africa also has the worst Gini coefficient in the world.
- South Africa has a legacy of a massively inequitable education system, and twenty years of the government spending quite a large part of its budget on education is still barely making a dent in the problem. (Some of this is infrastructural debt -- historically white schools were well-constructed to first world standards, while there are still schools in poor enough areas that are basically mud huts. Some of it is the compounded problem of kids growing up in abject poverty.)

OK I guess some other inaccuracies are giving any credence whatsoever to a Trump adviser, and all the blah blah about how the Scandinavian countries are taxing the middle class while South Africa isn't. The progressive taxation system is taxing the middle class, it's just that the middle class is tiny relative to the poorer underclasses.

Thanks.

If you want me to stop asking questions I will.

I don't want to bother you or be annoying. :ohdear:

# ? Jan 10, 2018 10:47

Zombiepop: Mar 30, 2010

Poppin in to say that when people ask questions and they get answered, regardless of if you can wiki it or not. It makes lurkers like myself aware of a subject I probably wouldn't have thought to wiki. Which is good, also this is a forum, nobody has to answer to the question and this thread aint exactly lively.
So thanks to everyone engaging in discussion so that the uneducated(me) can get some information now and then. Learning stuff is always good.

# ? Jan 10, 2018 10:56

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

punk rebel ecks posted:

Thanks.

If you want me to stop asking questions I will.

I don't want to bother you or be annoying.

Well, it's sometimes annoying, but the more knowledgeable posters can always just ignore you if we don't feel like answering, so don't feel obligated to stop. To be honest I enjoy talking about South African politics, and there's little enough discussion here in DnD (compared with, say, discussion of US politics).

# ? Jan 10, 2018 18:23

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Considering weve managed 18 pages in 2.5 years for a whole continent I'll take any discussion tbh

# ? Jan 10, 2018 20:27

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

In which Ethiopia effectively assassinates Egypt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8X8tbjqjg

# ? Jan 19, 2018 20:38

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Grouchio posted:

In which Ethiopia effectively assassinates Egypt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8X8tbjqjg

Here come the water wars.

# ? Jan 20, 2018 10:15

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

Grouchio posted:

In which Ethiopia effectively assassinates Egypt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8X8tbjqjg

Seems like the Helsinki agreement would side with Ethiopia and Egypt have dammed the Nile already. I'm going to suggest if they hadn't threatened to bomb it they might have been able to reach some sort of compromise where they get Ethiopia to fill it slower.

# ? Jan 20, 2018 12:00

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

Oh hey Cape Town's running out of water in three months. Hoo boy.

quote:

Cape Town, South Africa is in crisis mode right out of a Mad Max movie. Given current water consumption, the city has approximately 90 days until it runs out of water.

The city recently pushed forward what they call Day Zero, where the city will be forced to shut off water supplies to all but essential consumers, such as hospitals. This would mark the first major city in the world to run out of water, a result of a prolonged 3-year drought.

The severe water shortage is due to a three year, once in a millennium, drought. While meteorologists believed the drought was initially due to the strong 2015 El Ni�o, the drought has continued despite no longer being in El Ni�o conditions. Most climate models predict that as global temperatures continue to warm, South Africa will continue to receive less and less precipitation. To combat this, the city is investing in desalination plants, however, they won't be operational before Cape Town runs out of water in just 90 days.

# ? Jan 21, 2018 09:41

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Good thing they can just dispense the water directly to the people from the Table mountain as needed.

# ? Jan 21, 2018 09:44

Sad Panda: Sep 22, 2004; I'm a Sad Panda.

Grouchio posted:

Oh hey Cape Town's running out of water in three months. Hoo boy.

Indeed, I was there a few months ago and pretty much the first thing anyone mentioned in the Western Cape was about the lack of rain + water. Plenty of signs around and there was a song released so you knew how long a 90 shower was meant to be. I wonder if there's a remix on the cards.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jan 21, 2018 10:17

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

The drinkable tap water in (most of) South Africa always impressed me. Its a solid achievement for a country with their income level. Shame the Western Cape has had bad weather luck recently.

# ? Jan 21, 2018 13:34

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Sad Panda posted:

Indeed, I was there a few months ago and pretty much the first thing anyone mentioned in the Western Cape was about the lack of rain + water. Plenty of signs around and there was a song released so you knew how long a 90 shower was meant to be. I wonder if there's a remix on the cards.

We keep complaining about the lovely weather in NW Europe, but this really puts things into perspective.

Rain [...] is good

# ? Jan 21, 2018 14:00

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD: Jul 7, 2012

please don't gently caress me up. please go easy on me

# ? Feb 1, 2018 16:45

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

please don't gently caress me up. please go easy on me

"You are sentenced to make love with this Porcupine" :kheldragar:

# ? Feb 1, 2018 18:49

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

Zuma is a lot older than I thought he was.

# ? Feb 1, 2018 19:40

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Grouchio posted:

"You are sentenced to make love with this Porcupine"

"Then you can take a shower when you are done."

# ? Feb 1, 2018 20:11

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Question for the Saffers here: what language(s) are currently used in the SA army?

Google is showing me that up until the changeover in the 90s it was 50% Afrikaans and 50% English, officially at least. I've read anecdotally that Afrikaans was far more dominant. Has it stayed the same? Or has English come to dominate / have any native languages gained official usage?

# ? Feb 2, 2018 01:07

Chimp_On_Stilts: Aug 31, 2004; Holy Hell.

I like Fokofpolisiekar's music. I was introduced to them by some Afrikaners in a bar in Knysna while visiting SA last July and I've been listening to them since.

My understanding, as an American with only a basic understanding of SA history, is that their music is representative of a generation of Afrikaners who have grown up after Apartheid, rejected the racism of the past, and have struggled to find an identity in a country which Afrikaners no longer control and in which their ancestors treated their fellow humans terribly.

From the translations of songs I've read, it seems that the music is often an explicit rejection of the conservatism of their parents -- most notably Hemel Op Die Platteland, a rejection of "heaven in the countryside", which I think means the classical Afrikaner life in which one is expected to be a Christian, get married, live a conservative lifestyle, and raise kids to do it again.

So, the picture that I have in my head is that the band is left wing and anti-racism. How accurate is this? What have I misunderstood or missed?

I am aware that my cultural understanding is deeply limited. I am concerned, for example, that if FPK leans into what in the USA we'd consider white nationalism I'd be oblivious to it (if this were the case, I couldn't possibly support the band). This post specifically is motivated by this article which I recently found, which has concerned me that the band might be turning in a nationalist direction I cannot follow.

(At the same time, articles like this one seem to support my current understanding?)

# ? Feb 2, 2018 01:56

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Blut posted:

Question for the Saffers here: what language(s) are currently used in the SA army?

Google is showing me that up until the changeover in the 90s it was 50% Afrikaans and 50% English, officially at least. I've read anecdotally that Afrikaans was far more dominant. Has it stayed the same? Or has English come to dominate / have any native languages gained official usage?

Googling around, it sounds like they switched to English exclusively in the early 2000s, although not without some controversy in terms of under-representing the other official languages:

https://pmg.org.za/committee-meeting/6704/
https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/ngubane-questions-sandf-language-policy-36034

(OK the Volkstaat people were super butthurt about removing Afrikaans, but just lol volkstaat).

Oh here's a research article that interviewed soldiers about it: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...an-Infantry.pdf

I believe the attitude was a politer version of this:

(That last one also goes into use of native African languages. I haven't read it much, but basically there are nine official natively South African languages, and very few of those are mutually intelligible. English was chosen as a "thread" language.)

# ? Feb 2, 2018 02:46

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Googling around, it sounds like they switched to English exclusively in the early 2000s, although not without some controversy in terms of under-representing the other official languages:

https://pmg.org.za/committee-meeting/6704/
https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/ngubane-questions-sandf-language-policy-36034

(OK the Volkstaat people were super butthurt about removing Afrikaans, but just lol volkstaat).

Oh here's a research article that interviewed soldiers about it: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...an-Infantry.pdf

I believe the attitude was a politer version of this:

(That last one also goes into use of native African languages. I haven't read it much, but basically there are nine official natively South African languages, and very few of those are mutually intelligible. English was chosen as a "thread" language.)

Thats excellent stuff, thanks. From reading all of the above it seems that the best possible outcome came about :

quote:

Findings suggest a strong shift to the use of English as lingua franca in the camp (despite very low numbers of L1 English speakers), and a concomittant pervasively positive attitude towards this practice.

I was half expecting something far more ridiculous, like the rotating use of the 11 different official languages on a weekly basis. English becoming the 'thread' language is rather more practical.

# ? Feb 2, 2018 13:08

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Blut posted:

Thats excellent stuff, thanks. From reading all of the above it seems that the best possible outcome came about :

I was half expecting something far more ridiculous, like the rotating use of the 11 different official languages on a weekly basis. English becoming the 'thread' language is rather more practical.

Yeah really. In fact, reading that in more depth, I realise that the base they studied was in the Eastern Cape, where isiXhosa is by far the majority language, so it was really only a matter of English vs Afrikaans vs isiXhosa. But if it were a base outside, say, Johannesburg, or a base with soldiers from across the country, then you would have all 11 languages in the mix, and it becomes even more pertinent to have a lingua franca.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg#Demographics

Interestingly, there's been a (very small) rise in the prevalence of English as a home language across the country over the past 20 years.

http://www.salanguages.com/stats.htm

(The other increases in that graph -- isiNdebele and "other", are likely due to immigration from other African countries. Ndebele people are divided between South Africa and Zimbabwe.)

# ? Feb 2, 2018 23:14

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

Its funny/surprising, the rest of the Anglo-Saxon world very much views South Africa as an English speaking nation. But its not even just those of African descent who aren't English speakers. When I was down there I was shocked when I met university educated Afrikaaners who barely spoke English. They'd never met anyone (or spoke to at least) who spoke another language until the age of 18, and had spoken exclusively Afrikaans until then.

I know thats obviously a tiny minority, but its still something that most other commonwealth residents wouldn't even think of. The extent of the Boer/Soutpiel divide isn't well known at all to the outside world.

# ? Feb 3, 2018 14:08

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

I never saw South Africa as an English-speaking nation, though it's true that I'm not Anglo myself. Their history is one of telling the British Empire to go gently caress itself even after being conquered. Of the two main European influences in South Africa, the Dutch/Afrikaner one is certainly the most distinctive one and the one I would most readily associate with the country.

Now that Afrikaners have lost their disproportionate political power, it makes sense for English to be in the ascendant.

e: the etymology of soutpiel is amazing

Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Feb 3, 2018

# ? Feb 3, 2018 16:08

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

I certainly didn't viewed South Africa as an English speaking country, but actually visiting it makes it clear that it's definitely the lingua franca there. Literally everyone I encountered, including fast food employees, street vendors or even beggars all spoke decent English, so I kind of do now. I associated Hong Kong way more with the British for example yet outside of Central or TST I ran into the language barrier pretty regularly.

Are there any recommended books on the history of South Africa? Despite visiting many museums while there and trying to read about it here and there I still have pretty big gaps in understanding how things got the way they are.

# ? Feb 3, 2018 21:49

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# ? May 27, 2024 07:20

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Phlegmish posted:

I never saw South Africa as an English-speaking nation, though it's true that I'm not Anglo myself. Their history is one of telling the British Empire to go gently caress itself even after being conquered. Of the two main European influences in South Africa, the Dutch/Afrikaner one is certainly the most distinctive one and the one I would most readily associate with the country.

I think it's important to be careful about this narrative. The final "telling the British Empire to go gently caress itself" was leaving the Commonwealth in 1961, and that was a direct response to the Commonwealth becoming less racist and colonialist.

While it is true that Afrikaners got shafted by British Empire, it's important to remember that, contrary to their nationalist mythos, they were the colonisers, not the colonised.

Phlegmish posted:

e: the etymology of soutpiel is amazing

Lol. True that.

mobby_6kl posted:

Are there any recommended books on the history of South Africa? Despite visiting many museums while there and trying to read about it here and there I still have pretty big gaps in understanding how things got the way they are.

In general, this is a good source of information:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/archive

I haven't read this one, but it seems to be getting good reviews:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/sites/default/files/file%20uploads%20/leonard_monteath_thompson_a_history_of_south_afrbook4me.org_.pdf

# ? Feb 3, 2018 22:32

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