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Josef bugman posted:I mean when we say passionless it is always meant as a pejorative, whereas the Ancient Greeks would regard that as a good thing. right? Unsurprisingly I am more in favour of the modern interpretation because it is impossible to be "above it all" and claiming to not have a passion for, for instance, justice strikes me as being something worrisome. Yes. However, Stoic apatheia and Pyrrhonist ataraxia would have been understood as ideals worth striving for rather than a state practically reachable. The vocabulary might be misleading here - the ancients wouldn't have said of someone that he or she was passionate for justice, or at least not in a respectable way, insofar as the passions were considered irrational by their very nature (this is keeping to philosophical thought, there are other authors who blur the distinction). Being passionate for justice, in the ancient sense, might be like someone who cheers for the cops no matter what heinous acts an individual might commit, because "law and order." Justice, in a respectable sense, would be something on the side of reason, which could only really be thought in a dispassionate sense. One could be zealous for justice, say, but the word passionate probably would not have occurred.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:36
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Epicurius posted:There was a pretty funny play out there about 20 years ago called, "I Love You. You're Perfect. Now Change." Demons also have no body, but I wouldn't say that they have no passions. I find that definition of "passion" fundamentally flawed.
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Jan 5, 2018 21:53
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Guys, I'm passionate for being dispassionate, you have no idea how thrilling it is to just enter into blankness for hours on end. I can't stop sharing with my friends and coworkers just how wonderful being completely neutral is, it's infectious!
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Jan 5, 2018 21:55
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pidan fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Jan 5, 2018 21:57
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Senju Kannon posted:the view i took was a liberationist one (and no one was surprised), that god is actively working towards liberation and that the triumph over oppression is guaranteed by the resurrection. however, god's working in human history is necessarily limited because of free will, and so it's part of our mission as human beings to help bring about the eschaton through working for the liberation of all oppressed peoples and the freeing of all slaves You might find the book Pirate Freedom by Gene Wolfe to be interesting in this light. The theme of liberation is really central to its philosophy.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:00
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Josef bugman posted:I mean when we say passionless it is always meant as a pejorative, whereas the Ancient Greeks would regard that as a good thing. right? Unsurprisingly I am more in favour of the modern interpretation because it is impossible to be "above it all" and claiming to not have a passion for, for instance, justice strikes me as being something worrisome. If you told an ancient Greek that you had a passion for justice, he or she would think that you meant that, when you saw justice done, it triggered an emotional disturbance that encouraged you to act irrationally. They'd understand you if you said you desired to see justice done, or if you said you considered justice a moral good.
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Jan 5, 2018 22:48
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Epicurius posted:If you told an ancient Greek that you had a passion for justice, he or she would think that you meant that, when you saw justice done, it triggered an emotional disturbance that encouraged you to act irrationally. They'd understand you if you said you desired to see justice done, or if you said you considered justice a moral good. This is a great example.
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Jan 5, 2018 23:17
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gee i wonder why the western intellectual tradition has painted women and people of color as being emotional and unable to be logical
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Jan 5, 2018 23:18
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Senju Kannon posted:gee i wonder why the western intellectual tradition has painted women and people of color as being emotional and unable to be logical let's not get hysterical unrelated, but we had fog last night and it frosted all the trees in glittering white, it was gorgeous. then it melted midday before I got to take any pictures 
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Jan 6, 2018 00:29
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I honestly feel like the last page or so has been a morass of Wittgensteinian word-games where we just need to find a common understanding for key ideas and terms: passion desire change To quote Caputo regarding the philosophical struggle to articulate change: "For even when it makes a lot of noise about motion (Hegel) all that philosophy ever comes up with is a noiseless shuffle of concepts, like a mime moving in place and never taking a single step forward." Radical Herm. p. 3 So we have a hard time understanding how change happens (with some people grasping onto the block theory of time as an alluring way out of the challenge) in our own world. If it is difficult enough to understand how change happens here, how could we even hope to understand how change could occur in a divine realm.
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Jan 6, 2018 01:26
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Fuckin' words, man.
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Jan 6, 2018 02:26
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Epicurius posted:If you told an ancient Greek that you had a passion for justice, he or she would think that you meant that, when you saw justice done, it triggered an emotional disturbance that encouraged you to act irrationally. They'd understand you if you said you desired to see justice done, or if you said you considered justice a moral good. this was well freaking done
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Jan 6, 2018 03:14
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Fuckin' words, man. How do they work? Also, thank you, I'm learning quite a lot. And thanks for the podcast, Senju Kannon.
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Jan 6, 2018 03:22
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CountFosco posted:Guys, I'm passionate for being dispassionate, you have no idea how thrilling it is to just enter into blankness for hours on end. I can't stop sharing with my friends and coworkers just how wonderful being completely neutral is, it's infectious!
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Jan 6, 2018 03:57
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Senju Kannon posted:gee i wonder why the western intellectual tradition has painted women and people of color as being emotional and unable to be logical but also responsible for 'taming' men
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Jan 6, 2018 04:05
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HEY GUNS posted:aren't you orthodox as well? this is literally the end goal, that and theosis I'm just an inquirer, friend, haven't been formally chrismated or baptized. I attend service every week (weather providing) but I'm not de jure Orthodox. Everything (almost everything? not sure about toll-houses) that I hear from Orthodox sources and thinkers I find myself agreeing with over other manifestations of Christianity, so I consider myself de facto Orthodox. I still hold on to some open theism tendencies and a belief that theosis does not annhilate a sense of self, but introduces one to a truer self. I don't define passion in the same way that the ancient Greeks and Romans would, for me passion is a feeling that something has great importance which can live alongside rationality. Perhaps I'm not the hesychast I could be. It seems to me that some allowances for eccentric, bordering-on-heresy-but-not-quite-heresy thoughts should be permitted within the confines of the one true church, because the difficulty of understanding and speaking about God is so immense that it is easy for anyone to slip up. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jan 6, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 14:17
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I just say it's not mine to know the mind of God. I assume He is a being of infinite love, mercy, and compassion, and work from there.
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Jan 6, 2018 14:39
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I just go with what the church says and it's a huge weight off my back.
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Jan 6, 2018 16:38
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CountFosco posted:I'm just an inquirer, friend, haven't been formally chrismated or baptized. I attend service every week (weather providing) but I'm not de jure Orthodox. Everything (almost everything? not sure about toll-houses) that I hear from Orthodox sources and thinkers I find myself agreeing with over other manifestations of Christianity, so I consider myself de facto Orthodox. I still hold on to some open theism tendencies and a belief that theosis does not annhilate a sense of self, but introduces one to a truer self. I don't define passion in the same way that the ancient Greeks and Romans would, for me passion is a feeling that something has great importance which can live alongside rationality. If you are so down with Orthodoxy, I think it'd be rad if you get chrismated. That way you can start receiving Communion, which is the best thing you can do for yourself.
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Jan 6, 2018 18:03
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HEY GUNS posted:I mean, toll houses are some bullshit, imo The demons in them make some good cookies, though.
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Jan 6, 2018 18:16
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pidan fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 20:20
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pidan posted:I think the church's official theology is sort of a safe variant, and if you want to believe something else in some aspect, you can do so but it may possibly have dire consequences. Church teaching is like workplace rules: maybe some things can be done differently, and maybe for your specific situation the established rules are not optimal, but in general they're what's been discovered to be safe and effective over time. The dire consequences are, traditionally, you will be killed. That consequence being gone in most of the west, things get a lot less dire.
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Jan 6, 2018 20:32
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pidan fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 20:44
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pidan posted:That did happen in some cases, but not as much as people think, and it's not what I meant. The possible dire consequences are more that you might follow a wrong path, lead other people to believe wrong things, wander away from the true God and go to hell. There's a risk of that if you believe your church's official theology too, though, because how can you say with certainty that your church is right? Religion is the attempt to understand the unknowable, to describe the ineffiable. It's impossible to know if there's a god or gods or an afterlife. You either believe or you don't, and then your life follows from that.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:07
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believing what the church teaches without any critical thought or investigative curiosity is the cowards way imho wow senju can't believe the trans woman former liberation theologian would take such a hard line stance on that
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Jan 6, 2018 21:22
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Senju Kannon posted:believing what the church teaches without any critical thought or investigative curiosity is the cowards way imho Then I am a coward. A happy, safe, resigned coward.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:30
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Senju Kannon posted:believing what the church teaches without any critical thought or investigative curiosity is the cowards way imho Cowardice is underrated. I've been saved from committing many a sin due to my own cowardice. You can use that line of reasoning to go down any line of thought. I believe that it is wrong to kill a person without taking the investigative curiosity to go out and kill a person. Am I a coward for that? Perhaps yes, but I'm also brave enough to live with that cowardice.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:01
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You'll cowards don't even smoke claque
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Jan 6, 2018 22:27
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CountFosco posted:Cowardice is underrated. I've been saved from committing many a sin due to my own cowardice. yeah that's clearly what i'm saying you're a coward for not killing someone to find out whether killing is wrong, got it in one countfosco this is one hundred percent what i was saying and not a strawman you made. congratulations my master's degree is now legally yours
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Jan 6, 2018 22:56
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shame on an IGA posted:You'll cowards don't even smoke claque Name/Post/Thread combo of the year right there 
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Jan 6, 2018 23:19
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Serendipity, the priest tonight made an off-hand reference to "being a slave to the passions" and I almost laughed out loud. Also, he talked a bit about Persian religion, mysticism, and science from before and around the first century CE, does anyone know of any sources that talk about this in depth?
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Jan 7, 2018 00:22
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Senju Kannon posted:yeah that's clearly what i'm saying you're a coward for not killing someone to find out whether killing is wrong, got it in one countfosco this is one hundred percent what i was saying and not a strawman you made. congratulations my master's degree is now legally yours Great. Now what can I do with a masters degree? The rhetoric, the ideology of transgression is that we must transgress to free ourselves from societal shackles. This was the rhetoric of the beat generation, a dim echo of the Crowleyan dogma, "do what thou wilt." I never said that's what you were saying, what I said is that the same line of reasoning can be used to horrible ends. For example, much of the ethical violations of psychologists were justified by the implication that if you weren't willing to do things that society deemed aberrant you were being a coward, unwilling to advance science because of it.
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Jan 7, 2018 03:02
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sin boldly
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Jan 7, 2018 03:05
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shame on an IGA posted:You'll cowards don't even smoke claque you're a good person
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Jan 7, 2018 03:16
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CountFosco posted:Great. Now what can I do with a masters degree? retail is what you can do, apparently and you're completely misunderstanding me still; questioning WHY the church teaches what it teaches and whether that's consistent with other church teachings isn't the same as sinning so that grace may be abundant why does society say x is bad? that's not exactly a bad question to ask my man
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Jan 7, 2018 05:20
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StashAugustine posted:but also responsible for 'taming' men I think this is a later development. The Ancient Greeks, or at least the ones in Athens, were so misogynistic that this would be regarded as a nonsense. men could be perfect whereas women were half formed men and barely human. Also I do have to wonder about rationality, mainly because it seems to have been more an excuse to talk about how "rational" the people writing things down are compared to the mob and how they wanted food and jobs and etc. Ceciltron posted:I just go with what the church says and it's a huge weight off my back. Yeah this is worrying. I mean I understand the appeal but there needs to be pushback and dissent of things, if only to ask why things are the way they are. Institutions need to justify themselves as much as people do and if they can't, or you find the justification to be lacking, something needs to be done about it. pidan posted:That did happen in some cases, but not as much as people think, and it's not what I meant. The possible dire consequences are more that you might follow a wrong path, lead other people to believe wrong things, wander away from the true God and go to hell. Jan Hus wants some words with you. Ceciltron posted:Then I am a coward. A happy, safe, resigned coward. For how much longer? If you have to look around you and see things that disagree with your churches interpretation or the way the world seems or is "supposed" to work then inevitably your going to have to ask some questions on your own about how things fit together.
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Jan 7, 2018 08:41
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You misunderstand me. Trying to make sense of the world on my own, the way bourgeois society and my middle class parents insisted I do, made me miserable, depressed and unable to see any hope in things. Life was an ugly struggle flavored with dim dreams that historical inevitability might free us. God's love, and the beauty and authenticity of the Church? These are what put a smile back on my face. Josef bugman posted:For how much longer? If you have to look around you and see things that disagree with your churches interpretation or the way the world seems or is "supposed" to work then inevitably your going to have to ask some questions on your own about how things fit together. A lot longer than what came before. Eternally, I dare say. I am tired of asking questions - it is wrong to demand that every single person on this earth construct their own exhaustive personal religion and ideology and then seek approval of others. While reason alone may very well indeed lead us to God's love, it's God's love that saves us- not reason.
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Jan 7, 2018 13:49
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the definition of theology is “faith seeking understanding.” the entire catholic intellectual tradition is about asking questions about things the church teaches. even if for some reason you wanted to ask questions outside of questions of ethics and morality (and in a new gilded age i don’t quite know why catholic social teaching WOULDN’T be on the mind) without questions and interrogating church teachings there wouldn’t be an aquinas, and where would that leave the dominicans? can you imagine a dominican order without aquinas? they’d have to focus on saint dominic and i don’t know how many dominicans can do that
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Jan 7, 2018 14:14
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I daresay the ego is what creates the most problems in this regard. I've been religious for most of my life, but it didn't stop me from becoming a terminally depressed alcoholic and drug addict who hurt others, because I saw the world as a place where I had to act in that manner. Once I changed my spiritual practice to one where I prayed to unchain my ego and desires and follow the will of the divine, I became a changed person.
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Jan 7, 2018 14:15
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Problem with that is, what's the will of the divine? "God's plan for your life" is a big deal in Evangelical churches and, well, I'm nearing thirty and still have no clue what on Earth God wants for me beyond loneliness, depression, and jobs that never work out.
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Jan 7, 2018 14:41
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