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thrawn527 posted:Again, the movie doesn't say this. It doesn't even say the taxes are on food. They could be on fancy dresses. The Trade Federation tells the Governor the people of Naboo are starving, but that's after the invasion starts, which, as you say, is after the trade dispute is over, so it likely has more to do with the Trade Federation invading and starving the people so the government will surrender. OP for one minute stop and think about what you think about the movie. Don't think about what the characters aren't telling you, but what they are. You've gotten to a point where you'd have us earnestly believe that you think it's equally as likely the Trade Federation are blockading Naboo over dresses.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:41
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What does OP mean?
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Jan 6, 2018 21:44
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sponges posted:What does OP mean? Original Poster
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Jan 6, 2018 21:45
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homullus posted:I can't speak for you, but what got me into this in the first place is your claim that the movie doesn't explain the issue. It does, clearly, before you see anything other than yellow text and stars. If you want to move the goal posts and claim that your concern was SMG's claim that it was Naboo, not the Republic, because it's clear as day to you that the Republic raised taxes on imports to Naboo, then go ahead, but you have some other wild claims about confusion to walk back. I'm not moving goal posts, this was my original post on the matter. thrawn527 posted:...what? Where the hell is any of this in the movie? What I said that you seem to take issue with is this: quote:This is one of the reasons some people say the plot doesn't make much sense. The reason behind the blockade isn't really well explained. In the end, it doesn't matter, because it was all a smoke screen for Palpatine's machinations. But when you start the movie, and you're left wondering, "Wait, why is there a blockade? Taxes? Whose taxes?", it doesn't really start you off in the best frame of mind for enjoying a movie. And I stand by that. The movie starts, people are talking about trade disputes and tax routes and blockades, and it's not entirely clear what is going on. It stops mattering about five minutes later, but that's the first thing that happens in the movie, which certainly pales in comparison to how A New Hope starts. You say it "clearly" explains the dispute in the opening text. I'm saying all it says is that there's a dispute, and a blockade, and some Jedi are there to settle things. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 6, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 21:45
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Waffles Inc. posted:OP for one minute stop and think about what you think about the movie. Don't think about what the characters aren't telling you, but what they are. You've gotten to a point where you'd have us earnestly believe that you think it's equally as likely the Trade Federation are blockading Naboo over dresses. The dress thing was a joke, c'mon now.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:46
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The Republic commands the T-Feds to reach a Settlement with Naboo. Naboo were the ones who imposed the taxes.Billzasilver posted:What about the droid army and the poison gas That has nothing to do with the blockade or the taxes. Those are the first steps of the alien invasion plot, which is what the film is about. The complex alien invasion plot works like this: -Invade with aliens. -Pressure the queen into handing over legal ownership of the planet.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:46
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They’re related if the tax blockade ships are carrying the whole invading army
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Jan 6, 2018 21:51
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thrawn527 posted:The dress thing was a joke, c'mon now. Right right and the joke is that it's just as silly to you that it be dresses as it is for it to be food. But it's not, is it? It's more likely the tax dispute was food, isn't it? In all honesty? That's my point is that you're so committed to this idea that TPM doesn't explain the taxation that you think what the movie is telling you is silly
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Jan 6, 2018 21:53
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Waffles Inc. posted:Right right and the joke is that it's just as silly to you that it be dresses as it is for it to be food. It could be other things than food. Could be medicine. Could be whatever they use to sustain their economy, like mining equipment. That part isn't really important, though, I was just using it to once again point out that SMG was making assumptions and using them as fact. He said, "The Federation are protesting higher taxes by refusing to send food anymore". And I mean, maybe. I'd even give you probably. And I'll cede the point on the food thing, because I don't really care. But the claim that the movie is clearly telling you that Naboo substantionally raised taxes on imports isn't there, and that the "The Federation had no plan to actually invade, at the time" just isn't there.
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Jan 6, 2018 21:57
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Waffles Inc. posted:Right right and the joke is that it's just as silly to you that it be dresses as it is for it to be food. Man, a movie can’t just say the word Taxation and then you the viewer have to create your own universe about what happened. Maybe I just had the flu yesterday so I decide the tax was on flu vaccines? Maybe last night was cold so I decide the tax was on clothing? Pfffft that’s really bad movie making in literally the first one minute.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:00
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Billzasilver posted:They’re related if the tax blockade ships are carrying the whole invading army That was a display of force; they had no actual plans to invade. When Sidious says to begin landing troops, Gunray is shocked.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:02
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I'm pretty sure they never once even say the word "tax" in the Ep 1.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:03
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That’s the flimsiest evidence I’ve ever heard. Isn’t he shocked because of the Jedi or something else
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Jan 6, 2018 22:04
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Billzasilver posted:That’s the flimsiest evidence I’ve ever heard. No. Pay attention to the film: Dofine: This scheme of yours has failed, Lord Sidious! The blockade is finished! We dare not go against these Jedi! Sidious: Viceroy, I don't want this stunted slime in my sight again.This turn of events is unfortunate. We must accelerate our plans. Begin landing your troops. Gunray: My lord, is that legal?! The Feds thought it was just going to be a blockade, but Sidious is calling the shots. He orders the invasion.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No. Pay attention to the film: What does "accelerate our plans" mean to you?
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Jan 6, 2018 22:10
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Hah ahaha
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Jan 6, 2018 22:12
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I don't want this stunted slime in my sight again
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Jan 6, 2018 22:13
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thrawn527 posted:What does "accelerate our plans" mean to you? Recall that they intended to make all of this legal by pressuring the queen to sign a treaty. By landing before their occupation was legal, they accelerated their plans.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:15
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:-There are controversial taxes on imports to smaller 'outlying' planets. Is the blockade legal, though? Does the trade federation have the right to blockade all imports/exports to and from Naboo? Do they own Naboo airspace, so to speak? Imagine if Coca Cola initiated a blockade of Trinidad using a hired mercenary fleet of small cruisers, because Trinidad decided to raise tariffs on Coke products dramatically. What I really don't understand is your idea that Naboo needs to import agriculture; it's hard to imagine a more fertile looking world. If they can't be bothered to put together a few victory gardens, are they really in it to win it?
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Jan 6, 2018 22:17
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Yeah it’s so obvious and clear that’s what signing a treaty does
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Jan 6, 2018 22:18
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This is the same reason I said Rogue One sucks. Goons need to write pages and pages of background to warp it into a good movie.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:19
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thrawn527 posted:What does "accelerate our plans" mean to you? In this specific context, it refers to doing things illegally. Gunray was aiming for legal control of the planet, with the blockade. (Gunray loves to remind people how legal his schemes are.) Gunray is shocked that Sidious would invade, because invasions are illegal. He only goes along with it because Sidious promises to make the invasion legal retroactively.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:20
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General Dog posted:The disputes that set off the events of Episode 1 are mundane because there's no war, and seemingly hasn't been one for a long time. The trade route disputes subvert your expectation of star wars movies being about the interesting part of wars.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In this specific context, it refers to doing things illegally. Gunray was aiming for legal control of the planet, with the blockade. Nothing about taxes or blockades or treaties actually means they want control of the planet. It means they want something, maybe something different. Maybe the treaty is for more credit loopholes, you don’t know. The only thing that makes control of the planet likely is the invading army they brought.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:29
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Again, the entire plot is about pressuring Amidala into giving up before time runs out (i.e. before the Republic steps in with its forces). Sidious orders an illegal invasion to dramatically increase the pressure on Amidala. It's really, really straightforward.
SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jan 6, 2018 |
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Jan 6, 2018 22:31
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Giving up what? The secret formula to her makeup? Hyperspace shipping lanes? Gungan leather?
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Jan 6, 2018 22:32
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Billzasilver posted:Giving up what? The secret formula to her makeup? Hyperspace shipping lanes? Gungan leather? The T-Feds are after whatever they can get. They consider even speaking to the queen directly to be an achievement: "Sir, a transmission from the planet." "It's Queen Amidala herself." "At last, we are getting results." With the Republic out of the picture, though, they expect to get away with a lot - from lower taxes up to and including ownership of the planet. Gunray had no plans of invading, though. He figured the blockade would be enough for Amidala to sign the treaty.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:36
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And that all circles back to the initial point: the plot of the movie is both frustrating and boring. There needs to be more dialog to explain things beyond “whatever they can get.” But the dialog already in place is so bland that it might not be worthwhile.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:39
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The Trade Federation wants money and they want the Naboo to give it to them, in a legal manner. They are pressuring Naboo by refusing to trade with them (a boycott) and preventing anybody else from trading with them (a blockade). It's possible to pressure Naboo in this way because the Trade Federation provides things that they need; Bibble tries to get Amidala to come back by mentioning that people are starving. The Senate established a tax (Palpatine says so), and the Trade Federation doesn't want to pay it (because they are greedy). A treaty is a legal agreement, and because the idea is that the Naboo would be signing it under duress, we know that it would be favorable to the Trade Federation, either an exemption from the tax or something that would offset it. The presence of Jedi means this plan won't work, so Darth Sidious tells them to actually use the army that they are trying to intimidate them with, and promises them that they won't go to jail for it. The purpose of the invasion is to capture the queen and compel her by force to give them what they want (money). After the queen escapes, they hold the population hostage as a way to try to achieve the same thing. They chose Naboo because Darth Sidious is from Naboo, so he could secretly play both sides of the field.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:42
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Bongo Bill posted:The Trade Federation wants money and they want the Naboo to give it to them, in a legal manner. They are pressuring Naboo by refusing to trade with them (a boycott) and preventing anybody else from trading with them (a blockade). It's possible to pressure Naboo in this way because the Trade Federation provides things that they need; Bibble tries to get Amidala to come back by mentioning that people are starving. It’s all so boring.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:44
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Those Naboo fighter planes are so fuckin sweet
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Jan 6, 2018 22:48
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Billzasilver posted:There needs to be more dialog to explain things beyond “whatever they can get.” It's explained at the start of the film that the want lower taxes, and the blockade would resolve that problem. It is then repeatedly explained that they have a treaty written up, that would grant them ownership of Naboo once Amidala signs it. Therefore, their goals range from lowered taxes to - best-case scenario - ownership of Naboo. All done legally. It's not complicated.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:48
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sponges posted:It’s all so boring. Hearing all that wasn’t worth it 
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Jan 6, 2018 22:48
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Billzasilver posted:Hearing all that wasn’t worth it My opinion of TPM has been diminished
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Jan 6, 2018 22:49
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sponges posted:It’s all so boring. This is all explained in fewer lines of dialog than there are lines about farming in A New Hope, which also features a scene in which a bunch of villains sit in a conference room and establish the political situation of the galaxy.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:53
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As it goes on, complaints about the TPM plot not making sense seem like an intentional way of baiting someone into writing more and more words to explain something not that complicated solely in order to respond "wow what a bunch of boring words."
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Jan 6, 2018 22:54
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Uhhh no, you explained it in like 300 words. The movie failed to explain it in fewer lines. Which by the way just means it was incredibly boring in an incredibly fast way.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:55
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We understand that you are bored. But the point is that you are also illiterate, and there's a clear causal relationship there.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:56
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Billzasilver posted:Uhhh no, you explained it in like 300 words. I understood it by watching the movie, so it was successfully explained. Very often, when a movie is saying something and a viewer does not understand it, it means that the viewer was distracted by expecting it to be saying something different.
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Jan 6, 2018 22:56
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Martman posted:more and more words to explain something not that complicated I sense a contradiction
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Jan 6, 2018 22:59
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