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Tender Bender posted:I agree that it's a problem with the movie and it should be better fleshed out. I just don't agree that it's as significant a problem as you seem to. So a poor story and poor execution of telling the story in a medium about story telling isn't a significant problem?
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Jan 8, 2018 09:51
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s.i.r.e. posted:So a poor story and poor execution of telling the story in a medium about story telling isn't a significant problem? I don't think the details of imaginary space fascists "the first order"'s rise to power before the force awakens are a significant enough part of the story to derail the space fantasy we actually see in TLJ, no.
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Jan 8, 2018 13:42
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s.i.r.e. posted:So a poor story and poor execution of telling the story in a medium about story telling isn't a significant problem?
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Jan 8, 2018 13:43
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s.i.r.e. posted:So a poor story and poor execution of telling the story in a medium about story telling isn't a significant problem? Along with fundamentally changing core aspects of established characters and undoing the characterization they developed in previous movies, one has to wonder what's left to enjoy?
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Jan 8, 2018 13:43
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McCloud posted:Along with fundamentally changing core aspects of established characters and undoing the characterization they developed in previous movies, one has to wonder what's left to enjoy? What character are you talking about?
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Jan 8, 2018 13:49
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I think changing a core character is fine if it gives them a purpose in the narrative, and I think Hamill did a good job selling the change in TLJ. To me an actual problem with the ST is that they brought back a bunch of characters from the OT for nostalgia and have done nothing with them (eg R2 and C3PO).
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Jan 8, 2018 13:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think changing a core character is fine if it gives them a purpose in the narrative, and I think Hamill did a good job selling the change in TLJ. To me an actual problem with the ST is that they brought back a bunch of characters from the OT for nostalgia and have done nothing with them (eg R2 and C3PO). The problem is that a character doing something different than he's done before is something reasonable that should happen in a story. You have to rephrase it as "the character changed and had his characterization undone" so you can convince the other nerds that they actually didn't enjoy star wars.
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Jan 8, 2018 13:56
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think changing a core character is fine if it gives them a purpose in the narrative, and I think Hamill did a good job selling the change in TLJ. To me an actual problem with the ST is that they brought back a bunch of characters from the OT for nostalgia and have done nothing with them (eg R2 and C3PO). The problem here is that they change a core character in a way that has them repeat the lessons they should have already learned 20 odd years ago in Lukes case, and 2 days ago in Finns. This is not satisfying from a cinematic point of view. Tender Bender posted:The problem is that a character doing something different than he's done before is something reasonable that should happen in a story. You have to rephrase it as "the character changed and had his characterization undone" so you can convince the other nerds that they actually didn't enjoy star wars. Luke considering murdering his nephew is not something reasonable by any stretch, but even given that, him secluding himself in a cave at the end of the universe and letting everything he cared and fought for burn to ashes (including friends and family) is also not reasonable, and in fact one would have to be tremendously dumb to think that it is. You can feel free to enjoy it as much as you want, but lets not pretend its reasonable.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:15
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McCloud posted:The problem here is that they change a core character in a way that has them repeat the lessons they should have already learned 20 odd years ago in Lukes case, and 2 days ago in Finns. This is not satisfying from a cinematic point of view. It's really interesting that movies with sacred cow characters always get naysayers that don't actually seem to know the source material.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:40
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Luke has taken rash actions before. I can believe that if one of those rash actions lead to the rise of a galactic threat and his best friend and sister losing their son it would have a major impact on him. And I can believe he was afraid of turning to the dark side or turning others to it after that point.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:25
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If there's no Jedi, there's no sith, balance. Side thought on why Rose and FN were just as important. Rose and FNs trip is ultimately about proof that the rebellion exists. Remember that it takes Gen. Han Solo to confirm to Rey that the stories she heard were true. Rose and Fn, and by extension her ring, are proof to the kids the war is happening. That the broom kid has a solid foundation to believe in that last stand by Luke, it allows him to believe in the force, like Rey.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:48
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Clearer pictures of the Solo lego sets here: https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/01/more-lego-star-wars-solo-toys-arrive-revealing-closer-look-at-new-cast.html Looks like Mimban and Kessel will be making an appearance. Also seems that Quay Tolsite, one of the aliens, will be a Pyke. An alien species said to be involved with Kessel, they were introduced in The Clone Wars series.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:50
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McCloud posted:Luke considering murdering his nephew is not something reasonable by any stretch, but even given that, him secluding himself in a cave at the end of the universe and letting everything he cared and fought for burn to ashes (including friends and family) is also not reasonable, and in fact one would have to be tremendously dumb to think that it is. You can feel free to enjoy it as much as you want, but lets not pretend its reasonable. Luke doesn't seriously consider it, it's immediately rejected, and he considers the fact that he felt that moment of temptation to be shocking and horrifying and his greatest failure.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:56
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Teek posted:Clearer pictures of the Solo lego sets here: Finally we can give Moloch (TM) to the kids rather than the other way around
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Jan 8, 2018 16:00
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I'm absolutely shocked that the Solo movie is going to feature Kessel. Shocked.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:01
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I'm willing to bet that every dumb thing predicted by RLM in their Han Solo video actually comes to pass.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:04
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Tender Bender posted:Luke doesn't seriously consider it, it's immediately rejected, and he considers the fact that he felt that moment of temptation to be shocking and horrifying and his greatest failure. Possibly. Interpretations are mixed on that.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:24
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Tender Bender posted:Luke doesn't seriously consider it, it's immediately rejected, and he considers the fact that he felt that moment of temptation to be shocking and horrifying and his greatest failure. If you walk into my bedroom with a loaded gun, I'm going to think you did more than 'immediately reject' wanting to kill me.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:44
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bushisms.txt posted:If there's no Jedi, there's no sith, balance. How are there no sith. It’s just a religion?
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Jan 8, 2018 16:47
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Angry Salami posted:If you walk into my bedroom with a loaded gun, I'm going to think you did more than 'immediately reject' wanting to kill me. Okay.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:49
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Wild Horses posted:How are there no sith. It’s just a religion? It's star wars. I dunno. I thought it was always taken for granted Vader brought balance by hunting down Jedi. Luke then (un)balances it with the death of the emperor and Anakin. He could've stopped right there, but he started up the old ways and probably brought attention to Ben through training him to Snoke.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:32
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Wild Horses posted:How are there no sith. It’s just a religion? The extended universe ruins it by having an endless stream of monster of the week sith for every occasion. But in the cannon movie universe sith seem to be a thing that exists solely because jedi keep loving up their genius plan of "what if we teach someone how to have godlike power then make them pinky swear to use it only for good"
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Jan 8, 2018 17:32
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The funny thing is Luke sneaking into his sleeping nephew's room to read his mind is way more hosed up than a momentary temptation to kill baby Hitler, but no one is objecting to it and he doesn't seem to realize it either.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:35
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Kyp D U R R O N
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Jan 8, 2018 17:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The extended universe ruins it by having an endless stream of monster of the week sith for every occasion. But in the cannon movie universe sith seem to be a thing that exists solely because jedi keep loving up their genius plan of "what if we teach someone how to have godlike power then make them pinky swear to use it only for good" How does Sheev fit into this interpretation? The "cannon movie universe" doesn't claim he's created by the Jedi at all.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:57
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exquisite tea posted:I'm willing to bet that every dumb thing predicted by RLM in their Han Solo video actually comes to pass. To be fair, most everyone who heard that there was going to be a solo Solo movie predicted it would in someway involve the Kessel Run or the rescue of Chewbacca from Imperial supported slavers.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:20
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Tender Bender posted:Luke doesn't seriously consider it, it's immediately rejected, and he considers the fact that he felt that moment of temptation to be shocking and horrifying and his greatest failure. Meanwhile, Kylo and Rey are nearly besties for a whole minute before... "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." "I agree! Let's throw out all this Jedi-Sith BS and forge a new path!" "Awesome, plus we'll blow up the remaining transports and all your friends." "What?! No. Why does this plan involve killing anymore, Snoke's gone and--" "I said kill the past!" "I only made friends with them like a week ago! They're the present! The First Order is just imitating Palpatine's enforcers, they're the past." "YOU'RE the past!" *intense smooching ensues*
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Jan 8, 2018 18:29
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sassassin posted:How does Sheev fit into this interpretation? The "cannon movie universe" doesn't claim he's created by the Jedi at all. I think that the implication is that the Sith are all Jedi apostates, or at least with Dooku and Vader being two major ones we extrapolate Tarkin believes that Vader is a Jedi--although from his point of view Vader was the only "good" Jedi, assuming he was never in on Order 66 or Sheev's planning
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Jan 8, 2018 18:30
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Tender Bender posted:The funny thing is Luke sneaking into his sleeping nephew's room to read his mind is way more hosed up than a momentary temptation to kill baby Hitler, but no one is objecting to it and he doesn't seem to realize it either. Dunno, if the entire reason he is around his nephew is to mentor him and watch his mind for signs of turning evil, then going to watch his mind when he suspects he's turning evil doesn't seem all that egregious. Seems like the main point of Ben agreeing to have Luke around for the training.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:31
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We the audience don't know what really happened then and can't. Kind of hard to draw conclusions.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:32
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Electromax posted:Dunno, if the entire reason he is around his nephew is to mentor him and watch his mind for signs of turning evil, then going to watch his mind when he suspects he's turning evil doesn't seem all that egregious. Seems like the main point of Ben agreeing to have Luke around for the training. I mean, nah. Mind control and reading without consent is bad. It is bad and creepy every time it happens on screen
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Jan 8, 2018 18:32
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Jedi seem to read things with out intending to dig. Why was he in the room tho is a good question.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:34
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Waffles Inc. posted:I mean, nah. Mind control and reading without consent is bad. It is bad and creepy every time it happens on screen Yeah, I guess I never considered it 'mind reading' as much as a sort of mood ring thing. Like Ben was giving off evil brainwaves but he couldn't see specific images, like Yoda sensing anger in Luke or whatever. But we know mind control is something Jedi regularly do elsewhere and like the first thing Rey does with her powers, and Snoke does weird mind stuff with Rey/Kylo, so maybe Luke really was watching his dreams like a TV. I don't remember how it's presented in TLJ super-well.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:35
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euphronius posted:Jedi seem to read things with out intending to dig. He was just there to touch his weiner like normal and immediately sensed something was wrong
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Jan 8, 2018 18:36
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Jonathan Fisk posted:Benicio Del Toro's Character in The Last Jedi Is Gay, And Here's Why That Shouldn't Matter lmao
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Jan 8, 2018 20:28
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TildeATH posted:Imagine all you assholes getting this worked up for the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise and canon because thats the actual Star Wars of the present and not this grand cultural thing you all read about on Wookeepedia. hmm.. agreed. in that case i demand only 1 thing: movie featuring a busty Aayla Secura, in true Pirates bodice-bursting form
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Jan 8, 2018 20:46
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bushisms.txt posted:You do realize people make mistakes, and you idolizing someone doesn't mean they won't have flaws? Luke tried to kill his dad, like actively tried for several minutes. He's now progressed to not doing the action part. Are you sure you've watched the OT? There is a rather large difference between being a young man angrily lashing out at your dad that purposefully pushes your buttons to provoke you while being influenced by the grand vizier of evil sithness while your friends are dying and you can't help them, to calmly walking in on your sleeping nephew and preparing to murder him. I would think this would be self evident but I guess I have to spell this out to you. Maybe you need to rewatch the OT?
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Jan 8, 2018 20:48
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TildeATH posted:Ha ha too late. Yeah, this. The problem with Star Wars is that it's always going to be the same thing over and over now, there's always going to be some sort of evil Nazi government run by Force using zombie men in control of planet destroying doomsday weapons and the day is always going to be saved by the "underdog" ragtag group of friends and one is gonna be a Jedi. Tender Bender posted:I don't think the details of imaginary space fascists "the first order"'s rise to power before the force awakens are a significant enough part of the story to derail the space fantasy we actually see in TLJ, no. Something something earnest conversation, something snarky post, something. You're literally saying "these major factors that create a good story don't apply to this film." If this was some arthouse film I could agree, but this isn't one. It's a children's film. There's ways the film could have kept the audience entertained enough where we don't care about these things; but at 2.5 hours long the film is too long, hardly explains anything and instead feed us lame plots/characters and overloads us with a ton of CGI spectacle that lacks any weight to it and you quickly become bored, see the cracks and start questioning the film. A backstory on the FO would have not only filled in the gap but made them a little more interesting and removed from the Empire. The First Order sucks rear end in every way because they're just a continuation of The Empire and it's loving dull. The Empire 2.0 looks just like predecessor in every way just a bit more shiny, they're goal is the same, they sound the same, they're leaders are the same, they're ships and mecha are the same, it's all the same poo poo. This leads back to the problem of Star Wars needing a super powerful entity to represent evil and give our characters something to fight. bushisms.txt posted:There are three scenes centered around flashbacks that execute Luke's "backstory"just fine . Everything you need to know about what's going on in the story, and more importantly, the characters, is in the movie. We're not even talking about Luke's backstory though? McCloud posted:There is a rather large difference between being a young man angrily lashing out at your dad that purposefully pushes your buttons to provoke you while being influenced by the grand vizier of evil sithness while your friends are dying and you can't help them, to calmly walking in on your sleeping nephew and preparing to murder him. I would think this would be self evident but I guess I have to spell this out to you. Maybe you need to rewatch the OT? His father also ordered the death of his only relatives and maimed him as well.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:08
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OWLS! posted:Kyp 
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Jan 8, 2018 21:19
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s.i.r.e. posted:The Empire 2.0 looks just like predecessor in every way just a bit more shiny, they're goal is the same, they sound the same, they're leaders are the same, they're ships and mecha are the same, it's all the same poo poo. not really. the New Empire is staffed by stupid rear end characters nobody cares about or likes. Empire 1.0 had cool dudes like tarkin and darth fukken vader, the new one has a bunch of dumb, weak millennials lol. compare: grand moff tarkin: old, cool, collected, professional, smart, evil, calculating hux: some stupid ineffectual idiot nobody cares about
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Jan 8, 2018 21:21
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