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SHISHKABOB posted:Haha, that seems insanely cheap for what the androids can do. They actively and routinely get murdered by tin can stubbies and have little to no built in ranged capability. The three YoRHa we play as are the only outwardly effective units in the game, and one of them isn't really YoRHa anymore. They're an extreme waste of money.
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Jan 8, 2018 09:41
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YoRHa should have invested more in pods.
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Jan 8, 2018 10:21
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Samuringa posted:Has this little interview ever been posted here? Q5. Why do androids have a concept of leveling up? Because this game is an RPG. lol 
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Jan 8, 2018 10:46
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A2 really isn't a side character and if you came away with that impression I don't know what game you were playing.
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Jan 8, 2018 12:17
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My favourite thing about the RLM game results is no one even tried with 9S, who's a vacuous anime self insert for the player, and all the stuff with 2B comes from stuff revealed like five hours after she dies, meaning all the time you actually spend with her all she is is stern
Cymbal Monkey fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 12:31
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Cymbal Monkey posted:My favourite thing about the RLM game results is no one even tried with 9S, who's a vacuous anime self insert for the player, and all the stuff with 2B comes from stuff revealed like five hours after she dies, meaning all the time you actually spend with her all she is is stern 9S is a naive and overexcited kid with a crush on his perceived older brethen, but also this looming knowledge of his final fate should he stick with 2B. That crush is what leads to his final breakdown and the contradictory nature of it.
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Jan 8, 2018 12:40
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Cymbal Monkey posted:vacuous anime self insert for the player tho he does turn into the most obnoxious stereotype "crazy with rage" towards the end, not sure how much that's in the localization/voice acting RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 13:00
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RoadCrewWorker posted:curious you read it that way, starting to think you might be projecting a bit too hard at this point, buddy It's pretty obvious when his defining feature is romantic interest in the hyper sexualised lolita character who the player is obviously supposed to be into.
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Jan 8, 2018 13:05
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His defining feature is the hateboner he has for machines and the obliviousness that they aren't that different from Androids
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Jan 8, 2018 13:20
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Samuringa posted:His defining feature is the hateboner he has for machines and the obliviousness that they aren't that different from Androids He isn't even oblivious, he knows, he just decides it doesn't matter after his breakdown. He has the reverse arc A2 has.
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Jan 8, 2018 13:21
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Cymbal Monkey posted:My favourite thing about the RLM game results is no one even tried with 9S, who's a vacuous anime self insert for the player, and all the stuff with 2B comes from stuff revealed like five hours after she dies, meaning all the time you actually spend with her all she is is stern this says more about you than it does about Nier Automata tbqh
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Jan 8, 2018 16:15
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Yeah, the first thing we see 9S do chronologically speaking is watch two machines engaging in a fraternal relationship and he just scoffs at them and zooms off. He remains wedded to that denial pretty late into the game and despite all the evidence to the contrary he encounters, he doesn't really break with it so much as he just focuses on his other issues. I think by the time you start doing side quests in the Forest Kingdom he stops denying out right and gets more confused and curious about why the machines are acting the way they are. Especially in in the wise machines side quest
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Jan 8, 2018 16:48
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Cymbal Monkey posted:My favourite thing about the RLM game results is no one even tried with 9S, who's a vacuous anime self insert for the player, and all the stuff with 2B comes from stuff revealed like five hours after she dies, meaning all the time you actually spend with her all she is is stern The Mr. Plinkett videos are creepy badly dated overlong messes that are worse at being criticism than the prequels are at being movies hth
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Jan 8, 2018 17:44
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The Vosgian Beast posted:The Mr. Plinkett videos are creepy badly dated overlong messes that are worse at being criticism than the prequels are at being movies hth That may be so but I think there's value in this heuristic for determining whether or not a character has any depth.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:55
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I don't know, man.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:55
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The only value really is "is this character not literally a cardboard cutout"
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Jan 8, 2018 18:16
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the problem with that method is how easy it is to ignore character traits that get in the way of a certain narrative you want to create. for example, ignoring every single moment of personality displayed by 9S so you can pretend that he's a harem anime protagonist.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:17
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Augus posted:the problem with that method is how easy it is to ignore character traits that get in the way of a certain narrative you want to create. for example, ignoring every single moment of personality displayed by 9S so you can pretend that he's a harem anime protagonist. I think that's why it's best administered by people who like the piece of media, and the fact that people seem to struggle to go deeper than "he loves 2B and that's his downfall" is fairly damning
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Jan 8, 2018 18:29
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I admit that I come at this as someone who found this game enormously disappointing, and perhaps I shouldn't hold it to the standards of say, Weiss and Kainé's incredible and colorful relationship. I will posit that I went in wanting to love it, but after 30 hours and utterly failing to find a shred of humanity in a game ostensibly about machines finding their humanity, I dunno, I guess I just don't really understand what I'm supposed to have gotten out of this experience. Edit: that's not true, I was really invested in Pascal. Cymbal Monkey fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 18:37
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I think the thing the game mainly failed to sell me on was that 2B was romantically interested in 9S, when it looks more like she's his older sister.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:40
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he's an enthusiastic nerd who is curious about everything but takes for granted what he thinks he already knows. he hasn't yet been jaded by being in the thick of war like 2B is, so he tries a lot more to be casual and friendly and build personal relationships. He shelters himself from harsh realities by falling back on facts and data and good old-fashioned denial. consequently, he is not emotionally prepared to deal with actual loss. stop trying to make the square peg fit the round hole, you're getting way too distracted by the fact that 2B is attractive. Augus fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 18:49
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Momomo posted:I think the thing the game mainly failed to sell me on was that 2B was romantically interested in 9S, when it looks more like she's his older sister. I was more annoyed by the fact that 2B's entire personality is delivered in an infodump by someone else long after she stops being in the game. I don't buy the rational that she couldn't display her emotions because Yorha stuff so that was the only way. It makes sense in the rules of the world, but just makes her unbelievably uninteresting for the entire time you actually spend with her and I see little reason it couldn't have been established earlier or the repeating act structure couldn't have been moved around so that you can interact with 2B as a person rather than Heartless Combatbot 3000™. Edit: on that subject, I'd like to address how very fast and loose YorHa plays with the rules on emotion, seeing as it's established in a call from base (that is never mentioned ever again) that the androids date. Seeing as they're machines, that are built, it's not even like there's a strictly for procreation explanation for this. That's an intimate emotional connection and what's her name is sad when she's denied this by the android she's crushing on. There is no other point than it makes them happy and fulfilled. That entire conversation should have been cut from the game because all it does is smash the facade that YorHa units are actually expected to repress their emotions. Maybe they are in the code of conduct but that seems to be basically unenforced in practical terms. Cymbal Monkey fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 18:54
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every single thing that is revealed about 2B is hinted at and observable in subtle details and mannerisms in the rest of the game.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:57
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The banter in Automata is dry and basically non-existent compared to that of the first NieR and it's not especially surprising that the best banter in this game is between A2 and Pod 042 because it's by far the most NieR 1 like stuff in the game. Cymbal Monkey posted:I don't buy the rational that she couldn't display her emotions because Yorha stuff so that was the only way. It's more of a self-imposed limitation upon herself and one she's forcing on 9S so she doesn't have to interact with him any more than strictly necessary. It's entirely up to you to decide how effective the writing is, but that's the intent with that. Cymbal Monkey posted:Edit: on that subject, I'd like to address how very fast and loose YorHa plays with the rules on emotion, seeing as it's established in a call from base (that is never mentioned ever again) that the androids date. Seeing as they're machines, that are built, it's not even like there's a strictly for procreation explanation for this. That's an intimate emotional connection and what's her name is sad when she's denied this by the android she's crushing on. There is no other point than it makes them happy and fulfilled. That entire conversation should have been cut from the game because all it does is smash the facade that YorHa units are actually expected to repress their emotions. Maybe they are in the code of conduct but that seems to be basically unenforced in practical terms. The English voice acting is pretty bad for that side-quest with 6O but in Japanese there's a lot of self doubt and almost helplessness on 2B's side of the conversation. She's absolutely not a Heartless Combatbot 2000 by any stretch. Josuke Higashikata fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 19:01
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It's pretty obvious by like halfway into route A that 2B has some sort of feelings or attachment towards 9S particularly and that "emotions are prohibited" is less of a rule that YorHa androids actually follow than it is a mantra 2B repeats to keep herself detached.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:01
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2B is literally the only person that ever mentions emotions being prohibited. Even when dealing with the commander 9S clearly shows emotion and doesn't get repremanded, so it's supposed to be more like 2B combed through the YoRHa book of guidelines to find some reason not to interact with him. Also, her interactions with 6O show it's really obvious 2B actually does care about other people and will break her demeanor on occasion so she doesn't entirely lose contact with them. This is actually very similar to A2, thinking about it. Zerilan posted:It's pretty obvious by like halfway into route A that 2B has some sort of feelings or attachment towards 9S particularly and that "emotions are prohibited" is less of a rule that YorHa androids actually follow than it is a mantra 2B repeats to keep herself detached. It's obvious she cares about him when he first loses an arm and leg trying to take out the goliath in the very first section of the game.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:05
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It feels like this game deals so much more with the past and present than what Nier looks to do (since Nier 1 propels so many events in motion in the first place), so I didn't mind the focus on reading archival text and piecing together the truth about reality. (It's an allegory for human existence)
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Jan 8, 2018 19:08
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Momomo posted:2B is literally the only person that ever mentions emotions being prohibited. Even when dealing with the commander 9S clearly shows emotion and doesn't get repremanded, so it's supposed to be more like 2B combed through the YoRHa book of guidelines to find some reason not to interact with him. I'm pretty sure one or two of the faceless YoRHa on the bunker also mention emotions are prohibited is a thing, and I think maybe even one of the operators in a call but I'm less sure about that. Even then, it's not something that is even slightly enforced so the point barely changes even if it is brought up by other androids. 2B shares her personality type with A2, so that's the point there really. On a rudimentary level, they're kind of the same person, just shaped differently by life. And again with voice acting, the Japanese dub makes it really clear that 2B is out of character when 9S gets creamed in the intro, she's acting way too concerned and involved than she should be because we know "they're meeting for the first time there". It's only hindsight of the game that we know it's not out of character at all. Don't remember the English VA to compare that bit.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:13
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Josuke Higashikata posted:And again with voice acting, the Japanese dub makes it really clear that 2B is out of character when 9S gets creamed in the intro, she's acting way too concerned and involved than she should be because we know "they're meeting for the first time there". It's only hindsight of the game that we know it's not out of character at all. Don't remember the English VA to compare that bit. The Japanese version sounds pretty interesting, but I'm really only looking at the product I bought, the English release, in a vacuum, I don't feel a better Japanese version that gives 2B an actual personality in the time we get to know her excuses the very poor characterisation she got in the version the English speaking world played.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:20
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You can pretty much RLM Test Adam and Eve, and I thought they were annoyingly underused. Adam takes in a lot of information on subjects he has no context for and so doesn't quite understand them, and his inability to directly interact with the object of his obsession frustrates him, to the point where he risks death just in case it allows him to learn something crucial. Eve doesn't like learning, preferring to hang out with his brother and play, and his childlike attitude means he is not prepared to have his world rocked by grief. I am liking the story the more I think on it (still yet to do 9S's version of the ending). I'm a fan of the RPG Pillars Of Eternity, whose story revolves around the question "what if we can be assured of nothing?" What if you never find the answers you're looking for, or what if the answer turns out to be that there is no answer? Nier takes this a step further- "what if you can be assured of nothing, and what if the things you were finding meaning in weren't even worth it?" 9S loses 2B, and at the end of his revenge rampage after her death he finds out her function was to kill him if he found out too much information. Even Yorha, which felt really shocking to lose, was just a shell game in the process of wrapping up (I think, unless I misunderstood that reveal- the impression I got was that Yorha's function was to convince the androids humans still existed, and destroying the Bunker was the last step in covering up that deception). Also reminds me of the Doctor Who episode "Extremis" whose plot is about a book that drives anyone who reads it to suicide. Turns out the whole setting of the episode is a computer simulation and all the people in it are computer programs, and the book proves it. Anyway, I like how the plot in A/B foreshadows C, and knowledge of where things end up going, and a bit of new context, does make some stuff in A better in retrospect. I'm going to try and get as much side questing and weapon upgrading done as I can before doing the ending again E: 2B definitely shows emotion about 9S in the English version: https://youtu.be/538QUYPeBkw#t=629 "Subjects vital signs are too poor to attempt repair-" "SHUT UP! JUST DO WHAT I SAY!" E again: you can say the voice acting is bad, sure, but emotion is shown 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 19:21
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Cymbal Monkey posted:The Japanese version sounds pretty interesting, but I'm really only looking at the product I bought, the English release, in a vacuum, I don't feel a better Japanese version that gives 2B an actual personality in the time we get to know her excuses the very poor characterisation she got in the version the English speaking world played. Congrats! The product you bought, the English release, has the Japanese voice/text language included and fully qualifies as part of "the product you bought".
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Jan 8, 2018 19:22
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Congrats! The product you bought, the English release, has the Japanese voice/text language included and fully qualifies as part of "the product you bought". I don't speak Japanese, but thanks for the pedantry.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:23
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Cymbal Monkey posted:I don't speak Japanese, but thanks for the pedantry. It's not pedantry, nor do you need to speak a language to appreciate quality acting or nuance within a performance, be it video game or live action, Spanish, French, German or otherwise. The issues with the localisation with this game almost entirely related to voice direction, they're not inaccurately subtitled. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from playing through in Japanese and understanding the differences in characterisation.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:32
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2B suppresses her emotions because her job makes her very upset. An uninhibited 2B would probably just cry a lot and not get out of bed.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:32
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No Wave posted:2B suppresses her emotions because her job makes her very upset. An uninhibited 2B would probably just cry a lot and not get out of bed. I still would have liked to have known about this when she was still in the game.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:39
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But the reveal at the end feels good because it (re)defines the entire character with one piece of information. It's a trade off but I thought it was totally worth it, that scene is unforgettable for me.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:41
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No Wave posted:But the reveal at the end feels good because it (re)defines the entire character with one piece of information. It's a trade off but I thought it was totally worth it, that scene is unforgettable for me. Except there was no character previously. It was like "hey remember unfeeling murderbot? Well actually she did have a personality and this was what it was." There's nothing to subvert, it's not a twist, it's just inserting the character several hours too late to be engaging.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:44
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I think there was a lot that suggested she wasn't unfeeling, starting from the very start of the game with the tone of the black box touching, to when she sort of calls 9S nines, to crying when she thinks she's strangled him, etc. I'd thought she was a generic tough lady who softened up to 9S over time but there were still lingering questions/things about her (like how different she was from other YoRHa, it becomes weirder and weirder how comparatively unexpressive she is) that didn't fit which this ended up answering.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:50
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Cymbal Monkey posted:Except there was no character previously. It was like "hey remember unfeeling murderbot? Well actually she did have a personality and this was what it was." There's nothing to subvert, it's not a twist, it's just inserting the character several hours too late to be engaging. If you see the scene of her trying to save 9S (which is in the first hour of the game) and think of her as unfeeling murderbot, then that's kind of on you. I understand and agree that more of her character should have been seen while she was alive, but even without playing past route A it's still clear there's more going on with her than not feeling anything. Somebody fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 19:50
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I'm a few hours into the game, and I wouldn't describe 2B as an "unfeeling murderbot" at all. Maybe in the intro segment, but after that...not so much. By the end of the amusement park section she's clearly conflicted about killing all these machines. She just does it anyway because that's her job, and it's 9S who has repeatedly provided the exposition "they're just machines" prod to keep her going when she starts to get emotional. In fact I'm pretty sure that we're the bad guys. We don't have skulls on our hats, but we might as well. Or maybe we're all bad guys and it would be better if the giant boars ruled the world. I'm gonna unbookmark this thread now so I don't get drawn into something that spoils this game's crazy story too much. I look forward to coming back to this thread after I've beaten the game to find out how much I got wrong.
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