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hyphz posted:Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Look at the choices: No one thinks like this but you. It's just loving you. You are the problem in this equation and continue to be the problem.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:21
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hyphz posted:Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Look at the choices: or, have fun, keep having fun, Dave's character dies in a fun way. Dave makes a new character and has more fun.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:22
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hyphz posted:Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Look at the choices: you have failed to consider the idea that Dave dying could be interesting/fun for the player (probably not tho) and that the game literally gives you the tools to avoid dying if that's what you want (stress for resistances/trauma for dropping out of the conflict when you've had too much)
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Jan 8, 2018 22:23
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Please stop engaging with bargain bin Frank Trollman.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:24
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Mr. Maltose posted:What in the actual factual gently caress, my dude. They have been quoting the principles in the book, but as far as I am aware nobody has said what they actually did.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:29
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hyphz posted:They have been quoting the principles in the book, but as far as I am aware nobody has said what they actually did. We read the rules to the game we're playing you loving goofball.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:30
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hyphz posted:Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Like, if that's how you think RPGs work, whatever, but you don't seem to get that nobody else is thinking that way. You keep acting like players are incapable of enjoying challenges or being okay with character death, despite the fact that everyone is saying otherwise. Your problem with these games isn't the games, hyphz. It's you.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:31
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hyphz posted:They have been quoting the principles in the book, but as far as I am aware nobody has said what they actually did. the book is telling you what to do. it is giving you all the advice you need, and you are shoving your fingers into your ears right up to the knuckles to accommodate the cavernous space between the sides of your skull, and screaming I CAN'T HEAR YOU but once i get through a few sessions of Scum and Villainy, i'll be sure to report back to you how i followed the book's advice.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:32
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In AW there's no fixed 'number of encounters' because you're not writing adventures, you're setting up threats and PCs and playing to find out what happens based on the actions the PCs take. If you try and 'design an adventure' you are breaking the written rules of the game and it explicitly warns you that the game will be dumb and bad if you do that. Last time I ran it the entire session played out based off the skinner being obsessed with one of the chopper's gang and accidentally psychically lobotomising her and causing trouble with the fish cultists to try and distract from that.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:32
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hyphz posted:They have been quoting the principles in the book, but as far as I am aware nobody has said what they actually did. The reason they've been quoting the rules so much is because you seem to be rather ignorant of them.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:33
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TG Chat Thread: if there is no map there is no truth
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Jan 8, 2018 22:36
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xiw posted:In AW there's no fixed 'number of encounters' because you're not writing adventures, you're setting up threats and PCs and playing to find out what happens based on the actions the PCs take. If you try and 'design an adventure' you are breaking the written rules of the game and it explicitly warns you that the game will be dumb and bad if you do that. Last time I ran it the entire session played out based off the skinner being obsessed with one of the chopper's gang and accidentally psychically lobotomising her and causing trouble with the fish cultists to try and distract from that. Ok, well I'm not at all familiar with the AW setting. So what was the Skinner trying to do when they "accidentally psychically lobotimised" the gang member? Did they do that as the result of a failed roll or series of rolls and what was the goal of that series?
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Jan 8, 2018 22:39
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Can someone explain me this stupid argument in a paragraph or less I'm not reading four pages of this
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Jan 8, 2018 22:42
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Zurui posted:TG Chat Thread: if there is no map there is no truth if the gm has not immaculately rendered every single piece of food in the refrigerator, then my character will starve to death obviously. and wait, how will i know when to piss if they don't tell me my bladder is full? or am i supposed to be constantly checking for bladder fullness and pissing, and if i don't my bladder will explode?
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Jan 8, 2018 22:42
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Plutonis posted:Can someone explain me this stupid argument in a paragraph or less I'm not reading four pages of this Hyphz is asking weird hypothetical questions about PbtA games and Blades in the Dark because he can´t get his brain around the fact that there can be concepts around rpgs that "follow from the fiction" and asks for examples but hasn´t gotten too many to apply to his situation because he´s a realism and plausibility-inspired dnd-gm. Also the Wire as done by BitD was awesome to read. Thank you for that *thumbs_up* Oh, and he also seems to think or actually has players who hate fun and challenge.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:46
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Plutonis posted:Can someone explain me this stupid argument in a paragraph or less I'm not reading four pages of this EITHER: a) Hyphz cannot get their mind around the fact that Powered by the Apocalypse games do not run in the same way as DnD and thinks that "following the fiction" according to the rules of those games is some form is dishonesty. OR b) The entirety of Traditional Games is lead on by the most basic trolling since Three Billy Goats Gruff was penned. The Deleter fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 22:50
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Well, I’ll sum that up: a) I don’t see how concepts can follow from the fiction when that fiction isn’t written in advance of the time you need that concepts; b) I don’t see how concepts can follow from the fiction when PCs generally are exceptions to established rules in the fiction (if the
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Jan 8, 2018 22:56
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hyphz posted:Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Look at the choices: This is the most insane thing I have ever read, and I have so many questions. Does any RPG that isn't baked in with extremely concrete "get the treasure, run the loot treadmill" goals fit under this umbrella, or is it just PbtA? Is Call of Cthulhu, where you lose character resources/sanity to gain in-game information or magical power, storygaming bullshit or just incomprehensible bullshit? Just how much planning do you do for a given session, does every stablehand NPC have their own backstory or does interacting with them give an NPC Not Found error? Do you write flowcharts for possible dialogue options with NPCs? How do you allocate points for those dialogue options? If your players have had enough of a dungeon encounter, do they just hit backspace mid-combat to return to town with a blank slate or is there a hearthstone involved? If you ran Vampire... would you die?
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Jan 8, 2018 22:58
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Plutonis posted:Can someone explain me this stupid argument in a paragraph or less I'm not reading four pages of this RPGs are a land of contrasts
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Jan 8, 2018 23:01
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Fiction is always a lie, do not concern yourself with it. Follow me into the steam tunnels to find the truth.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:05
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ITT: people who have never played or read games nonetheless have strong opinions about how well they work.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:06
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hyphz posted:Well, I’ll sum that up: If you cast Avada Kedavra at someone, they die. Why did JK Rowling take exceptionality to the level of ignoring this when writing Harry Potter? Because he was the protagonist, and stories are about unusual things happening to the protagonist. The PCs are protagonists of your campaign, and unusual things will happen to them. I've heard of railroading before but I have never heard of someone who was so completely immersed in railroading as a concept that they didn't understand anything else.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:06
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Hyphz if you want to understand how this works in play have a listen to some actual play, that's how I figure out the gist of games I don't know https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsmw4wC7iOE
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Jan 8, 2018 23:13
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Freudian posted:If you cast Avada Kedavra at someone, they die. Why did JK Rowling take exceptionality to the level of ignoring this when writing Harry Potter? Because he was the protagonist, and stories are about unusual things happening to the protagonist. The PCs are protagonists of your campaign, and unusual things will happen to them. It’s not that, it’s the “follow the fiction” idea. One of the reasons I focus so much on that example of play from Blades, in fact. There is not a whole lot of information about the Dimmers in the book but it is established that: * they are experts at trafficking with ghosts which makes them evil and scary * they have a huge mansion * no one who enters has ever left. In the example of play which the same author wrote as how their game ought to be played: * the PCs see two rooms and nothing else * they meet one ghost who is easily subverted * they leave unbothered. That doesn’t seem to be following the fiction. It seems to be doing the absolute opposite of the fiction. (My phone just auto corrected that to “filleting the fiction” which seems really appropriate.)
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Jan 8, 2018 23:16
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hyphz posted:Ok, well I'm not at all familiar with the AW setting. So what was the Skinner trying to do when they "accidentally psychically lobotimised" the gang member? Did they do that as the result of a failed roll or series of rolls and what was the goal of that series? They were trying to do things based on their character's established relationships with the other PCs, which AW requires you to set up during chargen. This is the whole point of PBTA stuff - you're not trying to Get to the End of the Adventure, you're trying to spend gameplay time making the world feel real and the PC's lives not boring. To rewind all the way back: quote:The problem is that most of the classic answers end up with being: The big disconnect here is the 'so' - like, you're not playing AW to 'overcome obstacles' or 'use skill' in the first place! Like that's not what the game's about, you're not trying to win or demonstrate your game mastery, there are other games about that. The game has clear premises written down and there's nothing there about 'enjoy using your gameplay tactical skill to win' - I have a heap of other games which are good at that,. If you start playing a *world game trying to win or demonstrate your good strategy as a player you'll have as poo poo a time as if you try and play Fiasco to win.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:19
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Outside of some nihilistic takes on horror, the whole "no one ever comes out again" thing always has an implicit "until our heroes went in" tacked onto it.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:21
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hyphz posted:More like "I can't imagine my friends thinking that a story that ends with their characters getting shot is fun." (Thinking they might be shot is fine, though.) Form user JordanPro ran a game for me and another form user where, by the end, my character blew his own brains out because he had become a cyborg ruling in army but his opponent, another player character, successfully convinced him he was a slave in machines and since he always sought freedom he killed himself. I thought it was a loving great game and I really liked how it all turned out.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:25
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I'm almost certain that the Blades book says that rumours say no one who has entered the Dimmer Sisters' house has left alive.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:27
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thefakenews posted:I'm almost certain that the Blades book says that rumours say no one who has entered the Dimmer Sisters' house has left alive. Rumors are fictional and you have to follow the fiction so nothing can enter the witch house and that's why the game is unplayable.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:29
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remusclaw posted:Outside of some nihilistic takes on horror, the whole "no one ever comes out again" thing always has an implicit "until our heroes went in" tacked onto it. This is what's blowing my mind tbh. "Oh so no one who goes in ever comes out again but the PCs can? So much for following the fiction, checkmate bladeailures."
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Jan 8, 2018 23:32
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the rumour is wrong: Nobody enters the house alive. once you cross the threshold your ghost leaves your body and you have to heist it as a ghost, then head back to repossess your comatose body. gently caress that would be a sick heist
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Jan 8, 2018 23:34
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remusclaw posted:Outside of some nihilistic takes on horror, the whole "no one ever comes out again" thing always has an implicit "until our heroes went in" tacked onto it. Ok, but if the heroes can upend all of the established principles in the fiction, how can you “follow it” while running for them? Even if you don’t take “no one has left” literally, one ghost who turns out helpful and two rooms is a bit weak for a legendary haunted mansion, surely? But then when I think like that I realise I cannot think of any amount that would be enough.. same as the problem I have with “if the PCs succeed at robbing a modern and secure bank, then it was too easy for what it is” By the way “checkmate bladeailures” is exactly the opposite to how I feel.. hyphz fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 23:37
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rumble in the bunghole posted:the rumour is wrong: Nobody enters the house alive. once you cross the threshold your ghost leaves your body and you have to heist it as a ghost, then head back to repossess your comatose body. gently caress that would be a sick heist "Tonight's heist will be to steal our souls back from the Dimmer Sisters." gently caress yeah I'd be down for that.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:41
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They are not upending the fiction, part of fiction is that there are these characters, protagonists we will call them, or maybe heroes, that drive the story forward, and who often can, depending on the sort of story being told, do things that other people dare not do. RPG's in general, outside of the groggiest take on Call of Cthulhu perhaps, are telling these sort of stories.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:42
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hyphz posted:Ok, but if the heroes can upend all of the established principles in the fiction, how can you “follow it” while running for them? it's a spooky rumour, not an objective statement about the mansion quote:Even if you don’t take “no one has left” literally, one ghost who turns out helpful and two rooms is a bit weak for a legendary haunted mansion, surely? if the excerpt went on a little longer they'd be dealing with 3 powerful witches, whatever spirits they have on a tighter leash, hired goons, the demon they were trying to bind, etc. using a successful roll to give a basic ally is perfectly reasonable, same as getting a good reaction roll on some hobgoblins
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Jan 8, 2018 23:44
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hyphz posted:"Honestly" means based on the truth, but if there is no map there is no truth. All right, let me answer that for you. I run a ton of powered by the apocalypse games in person. I normally play off of what the players are giving me. If you want to know when I don't have an idea, I will usually make an excuse for two or more players to just chat and use that to come up with something interesting from there. It works pretty often as a lot of scenes and shows and stories involve two characters interacting, growing, and then that leading to a development. When I am doing things, I try to gauge my players interest. I also use my own interest. If the party is split, I also try to give consideration to time. Making sure to go back and forth between the scenes with no more lag than 5 minutes to make sure no one gets bored. I try to play off the energy my players give me, the enthusiasm they're portraying, and use that to tell when we're reaching the end of the scene. It's an art, not a science. I can usually tell when we reach the end. I'm no expert, and I will admit that my Urban Shadows game had a lot of problems in this regard, as I'm sure Quantum ninja would be quick to point out. But, it usually works. Masks the Next Generation is the game that I've run the best campaign I've ever run and that all came from just playing off my players, The energy they were giving, and sometimes just being direct with them behind the scenes and asking what they wanted. Like, one of my players in the mask game wanted their character to die in a blaze of glory. I tried to find ways to avoid it, but he wanted to die in a blaze of glory so I let him use his Moment of Truth to take out the main villain, The Lex Luthor-expy, by using his curse that he would one day be dragged to hell to drag both of them to hell. It led to the great twist that the team, after never being able to make a name, was finally able to come up with a team name by making a name in memoriam and allowing character to be reunited with her family because she actually was brought to Heaven because of her good Deeds. Everyone left that game feeling super satisfied. No one had a ton of loot. I gave everyone what they wanted. Outside of that one character, I allowed the outsider to finally reconcile their differences with their home planet. I allowed the Nova to be the Big drat hero and finally prove himself. I allow the Protege to get the respect of his mentor and finally be treated like an adult. And on and on. I worked with the energy my players were giving me scene-by-scene in between sessions, gauging what they wanted and trying to provide it. I'm no God among and I'm not trying to brag, but I just tried to figure out where they want the game to go and what I thought would be fun and we reached a lot of interesting places with the game. You don't need loot, you don't need levels, you don't need material benefits. You don't need the game to spell these things out when it comes to how long a scene should go or how many obstacles to throw. Just playoff the energy your players are giving you, the vibe of the room, the feeling of what the players want to experience. I mean, I ran chuubos once and that's a game where everyone is just living life day by day in a tiny little town and most advantageous involved two people talking about their relationships and having strange dreams and Wacky Adventures with the gravekeeper. Not every game is DND, there are a lot of games that provide difference experiences. Loot, levels, Etc are just numbers. There is no difference between that and something narrative as a reward as long as the player feels like they accomplish something and rewarded. Work with what they feel is rewarding and play all that energy and information. Because, in regards to ladder, you can always just ask in between sessions what they want for the character and you can work with them, but always keep the reality that they could fail or could twist. Like any story that still being written, even if the writer knows where they want to end up, they can reach that point and realize it entirely different ending is perfect and I've had that happen a lot and games so even when we discuss these things we still find amazing conclusions from the emergence nature of the conversation. Just work of your players, workr with the mood, and you'll go far.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:44
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If RPGs are a conversation, then like all conversations being able to read the room and mood before and during the conversation is paramount to all else. You can have all the maps and plans and notes you want but they mean nothing if you cannot hold and sustain the conversation in the first place. Disregard, edit and improvise as necessary, nothing is sacred.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:47
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hyphz posted:Even if you don’t take “no one has left” literally, one ghost who turns out helpful and two rooms is a bit weak for a legendary haunted mansion, surely? the example you're talking about posted:“The first few notes of an old lullaby come from the seemingly vacant piano as a softly glowing bluish vapor swirls into existence near it. Do you hear mournful singing? It seems so far away...” “Okay, okay... holy crap you are freaking me out,” Dylan says. “Let’s get going and grab what we came for before more ghosts start popping out of the walls.” “Hmmm,” says Allison. “We don’t know exactly where the artifact is in the house... Dowler just said it was in here somewhere. Maybe I should Compel this ghost here to tell us where it is. Save us the trouble of searching every room. Turn their haunted security against them!” “I like this plan,” Ryan says. “I like any plan that rolls sixes,” Dylan says. “Ha ha. I’m gonna Attune to the ghost and compel it to obey me,” Allison says. Really wouldn't call that 'turning helpful', it's a desperate attempt to Compel a ghost that paid off at a cost On the 2 rooms thing it's just a shorter mission, a single heist isn't supposed to be an entire session, especially when it's kept tight as an example for a book.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:53
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hyphz posted:In the example of play which the same author wrote as how their game ought to be played: literally none of this is true tho they meet one ghost who they have to pay a significant cost to overcome in two of the examples, and have exceptional luck with in the critical example they do not leave unbothered, they leave with harm taken and stress marked, heat and plenty of enmity from the dimmer sisters
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Jan 8, 2018 23:58
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the dimmer sisters are a tier 2 faction, which the players are on par with. they are not "legendary" opposition
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Jan 8, 2018 23:59
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