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Waffles Inc. posted:The capital ships in star wars have manned gun stations that fire like 20th century artillery Thats cool because WW2 naval combat In Space was always the metaphor that Star Wars operated on. Its simple and relatable and you dont have to think about it to understand how things relate or the cause-effect of whats going on. This movie though mixes its metaphors and brings on new elements that dont fit, while also doubling down on other aspects of space WW2. It brings in that space has no air or gravity in one scene (Leia) and then draws attention to space gravity in another (curving lasers and space bomb bays). Once the internal logic of space battles gets broken by something like this or hyperspace ramming, you start having to think about The Rules of all this nonsense and the movie has to bring in more fig-leaf technobabble and it sucks bad and I cant help paying attention to the lovely internal logic.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:13
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Who cares?
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Jan 9, 2018 19:24
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SickZip posted:Thats cool because WW2 naval combat In Space was always the metaphor that Star Wars operated on. Its simple and relatable and you dont have to think about it to understand how things relate or the cause-effect of whats going on. First of all, no you don't. Also, the space bomb bays really aren't that hard to figure out with, like, half a second's thought. Somehow (movie magic), there is gravity on the ships carrying the bombs, like there is somehow gravity on all ships in movies like this (again, movie magic, with maybe some technobabble). They release the bombs, they drop while on the ship. From the moment they leave the ship, and the ship's gravity, inertia will carry them the rest of the way. The TIE Bombers in ESB "dropped" bombs on things below them, too. This one is easy.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:27
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SickZip posted:Thats cool because WW2 naval combat In Space was always the metaphor that Star Wars operated on. Its simple and relatable and you dont have to think about it to understand how things relate or the cause-effect of whats going on. space has never had air, we see this in esb. the lasers arc and the bombs fall because it looks cool and fits with the world war 2 aesthetic. the hyperspace ramming scene is a) more world war 2 imagery and b) important because of the narrative weight that it carries. the hyperspace kamikaze doesn't work because of "internal logic" or "technobabble" but because it represents a character sacrificing themselves to achieve an end
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Jan 9, 2018 19:28
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I thought in hyperspace they literally weren't in normal space anymore.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:31
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Serf posted:space has never had air, we see this in esb. the lasers arc and the bombs fall because it looks cool and fits with the world war 2 aesthetic. the hyperspace ramming scene is a) more world war 2 imagery and b) important because of the narrative weight that it carries. the hyperspace kamikaze doesn't work because of "internal logic" or "technobabble" but because it represents a character sacrificing themselves to achieve an end Capital ships didn't ram each other in WWII. It's more like...I don't know Trafalgar imagery? Salamis imagery?
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Jan 9, 2018 19:34
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I thought in hyperspace they literally weren't in normal space anymore. I think that's never been made entirely clear in Star Wars. You at least have to account for normal space, since you have to plot a route, because otherwise you "could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova".
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Jan 9, 2018 19:35
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porfiria posted:Capital ships didn't ram each other in WWII. It's more like...I don't know Trafalgar imagery? Salamis imagery? compared to the size of the flagship, their cruiser might as well have been a zero
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Jan 9, 2018 19:39
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SickZip posted:Once the internal logic of space battles gets broken by something like this or hyperspace ramming, you start having to think about The Rules of all this nonsense and the movie has to bring in more fig-leaf technobabble and it sucks bad and I cant help paying attention to the lovely internal logic. nah. I mean, you can, but the end result is creating fanfiction and wishing for a movie that doesn't exist. The rhetorical end game for this line of thinking ends any and all discussion with, "ok." It's a half step removed from thinking a movie is bad because guns use too many bullets or swordfights aren't done exactly as two 15th century knights would fight or something imo it's ok just to be fine with the movie as presented, since the road you're going down doesn't have any answers for you
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Jan 9, 2018 19:42
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thrawn527 posted:First of all, no you don't. I think the ESB instance is forgivable because they were little balls of light and therefore had no contextual relevance and were basically magic. Bomb bays in this movie have nothing to conceal the mechanics of it, so it's open for nitpicking. And tbh now that you mentioned the gravity inside the bomber, the atmosphere and with the doors open no less, that kind of bothers me a little bit. Basically if they had always arced or didn't arc in this one, I wouldn't care as much. Consistency is important. And the bombers were dumb as gently caress for a million reasons and seem like a horrible idea just based on looking at the thing.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:48
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Serf posted:space has never had air, we see this in esb. the lasers arc and the bombs fall because it looks cool and fits with the world war 2 aesthetic. the hyperspace ramming scene is a) more world war 2 imagery and b) important because of the narrative weight that it carries. the hyperspace kamikaze doesn't work because of "internal logic" or "technobabble" but because it represents a character sacrificing themselves to achieve an end It's a cool moment, but it's so effective that it undercuts all of the weapons they use. Almost every small fighter they lost in the first bombing run had a hyperdrive. They could have sacrificed a half-dozen of them to annihilate the Imperial fleet. Hell, they should have done the same thing with the two support ships as well. There's no point in a Death Star either - someone will just destroy it by slamming an asteroid with a hyperdrive attached to it into your latest superweapon du jour. Taking out planets is just as easy. If you're worried about human lives, use droids instead. Weaponizing FTL is a really bad idea in sci-fi because FTL involves so much energy and is so mobile that there quickly becomes no point in doing anything other than slapping FTL drives on chunks of rock to hurl them at the enemy. Now, if it hadn't sliced the ship into pieces and has just had a powerful impact that was less effective than a bombing run, that would have been a different story. I'd still expect missiles to run on that tech though - it punched straight through shields at a longer range than enemy supercapital ships can engage at.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:49
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It's not that I think the movie is bad because of these things, they're minor, but they still bug me and it would have been a pretty simple thing to just not do.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:49
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I thought in hyperspace they literally weren't in normal space anymore. They still accelerate into hyperspace (they don't just blip out), so presumably Laura Dern's ship rammed Kylo's death wagon while in that acceleration part. God help me, I'm talking about Star Wars physics. 
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Jan 9, 2018 19:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT7F0eKfctg&t=72s
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Jan 9, 2018 19:52
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Weaponizing ftl does open alot of weird possibilities within the internal logic but it was also undeniably cool as poo poo, which is something that can't be said for the "please shoot us were slow and vertically huge and can only hurt you if we're directly above(?) you in spaaaaace" so I'm willing to criticize them more.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:53
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albany academy posted:Weaponizing ftl does open alot of weird possibilities within the internal logic but it was also undeniably cool as poo poo, which is something that can't be said for the "please shoot us were slow and vertically huge and can only hurt you if we're directly above(?) you in spaaaaace" so I'm willing to criticize them more. It was really cool. Its problem is that two other ships sacrificed themselves ineffectually just beforehand, when they could have turned those ships around and taken out a star destroyer. The support ships were doomed and they knew it; why not wipe out part of the enemy fleet in the process?
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Jan 9, 2018 19:56
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Because people are wusses, duh
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Jan 9, 2018 19:58
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I thought in hyperspace they literally weren't in normal space anymore. It's always been the case that large masses in the real space cause a noticeable effect in hyperspace that can cause a ship to crash. The Empire has special gravity generating ships to pull ships out of hyperspace 
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Jan 9, 2018 19:59
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Dirk the Average posted:It was really cool. Its problem is that two other ships sacrificed themselves ineffectually just beforehand, when they could have turned those ships around and taken out a star destroyer. The support ships were doomed and they knew it; why not wipe out part of the enemy fleet in the process? They were actively being fired upon, while the cruiser was not.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:00
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I get what you're saying but asking why a ship full of scared people are gonna instantly and simultaneously go "yeah let's loving kamikaze those assholes!" is unrealistic. Unless that whole sequence really did take as long as it felt it did, in which case there would have been ample time to have a healthy debate and vote on the matter.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:00
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Dirk the Average posted:It was really cool. Its problem is that two other ships sacrificed themselves ineffectually just beforehand, when they could have turned those ships around and taken out a star destroyer. The support ships were doomed and they knew it; why not wipe out part of the enemy fleet in the process? Because the guns were trained on them. Hux and an admiral even talk about where to point the guns before the ramming scene.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:01
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Serf posted:the lasers arc because the movies are science-fantasy world war 2/samurai soap operas It is the year 1945. It is the future.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:01
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Dirk the Average posted:It was really cool. Its problem is that two other ships sacrificed themselves ineffectually just beforehand, when they could have turned those ships around and taken out a star destroyer. The support ships were doomed and they knew it; why not wipe out part of the enemy fleet in the process? why isn't "because they didn't" a good enough answer? who knows more about the possible weaponization of a starship? you, or the captain of *checks wookieepedia* the Ninka, one of the destroyed ships that doesn't do it? they didn't do it because...they didn't.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:03
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The guy in charge of the Dreadnaught, Captain Canady, was a miserable, salty old prick in the vein of Brendan Gleeson. (Brendan Gleeson, of course, being Hux’s real life dad) I wish we could’ve gotten a few more scenes out of him. Dude had a personality.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:04
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Dirk the Average posted:It was really cool. Its problem is that two other ships sacrificed themselves ineffectually just beforehand, when they could have turned those ships around and taken out a star destroyer. The support ships were doomed and they knew it; why not wipe out part of the enemy fleet in the process? Weren't the other ships waaaay smaller than the main cruiser? It'd have turned out like when Vader's Star Destroyer coming out of hyperspace instantly shreds those X-Wings and smaller ships in Rogue One. People keep asking why folks don't hyperspace through each other but it's pretty obviously a really specialized situation you can't decide to do on a whim, otherwise everyone would do it and we wouldn't see it conveyed as a really specialized situation you can't decided to do on a whim. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 20:05
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I saw the movie twice and don't remember any curved plasma shots.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:05
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albany academy posted:I get what you're saying but asking why a ship full of scared people are gonna instantly and simultaneously go "yeah let's loving kamikaze those assholes!" is unrealistic. They evacuated. The captain was the last person aboard. I do buy the not being shot at thing because iirc, you drop shields to go to hyperspace. That being said, if the drives are that destructive, the fighters still should have done it, and they should have them mounted on asteroids. All other weapon technology is frankly obsolete when compared to how disproportionately powerful that was for how little of an investment it would be.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:06
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Gonz posted:The guy in charge of the Dreadnaught, Captain Canady, was a miserable, salty old prick in the vein of Brendan Gleeson. (Brendan Gleeson, of course, being Hux’s real life dad) I enjoyed that the one First Order officer who seems somewhat competent is the only one who looks old enough to have been in the proper Empire. Waffles Inc. posted:why isn't One of my favourite George Lucas interview answers was when a fan asked him, "What happened to Luke, Han and Leia after Return of the Jedi?" and he said, "They died."
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Jan 9, 2018 20:08
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Dirk the Average posted:That being said, if the drives are that destructive, the fighters still should have done it, and they should have them mounted on asteroids. All other weapon technology is frankly obsolete when compared to how disproportionately powerful that was for how little of an investment it would be. you're staring down the barrel of 2 options: - holdo discovered all new technology and from this very in canon moment all space warefare has been rendered obsolote - it's never happened before in the movies for a good reason "why don't they..." is answered with "because they haven't before". You're apparently looking for one of us to reply to you with an answer as if we're an in-universe warfare engineer. The answer you're looking for exists within the text, on the faces of the characters who witness what happens, and furthermore, within the narrative of the film.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:11
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Wheat Loaf posted:I enjoyed that the one First Order officer who seems somewhat competent is the only one who looks old enough to have been in the proper Empire. I was really sad that guy got killed so fast, it would have been great to have someone actually competent for Ren to play off of instead of dumbass Hux or windbag Snoke. I don't know, Hux was fine in Force Awakens but after how he is here, I wouldn't miss him if they just killed him off early on in episode IX, hell have Phasma step up as the person in charge or something.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:12
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Dirk the Average posted:They evacuated. The captain was the last person aboard. The escape ships not the main cruiser is what I meant. One person deciding to kamikaze is more likely than a lot of people deciding to
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Jan 9, 2018 20:13
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Dirk the Average posted:It's a cool moment, but it's so effective that it undercuts all of the weapons they use. Almost every small fighter they lost in the first bombing run had a hyperdrive. They could have sacrificed a half-dozen of them to annihilate the Imperial fleet. jesus christ
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Jan 9, 2018 20:13
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They're shields were down and they were caught off guard. This isn't that complicated or mysterious.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:One of my favourite George Lucas interview answers was when a fan asked him, "What happened to Luke, Han and Leia after Return of the Jedi?" and he said, "They died." Prescient George Lucas!
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Jan 9, 2018 20:18
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dirk the average you should check out the star wars reddit or even r/asksciencefiction seriously, people there will earnestly engage on this topic with you
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Jan 9, 2018 20:18
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This is the kind of thing you should think a lot about if you're, say, designing a roleplaying game where the participants have a lot of time and a lot of freedom with the material, and are going to ask these questions. In a film series it's easily dispensed with.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:20
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Neo Rasa posted:People keep asking why folks don't hyperspace through each other but it's pretty obviously a really specialized situation you can't decide to do on a whim, otherwise everyone would do it and we wouldn't see it conveyed as a really specialized situation you can't decided to do on a whim. A cruiser crippled and basically destroyed a ship that dwarfs star destroyers. The difference in cost between the two is staggering. With that kind of effectiveness, you work to actively make those special circumstances happen, and you make giant missiles that are nothing but rocks with shields, engines, power, hyperdrive, and a Droid crew. Expensive, but so much cheaper than a star destroyer. It was really cool, but also way too effective. I would have liked to see it take out just a portion of the enemy ship to take long range weapons offline and provide enough distraction for Finn and co. to leave. Edit: Fair enough. I'll drop it here. It was the thing that irked me the most in the movie because the series revolves around impractical superweapons. Dirk the Average fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 20:20
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The first order was asleep at the wheel and not expecting it. Likely they would have had an effective counter had they expected it.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:21
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How does a worm live on an asteroid ??? It doesn't make any sense !
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Jan 9, 2018 20:22
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Halloween Jack posted:This is the kind of thing you should think a lot about if you're, say, designing a roleplaying game where the participants have a lot of time and a lot of freedom with the material, and are going to ask these questions. In a film series it's easily dispensed with. I would say anyone posting here has too much time on their hands, so post away with the mass to energy formulae, I say. It beats rehashing whether or not Qui Gon is a dick for the seven millionth time.
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Jan 9, 2018 20:23
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