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Ross Payton of Role Playing Public Radio had a patron-only side-project called "WoD The Heck", wherein he was doing read-throughs of World of Darkness books and watching the reactions of his various hapless guests. He wrote today that he was ending the series because of the anti-vaxx, anti-abortion and transphobia in the recent Werewolf book, as well as Mark Rein Hagen's morally compromised views towards Nazis. Instead, RPPR is going a different series, this time about gamifying shows and concepts on various streaming sites. I bring it up because I appreciate the stand that the group is taking, if only from a "this is making me uncomfortable and I don't want to do it anymore" basis. Thank you all, I value the insight. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 15:56
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You mean the latest Werewolf book, right?
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Jan 9, 2018 15:58
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Rand Brittain posted:You mean the latest Werewolf book, right? Yes, sorry, Werewolf, I stand corrected. That it was named "Changing Ways" threw me off.
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Jan 9, 2018 16:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:Ross Payton of Role Playing Public Radio had a patron-only side-project called "WoD The Heck", wherein he was doing read-throughs of World of Darkness books and watching the reactions of his various hapless guests. It is a little depressing that, coming up on WoD stuff as I did, while in the past they got stuff hilariously wrong you could at least probably say in most cases their heart was in the right place. The first time I noticed gay NPCs in any RPG was in Vampire (admittedly, it was one personality of an MPD Malkavian so we are in a two steps forward situation). Not even saying they had a lock on it, and they certainly didn't get it write even a lot of the time, but it was something they pushed. And now not only have they done a huge u-turn* they seem to be accelerating towards the largest heavy object they can crash into possible. *No, wait, I forget that they totally have friends of example minorities that prove they're not <blank>-ist, ha ha.. ha.
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Jan 9, 2018 16:33
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All the changes that RPPR have issues with were pushed in by WWP. I wouldn't be surprised if OPP shies away from pushing out any more 20th anniversary books because of the bad optics.
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Jan 9, 2018 16:51
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They've already done the core ones anyway. Just in time for me to stop buying from them!
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Jan 9, 2018 17:00
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Wraith 20 hasn't come out yet, but I doubt that WWP will care enough about it to make changes, beyond making weird pronouncements about who has souls or not.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:07
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moths posted:My group did a lot of 13A playtesting, and most of our problems and concerns were addressed so I feel like we did a good job. 13A is turning out to be my favorite d20 system by a wide margin so it worked, but I am curious: did you ever run into things like the hyper-lethality of certain monsters as a problem, or was it just inherent to the sort of game style you were running? I’m thinking of things like the hill giant; it does about half the average 6th level character’s HP in damage, and then doubles it if the target is at half. Or just the presence of save-or-dies in general, like the medusa, even though the four-strikes system sort of mitigates it that’s a LOT.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:15
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Kurieg posted:All the changes that RPPR have issues with were pushed in by WWP. I wouldn't be surprised if OPP shies away from pushing out any more 20th anniversary books because of the bad optics. Yeah, nobody in a decision-making position at White Wolf right now has anything to do with the company that existed in the 90's and aughts.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:39
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Mister Olympus posted:13A is turning out to be my favorite d20 system by a wide margin so it worked, but I am curious: did you ever run into things like the hyper-lethality of certain monsters as a problem, or was it just inherent to the sort of game style you were running? I’m thinking of things like the hill giant; it does about half the average 6th level character’s HP in damage, and then doubles it if the target is at half. Or just the presence of save-or-dies in general, like the medusa, even though the four-strikes system sort of mitigates it that’s a LOT. I've definitely seen/heard that there's an issue with certain monsters being very overturned myself; I've never been on the GM side of the screen but when we faced down a hill giant it kinda felt like, huh, this was made to challenge a way more optimized group than mine.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:11
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I don't think they've done a u-turn so much as they just kind of suck at being modern liberals. MRH and Brucato really stand out with it since we can compare what they were doing in the 90s with now and see how little has changed. But most of nuWW also has that disengaged feel where they formed a political attitude at some point along the 80s/90s punk leftist spectrum, and then were never engaged in enough political discourse to have that attitude get challenged, revised, and move ahead with the times. I grew up in that mileu. Or at least nearby, there were like 8 angry metal-goth-punks in my lovely town, but we drove to the city on the weekends a lot. I think we tend to forget in the post 9/11 world that the 90s America just...didn't have a lot of unifying causes to fight about. I don't want to make the decade sound rosy or the "good ol' days" or some poo poo. There were plenty of social issues. But they were mostly specific issues in specific places, not imminent existential threats like the cold war, or pivots for the trajectory of the country as a whole like civil rights. Even LGBT stuff, which was starting to gain public steam, seemed a long game at the time. So what do you do when most social causes are all specific banal stuff that don't appeal to the teen wanting to show off their righteous toughness? You cop a lot of attitude. And boy did we ever. Righteous stances are super easy when your opponents are all either declining due to their own ineffectuality or will mostly be defeated by just waiting for them to die off. We were never going to actually fight nazis, or if we were it was going to be skinheads at a club who were mostly just young rebels who picked a different way to be "controversial". So of course we could take bold stances like "letting nazis beat us up is how we win". It was never a fight we'd actually have to wage. I still see some of the people I knew from that era. Some are still really close friends, others I see maybe once a year at a party. And you can really see the difference between those who kept going with politics and social causes after 9/11 and that era ended, and those that basically focused on other aspects of life and only passively engaged with political issues. The latter sometimes sound a lot like MRH, Brucato, or nuWolf, still focused on the grandiose symbolic toughness that is how you stand out when there's not much actual work to do. They haven't kept up with how social groups have changed, or where social causes are now focused, because they're not actually going to get involved with the fight any more than they're forced to do so. For them its all about passion and being EXTREEEEEMMMMEEEE. A modern proponent of passive resistance as a tactic might talk about how protesters should focus on protecting vulnerable members of the local populace, or how nonaggression is less about defeating the nazis as it is about trying to channel the police engaging the nazis instead of fighting everyone. MRH talks about how if leftists were awesome enough to get their asses beat, the nazis would lose, because that's how it goes in stories. Brucato puts trans people on a creepy pedestal, because he's never bothered to learn how the LGBT movement has changed, and still thinks fawning praise is somehow subversive instead of creepy. The nuWolf people talk a lot about edgy revolution because that's what they want it to be, not this boring stuff where you're hanging out with old normie ladies from the suburbs in group phone call sessions to pressure legislators, or lots of protests where there are no nazis to totally get your rear end beat for righteous martyrdom. Its the liberalism of an era of posturing, only now there's actual work to be done and those grand ideas don't actually translate well to practice.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:15
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Mister Olympus posted:13A is turning out to be my favorite d20 system by a wide margin so it worked, but I am curious: did you ever run into things like the hyper-lethality of certain monsters as a problem, or was it just inherent to the sort of game style you were running? I double checked my feedback emails, and it looks like we actually had an encounter with a minotaur who was did serious damage. I pointed it at the beefiest hero, he took a sizeable chunk out of him, and then the players immediately adapted their tactics. But they definitely needed to adapt, which seemed like the point of a thing like that. Sorry I can't be more specific, the NDA lifted but I forget exactly how they handled it. You could try asking in the 13A thread here though.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:37
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It's worth mentioning that The World of Darkness spent more time without MRH at the helm than it did With him, before the End Times books came out. Even more if you consider that the last book he really worked on was Wraith before he started working on spinning up his side projects. He came up for the Ideas for the World of Darkness, but it was the Wiecks that made it work. 1st Edition WoD books were "Mature" in that they were dark and edgy and had boobs in them. When White Wolf was publishing the Revised books that actually bothered trying to take a look at real world adult issues, MRH was publishing a collectable action figure game.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:52
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It's hardly a new phenomenon that things which seemed progressive and forward-thinking back in the day now seem regressive and gross. That's just progress. "A conservative is yesterday's liberal" is an older idea than any of us.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:02
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Pope Guilty posted:It's hardly a new phenomenon that things which seemed progressive and forward-thinking back in the day now seem regressive and gross. That's just progress. "A conservative is yesterday's liberal" is an older idea than any of us. It doesn't explain why Swedracula is trying to drag us back into the past and making everyone look even worse as a result.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:08
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The fact that the new White Wolf touts the the old games as having "relevancy" at the time makes me want to go back and actually do an amateur critical analysis of up in the original games. From all of my recollection it's extremely confused and few of them deal with real-world issues like Ericcson & Co. seem to think (seriously, there's Werewolf's facile environmentalism and Mage / Changeling's intensely selective antimodernism, but I can't think of anything else...?). But given infinite time, it'd be interesting to try and work out what values and messages the original games do tout, intended or otherwise.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:13
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Kurieg posted:It doesn't explain why Swedracula is trying to drag us back into the past and making everyone look even worse as a result. Because he's a particular kind of loser rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:14
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The fact that the new White Wolf touts the the old games as having "relevancy" at the time makes me want to go back and actually do an amateur critical analysis of up in the original games. From all of my recollection it's extremely confused and few of them deal with real-world issues like Ericcson & Co. seem to think (seriously, there's Werewolf's facile environmentalism and Mage / Changeling's intensely selective antimodernism, but I can't think of anything else...?). But given infinite time, it'd be interesting to try and work out what values and messages the original games do tout, intended or otherwise. Pope Guilty posted:Because he's a particular kind of loser rear end in a top hat. Twice. So I guess what I'm saying is I found Swedracula's target audience but it's not a very large one, and the rest of us aren't happy to be in the same room as them.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:23
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So apparently games are being counterfeited . . . a lot? I had heard of MtG cards and such, but not Ticket to Ride or 7 Wonders and the like.
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Jan 9, 2018 21:30
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So how long until Chris Fields gets hired to write WoD books?
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Jan 9, 2018 21:37
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homullus posted:So apparently games are being counterfeited . . . a lot? I knew about counterfeit GW models being sold cheaply online, but I had no idea it was a thing with boardgames as well. So if I'm understanding this correctly, some guy(s) just buys a copy of Carcassonne or whatever and sends it to some Chinese print shop and tells them to make a couple thousand identical copies?
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Jan 9, 2018 21:40
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Comrade Koba posted:I knew about counterfeit GW models being sold cheaply online, but I had no idea it was a thing with boardgames as well. I have an idea about bringing 4e back to market...
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Jan 9, 2018 21:42
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I wonder how much (if any) thought has been given to combating piracy by reeling-back MSRPs to what customers are willing to pay, along with incorporating PoD to keep more of your lines in print. You could still release high production premium editions, but die-hards aside most people consider $79.95 steep for a boardgame. If the same essential game was available scaled to sell legitimately at $20, I don't think there would be as much interest in counterfeiting. The knockoffs would have to cut too far to the bone to be worthwhile.
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Jan 9, 2018 21:58
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moths posted:I wonder how much (if any) thought has been given to combating piracy by reeling-back MSRPs to what customers are willing to pay, [...] Well it's an Asmodee exec giving the interview, so none.
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Jan 9, 2018 22:03
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moths posted:I wonder how much (if any) thought has been given to combating piracy by reeling-back MSRPs to what customers are willing to pay, along with incorporating PoD to keep more of your lines in print. There are a lot of board games I do think should be cheaper and could manage that by reducing the number of unique components or using simpler ones, but there are legitimate reasons a game that can be counterfeited for profit at $20 can't be legitimately sold profitably at that same price point, or even one all that close to it. EDIT: Plus, counterfeiters typically exploit the poo poo out of their workers, even by the already terrible standards set by transnational corporations.
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Jan 9, 2018 22:17
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moths posted:I wonder how much (if any) thought has been given to combating piracy by reeling-back MSRPs to what customers are willing to pay, along with incorporating PoD to keep more of your lines in print. I think you may be unaware that games are not high-margin items: they are not sold for a lot more than they cost to make. I encourage you to attempt a Rutibex home knockoff of your favorite boardgame costing at least $80 for $20. And then look at it honestly, and decide whether you would pay $20 for what you just made. I think you will fail on both counts (making it for under $20, and making something that cost more than $20 that you would buy for $20); I certainly would fail.
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Jan 9, 2018 22:25
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homullus posted:So apparently games are being counterfeited . . . a lot? The whole interview seems extremely over the top without any grounding. Speculating that 70% of some products sold in North America are actually counterfeits is a hell of a claim to make. All without a single example.
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Jan 9, 2018 23:06
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I see bootleg boardgames on the regular here in the Philippines nowadays. No statistics, but they definitely exist.
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Jan 9, 2018 23:10
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homullus posted:I think you may be unaware that games are not high-margin items: they are not sold for a lot more than they cost to make. No I'm completely aware of this. I might have been unclear in expressing what I meant earlier, though. Currently an $80 game is a premium product, priced at a premium. But no game NEEDS top shelf components. Those are for BGG people to spooge themselves over in unboxing videos. The current model forces everyone to buy the deluxe edition because that's all that exists. Standees work as well as miniatures, the cards version of wings of war plays as well as x-Wing. Someone like FFG or Asmodee releasing normal versions alongside the coffinbox ones would go a long way towards eliminating piracy. And even more so if they're able to keep the regular editions in print. We're actually starting to see this with games like Love Letter existing in both a $30 deluxe and $10 mass market format. Despite LL being a great game, I'd expect minimal piracy problems because of the legit $10 version.
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Jan 9, 2018 23:26
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Kurieg posted:I really don't understand how the new Werewolf is supposed to play out, particularly with politics the way they are recently. "We're going to save the environment, but we're doing it our way, no negotiation, and we'll kill you if you disagree. Also women why aren't you pregnant yet." Strikes me as a villain faction, and not even a very compelling one. Makes one concerned for the Black Furies, huh? One of their crimes is not going to want to be pregnant all the time. I know it. Also I feel like they're going to have a Riot Grrl camp, because that will be the last vaguely feminist group the writers will have heard of.
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Jan 9, 2018 23:27
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moths posted:No I'm completely aware of this. I might have been unclear in expressing what I meant earlier, though. As for changing components, I'm not sold on that either. A lot of the games mentioned also aren't $80 premium titles. They're in the $30-$40 range. And they have a lot more components than Love Letter, which is a card game that comes with some wooden chits. X-Wing isn't a great example here either. The fact that it has minis is a big part of its selling point from the word go. Maybe it could sell as well or better without minis, but then it would also be targeting a different market segment. There's nothing inherently wrong with a game that requires minis, and on the scale of minis games its fairly reasonable. Are there unsavory things going on with some publishing companies in regards to how they're pricing things? Yes. But frankly it has a lot more to do with underpaying creators and taking a bigger cut for executives; a more equitable approach is unlikely to shift prices much, just make it so who gets the profits from a game is more in line who put the work in.
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Jan 9, 2018 23:54
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Dawgstar posted:Makes one concerned for the Black Furies, huh? One of their crimes is not going to want to be pregnant all the time. I know it. Also I feel like they're going to have a Riot Grrl camp, because that will be the last vaguely feminist group the writers will have heard of. Apparently the black furies have decided to stop helping humanity because they aren't sufficiently woke. Seriously.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:02
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Publishers make board games with flossy components because that's what people want, it's not just weirdos on BGG jerking off to their collection. Expectations for designer board games these days are past the point of brown wooden cubes and standees on a cheap board, and arguing that you could easily produce a game using nothing but inexpensive components ignores the very real fact that if your game looks and feels like poo poo that people will probably judge the book by its cover regardless of whether or not it's merited.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:I see bootleg boardgames on the regular here in the Philippines nowadays. No statistics, but they definitely exist. I recall seeing quite a few on AliExpress. The prices were okay: cheap but not so cheap that it was worth waiting a month to get the item.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:13
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Kai Tave posted:Publishers make board games with flossy components because that's what people want, it's not just weirdos on BGG jerking off to their collection. If this were 100% true, then nobody would be buying sub-par counterfeits. I think it's more that component inflation has gotten to a point where it's assumed that everyone wants wooden parts, double thick boards, miniatures, and other premium bits. Or maybe people genuinely want them, but it seems like it's just as likely a function of having no alternative. To compare it to the music industry, they quit crying about piracy after $20 CDs were replaced by $8 downloads. Legit purchases got a lot more appealing. The example in the article was that pirates learned a game would sell great at $20. So why didn't Asmodee learn that lesson and produce a version they can sell for $20 with the same (or bigger) margin? If the game is fun on it's own merits with cardboard pieces, they'll certainly have people double dip for the premium one with wooden ones.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:56
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So is Changing Ways full of crappy stuff or is it some kind of preview for Swedracula's Werewolf?
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Jan 10, 2018 00:58
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It's an otherwise okay book dealing with the more mundane bits of being a werewolf, akin to W:TF's Blood of the Wolf. It also has 3 bits that were put there by expressed request of White Wolf Publishing that are intensely regressive and completely against tone.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:03
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Kurieg posted:It's an otherwise okay book dealing with the more mundane bits of being a werewolf, akin to W:TF's Blood of the Wolf. So WWP were actively like "This book doesn't have enough boneheaded nonsense, please put more in"?
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Jan 10, 2018 01:07
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Lightning Lord posted:So WWP were actively like "This book doesn't have enough boneheaded nonsense, please put more in"? No. They specifically added three things that we know of.
They're obviously doing this to try and make the 20th anniversary stuff compatable with 5th edition but they really don't have to, and in fact shouldn't. Since 5th edition takes place Post End Times, and 20th anniversary is explicitly set before. If they really wanted to pull this poo poo they could have just said it was reactionary to the apocalypse without pissing on Revised to mark their territory. They also intervened in the V20 black hand book, indicating that Vampires no longer have souls unless they achieve Golconda, so all those vampires that turned into wraiths rather explicitly achieved Golconda, even the sabbat ones who abandoned the Via Humanitas. Retconning books that have been out for over 20 years.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:24
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moths posted:If this were 100% true, then nobody would be buying sub-par counterfeits. If the counterfeit boardgame situation is anything like the counterfeit miniatures issue that Games Workshop has been dealing with, people aren't necessarily buying sub-par knockoffs because they secretly yearn for budget tabletop games, they're buying them because they're hoping to get something roughly the same quality but at a massively reduced price. Like you could play 40K with homemade standees if you were actually budget conscious, but it turns out that people DO want the giant Bloodstomper Fuckmurder Daemon miniatures, they just want them at Chinese recaster prices. I mean this also assumes that people are deliberately seeking out these sub-par counterfeit games instead of buying them unknowingly. The article does also point out that a lot of people who buy these knockoffs go on to complain about the shoddy quality, missing components, etc and try to get refunds and replacements from the actual publisher who then has to explain that what they bought was a knock-off.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:27
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