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thrawn527 posted:Well yeah sure, I get that. But this is one big loving clue. Recognizing the dart is one thing. Knowing the planet it comes from is known for making clones has some rather far reaching implications. Well, genre/thematic reasons aside, Dex is basically a retired adventurer who's been across the galaxy and seen some poo poo; particularly in the Outer Rim, where you'd figure there's cultures unknown to civilization in the Core Systems. It's not a totally random choice on Obi-Wan's part to go to him when the Jedi Archives fall short. e: As to the other thing, the "they're cloners" line makes it clear that A) Galactic Civilization in general are not cloners, so; B) Creating people with custom genetics is probably illegal as all hell in the Republic. Presumably this is for similar reasons as in Star Trek and a bunch of other space opera universes. C) Just as with Hutt space and humanoid slavery, the Outer Rim is not subject to Republic law; D) the Kaminoans run a business where those in the know can come buy genetically engineered and custom-grown people for whatever purpose. E) Presumably a lot of those customers are wealthy people from inside and outside the Republic's rule of law. Remember owning sentient beings is considered to be insanely hosed up, and illegal in the Republic. A clone however, opens a grey area--once already created there's presumably no law about employing them; so if Senator Lott Dodd wants secretaries genetically engineered to always tell him he's super smart and his hat looks nice, and those guys were "born" someplace outside the sphere of Republic law, there's no law saying he can't bring them to Coruscant in his retinue. This is presumably the kind of business the Kaminoans were in before they got an order for an entire clone army, and changed to a wholesaler's model. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 20:45
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Yeah, Dexster Jettster is a fat, old Han Solo who has done everything and been everywhere.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:49
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Basebf555 posted:So it implies that Dooku either manipulated Dyas into ordering the army, or he ordered it after Dyas' assassination. I think when you combine the dialogue in the episode with the scenes in AotC, where Obi Wan talks with the Kaminoins and the date of Dyas' death doesn't seem to match up with him ordering the army, the logical conclusion is that it was Dooku masquerading as Dyas. Dooku and Sidious found out about Dyas' plans to order an army and figured it worked perfectly for their plans, so they bankrolled it, let him order it on behalf of the Jedi Council telling the Kaminoans he would return with the money and the clone template, then Dooku had him assassinated, introduces himself as Lord Tyrannus, Dyas' partner, demonstrated detailed knowledge of the project, started handing over the funding, and provided instructions and the man to be cloned from the totally still alive Jedi to the Kaminoans as promised, plus the secret control chips Dyas' wanted kept from the council. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 20:49
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josh04 posted:Yeah, Dexster Jettster is a fat, old Han Solo who has done everything and been everywhere. And then decided to start his own 1950's american diner. Livin the dream.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:51
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Dexter actually becomes Maz later in life.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:16
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WENTZ WAGON NUI posted:Well, genre/thematic reasons aside, Dex is basically a retired adventurer who's been across the galaxy and seen some poo poo; particularly in the Outer Rim, where you'd figure there's cultures unknown to civilization in the Core Systems. It's not a totally random choice on Obi-Wan's part to go to him when the Jedi Archives fall short. Alright, yeah, this works for me.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:20
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Dexster Jettster is a rockabilly scenester. Every Thursday night he goes to a different diner and waddles around to songs like "Come On Little Droid" and "Everybody's Jizzin'."
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Jan 10, 2018 21:20
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NTRabbit posted:Dooku and Sidious found out about Dyas' plans to order an army and figured it worked perfectly for their plans, so they bankrolled it, let him order it on behalf of the Jedi Council telling the Kaminoans he would return with the money and the clone template, then Dooku had him assassinated, introduces himself as Lord Tyrannus, Dyas' partner, demonstrated detailed knowledge of the project, started handing over the funding, and provided instructions and the man to be cloned from the totally still alive Jedi to the Kaminoans as promised, plus the secret control chips Dyas' wanted kept from the council. The part of this that doesn't fit is that the Kaminoans don't seem to indicate to Obi-Wan that they'd ever met with anyone about the project other than Dyas. You'd think when Obi Wan says "I thought Dyas died ten years ago?", the Kaminoans would say something like "We were unaware of that, his partner has been working with us on the project for some years now". I just think, in the absence of anything definitive, that it's a more elegant scenario that Dooku used Dyas' reputation as a way to allay the suspicions of the Jedi, and simply assassinated Dyas to make sure he could never contradict that notion.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:26
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If Dooku showed up and said "Hi, I'm Sifo-Dyas," how would the Kaminoans know any different?
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Jan 10, 2018 22:26
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It's strongly implied that they are not an "asking questions" kind of business outlet.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:31
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FuturePastNow posted:If Dooku showed up and said "Hi, I'm Sifo-Dyas," how would the Kaminoans know any different? I suppose I'm operating under the assumption that the Kaminoans would have met the person placing the order at least once, and so if Dooku was posing as Dyas he'd had to have been doing that from the beginning. Once they meet the real Dyas they know what he looks like and then Dooku can't pose as him.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:06
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Ferrinus posted:If I recall correctly, Palpatine basically put the entire clone army on the Jedi Order’s credit card and the Jedi were too confused and embarrassed to do a chargeback. Half right. The plot is that the Clone Army is a secret weapons project bankrolled by the Republic. The Jedi named Sifo (or, rather, someone impersonating Sifo) merely acted as the liaison between Kamino and the Senate. He’s actually not very important. When the Jedi Council finds out about the Republic’s secret project, Yoda doesn’t ask questions because a) he trusts the Senate and b) he’s afraid of displaying weakness. The Jedi should have known about this, so the Council goes along with the Senate’s plan rather than admit they‘re out of the loop.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:19
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euphronius posted:Well Qui him takes him directly to the Jedi counsel and their "evil alarms" started going off so I don't know. The Jedi counsel, a room full of adult-rear end men, pick on and berate a child for missing his mother. This sets the tone for the rest of the series
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Jan 10, 2018 23:27
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Technically all they sense in him is fear and they're like "lol being afraid is literally morally wrong stupid kiddo"
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Jan 10, 2018 23:29
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Anakin is like a living nuclear bomb they should have just executed him on the spot.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:33
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Finally saw it last night. Felt disappointing, not a terrible movie but nothing that special either. A lot of scenes dragged, they relied a whole lot on close calls, to the point where I grew tired of it. The majority of the comedic inserts felt rather forced and out of place. I avoided this thread before and won't add too much to any nit-picky arguments. I think my overall disappointment lies in that the way it ended didn't really make me feel anything like there was anything I really look forward to seeing in Episode IX. For a middle sequel of a trilogy, to set up essentially a blank slate to start the third, I was underwhelmed. The relationship between Ren and Rey is somewhat intriguing, but I don't think there was enough gravity built up to make me care that much about what happens between them in the coming conflict. Is Kylo himself really enough to carry a whole Space Opera as a final villain? Will the newly rebuilt Resistance forces have anything that differentiates them from the one that just got wiped out? Luke's plot arc ended, but probably could've been a nice hook for the last movie. I hope that at the very least, the major developments of this movie carry weight in the next. The First Order took a massive hit in getting literally splintered by the Resistance Cruiser. Ren's leadership has detractors due to the dubious nature of how he rose to power and also his general lack of qualifications. The New Resistance movement tries to correct the mistakes of the past and maybe also doesn't deal with morally abhorrent arms dealers. Stuff along these lines. Anyway, I'll likely see the last installment regardless, just with much lowered expectations.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:35
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porfiria posted:Anakin is like a living nuclear bomb they should have just executed him on the spot. But this would have shown fear :iamafag:
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Jan 10, 2018 23:43
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Terry Grunthouse posted:Dexter actually becomes Maz later in life. maz is loving trash in comparison
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Jan 11, 2018 00:21
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Basebf555 posted:I suppose I'm operating under the assumption that the Kaminoans would have met the person placing the order at least once, and so if Dooku was posing as Dyas he'd had to have been doing that from the beginning. Once they meet the real Dyas they know what he looks like and then Dooku can't pose as him. I think the Kaminoans actually speak to Dooku and call him Tyrannus in that one TCW episode. Which means at least some were in on the whole chip thing because...reasons.
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Jan 11, 2018 00:35
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Il Federale posted:I think the Kaminoans actually speak to Dooku and call him Tyrannus in that one TCW episode. Which means at least some were in on the whole chip thing because...reasons. The Kaminoans were told that the chips were to be kept secret from the rest of the Jedi council, because they were being put in place as a safeguard against rogue Jedi deciding to carve out their own fiefdom, and the council would object to the necessity because Jedi don't turn bad. They call him Tyrannus because they don't know he's actually Dooku. Basebf555 posted:I just think, in the absence of anything definitive, that it's a more elegant scenario that Dooku used Dyas' reputation as a way to allay the suspicions of the Jedi, and simply assassinated Dyas to make sure he could never contradict that notion. In TCW Dyas definitively made the order, and then through machinations by Senator Palpatine and his allies, Chancellor Valorum sent Dyas on a secret and sensitive mission to off the record negotiate with the Pike crime syndicate, whom Tyrannus had paid to assassinate him. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 03:49
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porfiria posted:Anakin is like a living nuclear bomb they should have just executed him on the spot. I wonder if the films will ever explore the outcome of pursuing that course of action...
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Jan 11, 2018 04:03
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Hodgepodge posted:I wonder if the films will ever explore the outcome of pursuing that course of action... Nothing worse than half measures...
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Jan 11, 2018 04:04
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porfiria posted:Nothing worse than half measures... It would have set a riveting example of what happens if you are caught feeling fear, which no one would do of course.
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Jan 11, 2018 04:08
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NTRabbit posted:The Kaminoans were told that the chips were to be kept secret from the rest of the Jedi council, because they were being put in place as a safeguard against rogue Jedi deciding to carve out their own fiefdom, and the council would object to the necessity because Jedi don't turn bad. Speaking as someone with very little interest in the Clone Wars cartoon show, this particular pit of irony is quite excellent.
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Jan 11, 2018 04:39
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Schwarzwald posted:Speaking as someone with very little interest in the Clone Wars cartoon show, this particular pit of irony is quite excellent. You should reconsider, once it gets its legs the whole show is steadily excellent.
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Jan 11, 2018 05:00
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When it's good, the EU is surprisingly good.
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Jan 11, 2018 05:04
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:You should reconsider, once it gets its legs the whole show is steadily excellent. It isn't that I have anything against it, but there are only so many hours in a day and as boundless as is my enthusiasm for Star Wars I don't know that I want to commit to a 121 episode cartoon show.
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Jan 11, 2018 05:34
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Honestly? just watch season 6 and the last arc of season 5. The rest is above-average for the star wars EU but that's a classic case of damning with faint praise, while season 6 is a few unrelated multi-episode arcs which are all very well-constructed and have interesting ideas the movies gloss over because they're not related to the central skywalker saga also jar jar binks fucks
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Jan 11, 2018 06:13
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Were kamino also weapons and ship manufacturers or what was the deal with that.
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Jan 11, 2018 06:36
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NTRabbit posted:Dooku and Sidious found out about Dyas' plans to order an army and figured it worked perfectly for their plans, so they bankrolled it, let him order it on behalf of the Jedi Council telling the Kaminoans he would return with the money and the clone template, then Dooku had him assassinated, introduces himself as Lord Tyrannus, Dyas' partner, demonstrated detailed knowledge of the project, started handing over the funding, and provided instructions and the man to be cloned from the totally still alive Jedi to the Kaminoans as promised, plus the secret control chips Dyas' wanted kept from the council. This is what I came here to post. Also: if you wear a hood in Star Wars, it perfectly conceals your identity. I like the symmetry of both Palpatine and Dooku just putting on a hood in order to go conspire with the arms dealers who supply the enemies of the faction they publicly lead.
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Jan 11, 2018 06:43
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Tender Bender posted:Were kamino also weapons and ship manufacturers or what was the deal with that. They made all the personal armour, and bought all the personal weapons under contract, but all the early heavy equipment and ships were off the shelf designs from other defence contractors all too happy to quickly sell their existing inventory to the Republic, and then mass produce more. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 07:34
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ungulateman posted:Honestly? just watch season 6 and the last arc of season 5. The rest is above-average for the star wars EU but that's a classic case of damning with faint praise, while season 6 is a few unrelated multi-episode arcs which are all very well-constructed and have interesting ideas the movies gloss over because they're not related to the central skywalker saga Also watch the Umbara episodes, whatever season those are in.
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Jan 11, 2018 07:46
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I hope END SPOILERS Kylo Ren and Hux gently caress already. JFC.
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Jan 11, 2018 07:53
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Bongo Bill posted:This is what I came here to post. They should put a hood on the next death star so no one can figure out that's what it is.
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Jan 11, 2018 13:41
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RBA Starblade posted:They should put a hood on the next death star so no one can figure out that's what it is. Darth Stardith
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Jan 11, 2018 14:29
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Al Borland Corp. posted:It's less I think those actions make him irredeemable and more I think those actions make him a really stupid and gullible lackey. I think he has been tricked, because "Padme will die unless you kill all the Jedi, yes even the babies, to end the war" sounds really far fetched. Maybe if he more specifically sensed she would be killed by a Jedi rather than the more generic war. That actually came true He already thinks cheating death with the Force is possible. This is a conclusion he's arrived at independently: Attack of the Clones posted:ANAKIN: I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying! It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back! Atttack of the Clones posted:ANAKIN: I wasn't strong enough to save you, Mom. I wasn't strong enough, but I promise I won't fail again. He knows that the Force can create life from nothing; he's living proof of that. He also knows that (as a direct consequence of that, incidentally) he's destined to become the most powerful Jedi of all time. Put two and two together, in his mind, that means he can learn to stop people from dying with the Force. The only problem is that Obi-Wan, and the Council, are holding him back from achieving that power, because they're jealous of his power, and afraid of it. These are all things he's come to believe by his own reasoning. Flash forward three years. He's having these visions of his wife dying, just like he saw his mom dying before it happened. He remembers the promise he made to his mother, to not let it happen again, to find a way to stop it next time. All these ideas and feelings come rushing back to him all of a sudden. And then, here comes Palpatine. Palpatine, possibly the greatest authority figure in his life, confirms everything Anakin has been thinking. He tells Anakin it is possible, that it's been done before. He tells him that the Jedi are selfish, secretive, and deceptive, obsessed with losing their own power and therefore afraid of everyone else's; all the Jedi's actions in this movie seem to confirm this to Anakin as well. He knows there are things the Jedi aren't telling him; well, this is true, too. Everything seems to be true. This is the mindset Anakin's going into this with. He already thinks all of this is true because of simple logic. Then Palpatine basically tells him he's witnessed it firsthand from his Sith Master (Anakin would of course realize the true implications of his story after discovering he's the Sith Lord). And then everything that happens afterwards seems to reinforce the first two sources of his belief. The only hitch is that after Anakin pledges himself to the Sith, Palpatine cops to never learning exactly how to do it from his master. Well, Palpatine was fudging the truth a bit obviously, but that doesn't change everything else that's led Anakin to believe that it's possible, and that the only way to do it is to become more powerful. Well, the only way to become more powerful very quickly is the dark side. And in order to tap into the dark side, you obviously have to tap into some very dark emotions and do some very dark things. That's how it works, no one disagrees with that. Palpatine may have been lying about knowing how to do it, but he's still clearly the baddest dark side guy around, and so he's still Anakin's best and only hope. And besides, he can't go back now even if he wanted to. The only place Anakin's gone wrong in his thinking is in placing his faith in the dark side. But that's just a moral failing. There's nothing super deficient about his logic. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 15:09
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Zoran posted:Darth Stardith Have you ever heard the story of Darth Stardeux the Brief?
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Jan 11, 2018 15:14
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Ferrinus posted:That the Jedi knights are so powerfully integrated into the liberal order that they can barely even see slavery right in front of their own noses makes the movie MORE Marxist, not less. It’s a cogent and consistent critique. Jedi who just snap and foment a droid rebellion or fix all the Republic’s injusices by slaying Palpatine would be far less historically materialist, and so far less believable. The Jedi aren't the ones who can't see slavery in front of their noses. The only person who's surprised by it is the politically naive Padme. All Qui-Gon--much maligned for it--does is soberly note that he didn't actually come there to free slaves (before doing it anyway). The Jedi just do the best they can with what they've got. They can't just go on a mass crusade across the galaxy and start toppling governments and setting up new ones. It's not within their power to do that. The Jedi are keepers of the peace. They're not violent revolutionaries. They answer to the will of the people. The people aren't rising up en masse . If they did start to do that, the Jedi would likely support them while doing their best not to cross the philosophical line separating the defense of justice from a crusading attack. That's their role. They're priests and teachers and defenders of the innocent. They're not generals or soldiers or revolutionaries. It's perfectly fine for actual generals and soldiers and revolutionaries to do what they need to do. But that's not the Jedi's role. It's important to have a mediating force like the Jedi in a society. It's important to have people in a society with different philosophies and different roles. For instance, I don't resent philosophical pacifists for being counter-revolutionary, like you probably do. Of course, it's true that the Hutts are inflicting a form of violence on the slaves of Tatooine by keeping them enslaved, and it's certainly the will of the slaves to be free. It would be perfectly within the scope of the Jedi's responsibilities to end that. The problem there is that they can't. This is what people can't understand because they think of the Jedi as omnipotent superheroes. You need an army to take a planet, and then you need to occupy the planet, and then you need to set up a government, and then you need to fairly prosecute, judge, and enforce sentencing on the oppressors, and then you need to defend that planet from future encroachment. And you need to do all those things an untold number of times over and over and over again on every planet that exists outside the influence of the Republic. The Jedi aren't equipped to do any of those things, let alone all of them. They're a religious order of warriors pledged to assist the democratic galactic government in containing small conflicts and resolving diplomatic disputes. There are only about twenty thousand of them in a whole galaxy, and despite their amazing powers, they're still just people. So now you probably move to the argument that the Jedi are propping up a corrupt neoliberal order, which is an argument that is at least somewhat grounded in reality compared to the former one. Except it's not really true, because again, they're not nearly as powerful or influential as you're making them out to be. They're public servants, sort of like the diplomats who work at the United Nations. They also just so happen to be infused with a little samurai swashbuckler element, because it's a fantasy. I personally don't think there's anything inherently evil or despicable about working as a diplomat for a liberal democracy. But there's also just an unresolvable ideological difference between you and the movie. The movies don't share your ideology, and neither do I, because it's a bad ideology (though I do respect Marx and his ideas and subscribe to many of them, I reject the violent aspects of his philosophy). I guess the difference between me and you, and a lot of other people of your ilk in this thread, is that you probably actually think it would be a good thing for the United States, right now or in the near future, to erupt into a violent revolution where people are killing each other. I don't want that. Most people don't want that, and it's not necessarily because they're blinded by ideology, though I know you and many other people will never be able to see that, because of your own ideological blind spots. I want things to get better, but I don't want it to happen that way. Maybe it will have to happen that way eventually, but I'd rather try other solutions first, because I don't have the same Pollyanna's view when it comes to the risk/benefit calculus of the outcome of a violent revolution. Call me names if you want, call me a privileged defender of the neoliberal order or an ignorant supporter of imperialism or of third world slavery. It won't really bother me, because if you do that, you're ridiculous. Apologies if I have imparted views to you that you don't hold, but I'm just speaking to the general gist of the arguments coming from this direction. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 16:19
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What movie did Qui Gon free the slaves in.
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Jan 11, 2018 16:35
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literally every person we see in the movies is totally cool with droid slavery. they barely bat an eye at organic slavery. the jedi aren't special in that regard
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Jan 11, 2018 16:39
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