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StarMinstrel posted:make sure to come back and tell us what you think about the whole show once you're done with it. I really genuinely enjoyed the ride, but people calling it some kind of masterpiece are using a rubric I guess I don’t have. Full disclosure, my anime knowledge is skewed towards the western stuff (TriGun, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star are all close personal favorites of mine, for the ways that they subvert as well as the things they stay true to) so this felt way more like the Evengelion/Giant Robo side of things where I normally feel like I’m missing out on something due to localization. I think a shittier studio would have dragged this out for two or three seasons and I think a better studio could have stretched it out to 13-15 episodes. I felt like everything after episode 3 happens at this insane breakneck pace and it left me feeling a little blue-balled when these cool demons show up and then get owned in seconds. Like the water demon or the airport fight with his parents, that seemed over before it began. I didn’t understand the concept of a Superhigh-schooler or what he was doing, and the Miki-Miko plotline goes like absolutely nowhere before it’s overshadowed by the bigger plot, which I can’t help but feeling was the central theme of the show: “Your life is not the biggest thing going on in the world around you.” The scene with Miki & Taro’s dad and the gun was probably the single most emotionally devastating performance I’ve seen in an anime, I couldn’t believe the impact it had on me, and I felt like as 8-9 pushed on I saw the writing on the wall. Maybe there’s something I’m missing from the manga though because ”and then everybody died” isn’t a good ending and basically never will be a good ending no matter what you think you are doing differently. It’s reminiscent of the Book of Job, just a uniquely depressing series of events that feigns teaching a lesson and maybe forgets halfway through. All in all I’d give it a solid 7/10. The soundtrack, the rappers, the animation were top notch. This show is very confusing, it goes from angry to horny to sad lightning quick, and I could understand why that would turn a lot of people off. I can’t imagine who I’d recommend this too even though I personally enjoyed it. I wish more anime embraced titties with such a straight face. I also really enjoyed reading the interview with the Eva guy and the writer of the manga, I think, where he talks about how his main inspiration for Devilman is Godzilla. I also would love to see the Evengelion guys face when he saw the Shinji-Hand scene. I’m sure that was a riot. What other shows has this animation studio done and are any of them this sexy and violent? Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 00:21
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TheComicFiend posted:Me too. While watching I was hoping for some kind of bullshit, probably unsatisfying "BUT THEN EVERYONE WAS OK SOMEHOW!" But I had to make do with Satan being the big dumb crybaby at the end. I mean it’s kind of a split, I’d be unsurprised if it had happened too. Original Devilman didn’t have that but Kaiba did so it’s within Yuasa’s remit.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:22
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Bust Rodd posted:I really genuinely enjoyed the ride, but people calling it some kind of masterpiece are using a rubric I guess I don’t have. i'm an atheist and don't even agree with the moral of the Book of Job but i'm still laughing my rear end off at these two statements together
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Jan 12, 2018 00:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i'm an atheist and don't even agree with the moral of the Book of Job but i'm still laughing my rear end off at these two statements together If there’s some point I’m missing here I’d love to get filled in.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:29
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i think darth walrus put it best earlier that the show is about how love is simultaneously what makes us beautiful and weak, and that's kinda the reason behind the huge downer ending. miki going online to defend akira and encourage other devilmen to speak out was beautiful, but also led directly to her and their deaths. ryo doesn't realize he has any love until after akira is already dead, so he wins and obliterates humanity before realizing his love for akira, which leads to his immense anguish after the fact.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:29
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I also really appreciated the ‘subtlety’ of Ryo being extremely logic-oriented/science-based. Absolutely nothing about him spoke to faith or belief, which made his arch in episode 10 hit hard.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:34
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Bust Rodd posted:If there’s some point I’m missing here I’d love to get filled in. okay so there are two points to the Book of Job one is that the reasons for suffering and the universe being the way it is are ultimately beyond our comprehension because we simply don't have the perspective to get the big picture the other is that Job persists in criticizing God even while maintaining his faith; his idiot friends insist that bad things only happen to those who deserve them and that Job must have hosed up somehow to earn God's wrath, but God comes down and explicitly says they're wrong, that Job was correct in saying that pain and suffering are inflicted even on the innocent, and that he committed no blasphemy by complaining about this, but nonetheless he's just a mortal dude and see point #1 it's a fantastic piece of literature and an important cultural touchstone for Jews and Christians with respect to reconciling faith in God with the reality of injustice and suffering (also, notably, Job lives a long, healthy, and happy life by the end) Devilman Crybaby deals with similar themes except that instead of attempting to apologize for God's behavior, it's more about apologizing for mankind's; we're basically trapped in a situation where cruelty and power and hunger is the easy way out, where it's only natural to live like a beast, but some people choose not to anyways -- basically prompting the question "if the scale we were measured on was already this biased towards selfishness and evil, what does it say about human nature that any of us managed to be good at all?" to make that point effectively it kind of has to end with "and then everyone dies" -- because the idea is that doing the right thing even if it does make you weak, even if it kills you, is noble and beautiful and gently caress God and nature for creating such an insidious acid test for us in the first place
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Jan 12, 2018 00:45
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drat that's some good meta, Tuxedo Catfish https://twitter.com/unhealthydoc/status/951349600451022849
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Jan 12, 2018 00:49
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so is this most people's first exposure to devilman? I'm just kind of surprised since all of it has been on youtube for years free to watch and the manga is easily readable for free as well.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:54
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:so is this most people's first exposure to devilman? I'm just kind of surprised since all of it has been on youtube for years free to watch and the manga is easily readable for free as well. Yup. It's like 40 years old, who's gonna read a manga that old? And the anime's, uh, all over the place so again: who's gonna watch it?
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Jan 12, 2018 00:56
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my only exposure to Go Nagai before this was Dororon Enma-Kun which, uh, honestly didn't leave a great impression
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Jan 12, 2018 00:57
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That’s weird I taught bible school for 6 years and never reconciled that “maintaining your faith” was the morally righteous way to live, but I was also teaching teens so the conversations never really got that in depth. We talked lot about your first point, bad things happen to good people and it’s not a punishment because the world doesn’t work in that binary way. The ending there is also bullshit because “my wife, friends and children all died but then I got new ones so it’s ok!” is a non-reward, considering that in general God doesn’t punish innocent people in the book of Job he is very deliberately setting out to ruin Job’s life over nothing, so it’s simply God solving a problem of his own creation. I guess I disagree with your position on the ending. I’m not demanding everything adhere to “The Hero with 1,000 Faces” but Akira is basically the exact same person through all 10 episodes, then is punished and murdered, and Ryo still wins and gets everything they set out to achieve, but because everything was totally stacked in his favor from the beginning it doesn’t require him to grow or change. I also don’t read “He misses Akira” as growth or change because he’s clearly always cared about him and just had this deluded fantasy that they’d end up happily ever after. I feel like there were plenty of places the ending could have gone without hitting rock bottom and rolling credits, but I also understand that a key divergence in Eastern vs Western culture is that Westerners think a sad ending is a bittersweet, silver lining kind of thing, and it’s way more eastern and specifically more Japanese to just go “everything is totally hosed, Good-Bye” because they don’t need their hands held all the time, they get washed away and rained on and melted by volcanoes like every 40 years, they understand that life is uncaring. Still that does make a lot of sense, I like that interpretation. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 01:04
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Bust Rodd posted:I didn’t understand the concept of a Superhigh-schooler or what he was doing, and the Miki-Miko plotline goes like absolutely nowhere before it’s overshadowed by the bigger plot, which I can’t help but feeling was the central theme of the show: “Your life is not the biggest thing going on in the world around you.” i think these might be chalked up to bad translation along with the fact that raps didn't rhyme...and apparently weren't even dubbed.... Maybe I just have too high standards
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Jan 12, 2018 01:09
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Bust Rodd posted:I guess I disagree with your position on the ending. I’m not demanding everything adhere to “The Hero with 1,000 Faces” but Akira is basically the exact same person through all 10 episodes, then is punished and [spoilers]murdered[/spoilers], and Ryo still wins and gets everything they set out to achieve, but because everything was totally stacked in his favor from the beginning it doesn’t require him to grow or change. I also don’t read “He misses Akira” as growth or change because he’s clearly always cared about him and just had this deluded fantasy that they’d end up happily ever after. I actually agree with you with respect to Ryo not really experiencing much in the way of real growth. From what I understand Crybaby's version of the ending downplays Ryo / Satan's realization of what he's done and what it means compared to the manga, and expands on the last moments of a bunch of the human characters at the same time. I think Yuasa wanted to subtly shift the emphasis on what makes him a tragic character from "he realizes too late that he was wrong" to "his crippled emotional perspective leaves him miserable without even fully grasping why."
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Jan 12, 2018 01:10
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:my only exposure to Go Nagai before this was Dororon Enma-Kun which, uh, honestly didn't leave a great impression enma actually has a lot of wildly different versions. the ecchi version you probably saw, a 70s anime version and a recentish ova that's quite grim. i never managed to finish the ova myself as its a series of mini movies. this isn't even counting the dozen different manga StrixNebulosa posted:Yup. It's like 40 years old, who's gonna read a manga that old? And the anime's, uh, all over the place so again: who's gonna watch it? people without a strange aversion for anything not recent
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Jan 12, 2018 01:11
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The happiness I get from this makes up for the tragedy in the show.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:12
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The animation style in the old Devilman is the same kind used by Lupin III and there something about the rounded noses and helmet-hair that is so visually uninviting I would never watch anything drawn that way of my own accord. I prefer the more crisp angular character models of Devilman-Crybaby (I could watch a whole show of just the kids running track it was beautiful) or something like Outlaw Star where everyone’s exaggerated physiques match up to their personalities, so their weird shapes extend their characters. I don’t get that impression from Lupin or Devilman (but ive never watched them so I could be wrong).
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Jan 12, 2018 01:15
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You don't get exaggerated characters from...Lupin and Devilman?
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Jan 12, 2018 01:20
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Davincie posted:enma actually has a lot of wildly different versions. the ecchi version you probably saw, a 70s anime version and a recentish ova that's quite grim. i never managed to finish the ova myself as its a series of mini movies. this isn't even counting the dozen different manga Let's be frank here Go Nagai's art is... it has a certain wild creativity and energy, which is why he is a creative icon, but depending on your leanings... It's not particularly pleasant to look at...? Even compared to other ye olde creators like Tezuka, Ishinomori, and Mizuki. The comparison to Lupin is a good one I think, because man, I don't like the art in those Monkey Punch comics atttt allllll
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Jan 12, 2018 01:22
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:so is this most people's first exposure to devilman? I'm just kind of surprised since all of it has been on youtube for years free to watch and the manga is easily readable for free as well. You have to go out of your way to watch/read the original especially since there currently aren't legal methods (at least until the manga gets reprinted later this year), as opposed to a new show that's actively being promoted by the most popular streaming service in the world. Not to mention that Yuasa helming it is a factor for getting new viewers that absolutely shouldn't be overlooked. StrixNebulosa posted:Yup. It's like 40 years old, who's gonna read a manga that old? And the anime's, uh, all over the place so again: who's gonna watch it? Anyone with this attitude is my enemy.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:22
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My first encounter with Go Nagai was a random DVD of some Cutie Honey iteration and then all of Cutie Honey: The LIVE.ninjewtsu posted:i think darth walrus put it best earlier that the show is about how love is simultaneously what makes us beautiful and weak, and that's kinda the reason behind the huge downer ending. miki going online to defend akira and encourage other devilmen to speak out was beautiful, but also led directly to her and their deaths. ryo doesn't realize he has any love until after akira is already dead, so he wins and obliterates humanity before realizing his love for akira, which leads to his immense anguish after the fact. Thank you for this.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:23
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Bust Rodd posted:The animation style in the old Devilman is the same kind used by Lupin III and there something about the rounded noses and helmet-hair that is so visually uninviting I would never watch anything drawn that way of my own accord. I prefer the more crisp angular character models of Devilman-Crybaby (I could watch a whole show of just the kids running track it was beautiful) or something like Outlaw Star where everyone’s exaggerated physiques match up to their personalities, so their weird shapes extend their characters. I don’t get that impression from Lupin or Devilman (but ive never watched them so I could be wrong). Maybe you should actually watch a bit of Lupin and give it a chance before saying that! As a big Lupin fan I can say that, the old Lupin shows might be limited in their animation but they're real smart about how they work around their limitations in a way that a lot of 70s anime wasn't able to do. There's a ton of personality to it.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:27
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I thought they were all old, is there new Lupin that isn’t as desaturated and washed out looking? Their use of color was another big turn-off but since were all talking about modern adaptations of 40 year old manga I’d be happy to give it a chance. I like heists and capers, I just hate the way every commercial makes it look.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:29
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At least watch The Castle of Cagliostro, it's by Miyazaki so you won't be let down.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:30
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Bust Rodd posted:I thought they were all old, is there new Lupin that isn’t as desaturated and washed out looking? Their use of color was another big turn-off but since were all talking about modern adaptations of 40 year old manga I’d be happy to give it a chance. I like heists and capers, I just hate the way every commercial makes it look. Naw there's a ton of Lupin both old and new (and a lot of it is on Crunchyroll!), but I'd heavily disagree with that assessment. Especially once you get around to the 80s. Also there's a lot of old anime that used to look washed out due to poor dvd quality but managed to improve after a better transfer, especially old stuff that gets put out on blu-ray. Anyways for modern Lupin just hit up Lupin Part IV, it's all on Crunchyroll and despite being called Part IV you don't need to know a thing.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:38
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I think Part V is coming soon.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:45
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im def gonna try and check out the older OVA and probably the manga too, a more modern times adaption was really what I needed, I honestly just cant stop thinking about Devilman even tho I finished it days ago. Flawed media rules. also i've seen small amounts of lupin here and there but this is the thing i saw that made me say Okay, I Should Watch Lupin and it's so dumb that this is what it did it  (from The Blood Spray of Goemon Ishikawa movie)
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Jan 12, 2018 01:48
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Expect My Mom posted:im def gonna try and check out the older OVA and probably the manga too, a more modern times adaption was really what I needed, I honestly just cant stop thinking about Devilman even tho I finished it days ago. Flawed media rules. If you want something Lupin III and just as sexy and weird* as Devilman, try Lupin the Third: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh7zO8nSnFg *may not be as weird as Devilman
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Jan 12, 2018 01:52
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it's weirder than Devilman (which is also to say i wholeheartedly approve)
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Jan 12, 2018 01:53
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Davincie posted:people without a strange aversion for anything not recent I mean it's not like I specifically avoided Devilman but I guess people just assume everyone knows about it because it's old? I didn't even know it was an adaptation of anything when it popped up on Netflix. I started getting vague memories of someone once mentioning it once Crybaby started referencing an old show but in those ignorant moments I was just assuming it was only another old monster of the week show (and that that was the whole of the property, since I think the 39 episode show is actually supposed to be kinda that?). Waiting for that rerelease of the old manga, now.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:57
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Ever since The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Lupin as a franchise has been having its best decade since the 80s. That and nearly everything made afterwards are all very much worth checking out.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:58
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i knew devilman existed as "an old very influential manga with an OVA that had a pretty funny dub" before crybaby it was one of thsoe things where i'd have liked to check it out, but never really felt any need to over other things i could spend my time on. the fact that no one talked about it pretty much ever until crybaby was probably a big factor in that.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:01
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Oh, another note about Devilman Crybaby being accessible: it's short, self-contained, and easily pointed to as "this is where you can start with Devilman" as opposed to the tangled mess that is trying to figure out which OVAs or animes to watch. Also it's on Netflix so there's no confusion about how to stream it, either. Just put it on and go! What's extra neat is that it's kind of like when Netflix dropped that Castlevania anime - my entire twitter feed loves it, it's dark and messy and good, and unlike Castlevania there's a bunch of stuff to get into that isn't video games. So instead of everyone loving it and moving on, my feed is now morphing into a back and forth of "should I read Devilman Lady? / NO" as well as the endless flood of memes and fanart. Anyways, it led me to actually read the manga and I'm now reading Mazinger Z and y'know what? Go Nagai, for all of his weird stylistic choices (he draws humans in the same cartoony style Tezuka and Ishinomori do) - he's really good at what he does. (like the other two mangakas I just mentioned) and I'm finding myself really enjoying his work - not out of curiosity, but out of a genuine enjoyment for some good manga.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:05
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I knew that a boy turned into a devil and that Last Arc Spoilers Ryo was Satan which is so obvious in context because he's a blond haired blue eyed pretty boy tempting Akira into so much poo poo and also at some point, I forget when, the Netflix credits start putting サタン(Satan) after his voice actor credit and yeah I've had the Woman Called Fujiko Mine reccomended so constantly, I'll add it to my list in the 2018 Movie Challenge for sure
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Jan 12, 2018 02:06
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Expect My Mom posted:I knew that a boy turned into a devil and that Last Arc Spoilers Ryo was Satan which is so obvious in context because he's a blond haired blue eyed pretty boy tempting Akira into so much poo poo and also at some point, I forget win, the Netflix credits start putting サタン(Satan) after his voice actor credit I was waiting to find out how he's turned into a demon, so, uh, the reveal that he was the actual Satan was a shock to me, haha.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:08
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I do wanna say I really do love End Of Devilman Spoilers Ryo's Satan form. Like it's obviously doing the Miltonian Paradise Lost Lucifer thing of being a moody bishonen, but the genderfludity of it, with longer hair to developed breasts and visible penis and testicles, I rarely see that brought up in Angel designs, much less the Devil themself, I love it.
Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 02:20
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Bust Rodd posted:That’s weird I taught bible school for 6 years and never reconciled that “maintaining your faith” was the morally righteous way to live, but I was also teaching teens so the conversations never really got that in depth. We talked lot about your first point, bad things happen to good people and it’s not a punishment because the world doesn’t work in that binary way. The ending there is also bullshit because “my wife, friends and children all died but then I got new ones so it’s ok!” is a non-reward, considering that in general God doesn’t punish innocent people in the book of Job he is very deliberately setting out to ruin Job’s life over nothing, so it’s simply God solving a problem of his own creation. Ryo didn’t win. Akira’s death broke him, and God defeated him again. You see the reset process happening post-credits - it looks just like Satan’s first defeat at the very beginning of the show. The old Devilman show is a reference to a concept that first cropped up in Devilman Lady - every time God defeats Satan, he resets the world and Akira and Ryo’s adventures become fiction. It’s an ominous little warning - all this has happened before, all this will happen again - which is delivered upon with the reset at the end, as the old, ruined Earth becomes another moon.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:23
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Bust Rodd posted:I thought they were all old, is there new Lupin that isn’t as desaturated and washed out looking? Their use of color was another big turn-off but since were all talking about modern adaptations of 40 year old manga I’d be happy to give it a chance. I like heists and capers, I just hate the way every commercial makes it look. The recent Blue Jacket TV series (Season 4) is a good intro to the franchise. Lupin is very episodic, so don’t worry too much about continuity between shows/movies.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:25
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Darth Walrus posted:The old Devilman show is a reference to a concept that first cropped up in Devilman Lady - every time God defeats Satan, he resets the world and Akira and Ryo’s adventures become fiction. It’s an ominous little warning - all this has happened before, all this will happen again - which is delivered upon with the reset at the end, as the old, ruined Earth becomes another moon. I assume a reset would not happen if Akira won. Also I know that Psycho Jenny knows of the loops. (And can ditch said loops at any moment.) Speaking of Psycho Jenny I think Crybaby is probably the best Psycho Jenny design. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 02:28
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Psychic Jennifer
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