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I think that Palpatine is magically concealing how strongly the Force is with him and that the Jedi Order's general unwillingness to confront the contradiction between their dogma and their place in the galaxy is preventing them from understanding the poo poo that is about to go down.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:13
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Zoran posted:The droids are beings that by all appearances have all the emotional and mental life of regular organic beings, and yet they are bought and sold. This is treated as just a fact of life by essentially everyone. But why is it so horrifying to you that even the otherwise heroic characters take this for granted? To take a real life analogue, plenty of heroes in the women's suffrage movement had awful views on race. I don’t think we’d say that those people are all monsters because of it—they struggled against a great injustice and should be admired for that. The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. If we do develop robots on the mental level of Star Wars droids within the next 40 years or so, it will be very tough for people who have been around for the evolution of computers from extremely basic machines to semi-sentient beings to actually accept that those semi-sentient beings have crossed a threshold where they should enjoy personhood, and not be treated like every other machine that has come before them. Humans can make choices. Droids cannot make choices that contradict their software. They cannot vote or have a voice in society, because there's no way to know if it's their opinion, or what they've been programmed to feel or experience.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:24
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R2-D2 has no moral code whatsoever and will sensually gently caress I/O ports on spaceships and Death Stars and murder other droids with oil and fire all willy nilly. He also cusses up a storm and electricutes people.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:26
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R2 is the unsung hero of Star Wars
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Jan 12, 2018 05:29
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Yaws posted:R2 is the unsung hero of Star Wars And as we saw in TLJ, he preys on people's emotions in an attempt to cajole them into action. R2 is ruthless.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:32
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Dirk the Average posted:Humans can make choices. Droids cannot make choices that contradict their software.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:40
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Dirk the Average posted:The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. If we do develop robots on the mental level of Star Wars droids within the next 40 years or so, it will be very tough for people who have been around for the evolution of computers from extremely basic machines to semi-sentient beings to actually accept that those semi-sentient beings have crossed a threshold where they should enjoy personhood, and not be treated like every other machine that has come before them. Droids are unlike the robots that are likely to exist in many important ways. For instance, droids can feel both physical and psychological pain.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:49
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I'm disappointed that we did not get more BB-9E action in TLJ. Sure, he hosed the rebels' plans almost all by his little self, but we didn't get to see him much. The idea of an "evil" droid intrigues me.Yaws posted:Because the sentience and general treatment of droids in Star Wars is glossed over for a reason. It's not what Star Wars is about. 
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Jan 12, 2018 05:54
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You got to wonder who was the first person and/or droid to build a droid with the capability to perceive physical damage as pain.
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Jan 12, 2018 06:07
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Yaws posted:Because the sentience and general treatment of droids in Star Wars is glossed over for a reason. It's not what Star Wars is about. You could certainly make the argument that Lucas made a mistake here. There's a clear parallel in ANH between the Jawas selling those droids and Americas history of chattel slavery and perhaps introducing something like that with no clear resolution for the droids was mishandled. The narratives are not about droids and their relationship with other beings, no. But their enslavement is part of the fabric of the setting. It’s not just something brought up in the first act of ANH and then forgotten—it's touched upon very frequently, in fact. Artoo is so often overlooked (and therefore able to swoop in and save the day) precisely because of this prejudice. We see that Jabba is so depraved that he has his slaves torturing other slaves. The droid army is visually and thematically juxtaposed with the clone army to say that the war has turned these human clones into machines, complete with remote override codes—but conversely, the comparison also suggests that the droids are human underneath, just as the clones are. Anakin consistently empathizes with droids and treats them as friends and equals, whereas his mentor Obi-Wan is a tremendous racist—a clue that even teenage Anakin is more than just an ungrateful poo poo and that the Jedi have some terrible prejudices. Anakin's influence actually improves Obi-Wan's attitude.
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Jan 12, 2018 06:11
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Martman posted:Humans cannot make choices that contradict our software. Please do not devolve the star wars movie thread into a navel-gazing jerk session about the existence of free will
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Jan 12, 2018 08:06
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Dirk the Average posted:The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. If we do develop robots on the mental level of Star Wars droids within the next 40 years or so, it will be very tough for people who have been around for the evolution of computers from extremely basic machines to semi-sentient beings to actually accept that those semi-sentient beings have crossed a threshold where they should enjoy personhood, and not be treated like every other machine that has come before them. Well some people today grew up with pet tamogachis are already marrying animes...no accepting droid personhood won't be a stretch for many people. Droid suffrage? Yeah, well it's not like we have democracy for the average joe anyway.
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Jan 12, 2018 09:53
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Ammanas posted:Please do not devolve the star wars movie thread into a navel-gazing jerk session about the existence of free will In the star wars prequels and other star wars movies, the only choice they have is the light side or the dark side.  So if there any free will, it is severely limited. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 11:46
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Shrimp or Shrimps posted:You got to wonder who was the first person and/or droid to build a droid with the capability to perceive physical damage as pain. i would assume they have always been like this. they aren't robots
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Jan 12, 2018 12:00
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I could bite off my own finger as easily as I could bite into a carrot but my programming won't let me.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:28
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if droids are completely beholden to their programming, why do they need restraining bolts? its the same reason anakin has a bomb in his head. artoo tricks luke into removing his and runs off, and luke has a device that inflicts pain on threepio to get him to come out of hiding. why would that be necessary if droids didn't have free will that needs to be suppressed?
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Jan 12, 2018 14:31
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Dirk the Average posted:The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. If we do develop robots on the mental level of Star Wars droids within the next 40 years or so, it will be very tough for people who have been around for the evolution of computers from extremely basic machines to semi-sentient beings to actually accept that those semi-sentient beings have crossed a threshold where they should enjoy personhood, and not be treated like every other machine that has come before them. "It's against my programming to impersonate a deity." *proceeds to impersonate a deity because Luke asks him again* Shrimp or Shrimps posted:You got to wonder who was the first person and/or droid to build a droid with the capability to perceive physical damage as pain. 
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Jan 12, 2018 14:50
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"I can't see group X as equal to my group because of some poo poo that isn't even true" -Every racist ever
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Jan 12, 2018 15:13
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Zoran posted:Anakin consistently empathizes with droids and treats them as friends and equals, whereas his mentor Obi-Wan is a tremendous racist—a clue that even teenage Anakin is more than just an ungrateful poo poo and that the Jedi have some terrible prejudices. Shout-outs to that one episode of Clone Wars where a very distraught Anakin has lost R2D2, his friend for decades, and Obi-Wan comforts him by saying "who cares just get a new one lol"
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Jan 12, 2018 16:23
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Bleck posted:Shout-outs to that one episode of Clone Wars where a very distraught Anakin has lost R2D2, his friend for decades, and Obi-Wan comforts him by saying "who cares just get a new one lol" Unfortunately a lot of this does come down to whether you want to accept the Clone Wars into the discussion. Because that show sent the message about the droid issue extremely loudly and clearly in multiple episodes every season.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:29
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Basebf555 posted:Unfortunately a lot of this does come down to whether you want to accept the Clone Wars into the discussion. Because that show sent the message about the droid issue extremely loudly and clearly in multiple episodes every season. clone wars is exceptionally good, and probably the only thing outside the movies that i would consider important
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Jan 12, 2018 16:32
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Basebf555 posted:"I can't see group X as equal to my group because of some poo poo that isn't even true" People aren't manufactured and programmed. There is a large and distinct difference between a person and a robot, even a sentient one.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:35
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Dirk the Average posted:People aren't manufactured and programmed. There is a large and distinct difference between a person and a robot, even a sentient one. what is gestation but manufacturing and education and socialization but programming? attack of the clones contrasts the clone labs with the droid foundry for a reason. from a certain point of view they are the same
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Jan 12, 2018 16:37
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Dirk the Average posted:People aren't manufactured and programmed. There is a large and distinct difference between a person and a robot, even a sentient one. They are in Star Wars. There is a whole movie about it.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:37
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Dirk the Average posted:People aren't manufactured and programmed. There is a large and distinct difference between a person and a robot, even a sentient one. There's a difference sure. All groups have differences from other groups. The key question is whether or not you are someone that will use those differences to justify slavery and the denial of other basic rights. In the case of Star Wars though, which is what my post was related to, it is not true that the droids are "slaves to their programming". That's proven incorrect again and again.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:41
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Ammanas posted:Please do not devolve the star wars movie thread into a navel-gazing jerk session about the existence of free will But yeah I guess despite the huge focus on the droid man and the big question of whether he is still free to choose goodness, I guess these movies aren't about droids or free will or anything masturbatory like that.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:51
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You gotta agree that Darth Vader's grandson progressed faster through the dark sith management program alot quicker than he himself did. It took Darth Vader 6(if you count the prequels with him) to do what took Kylo Ren 2 movies!
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Jan 12, 2018 17:49
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Tenzarin posted:You gotta agree that Darth Vader's grandson progressed faster through the dark sith management program alot quicker than he himself did. It took Darth Vader 6(if you count the prequels with him) to do what took Kylo Ren 2 movies! And he didn't even need to lose a limb!
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Jan 12, 2018 17:50
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Tenzarin posted:You gotta agree that Darth Vader's grandson progressed faster through the dark sith management program alot quicker than he himself did. It took Darth Vader 6(if you count the prequels with him) to do what took Kylo Ren 2 movies! its like a millenial power fantasy. instead of being stuck in entry-level positions for a decade you have actual upward mobility and before you know it you're running the company!
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Jan 12, 2018 17:51
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RBA Starblade posted:And he didn't even need to lose a limb! Come to think of it, it is kind of weird that no one has lost a limb in this new series yet. There were a couple lost in the OT, and good lord was the PT all about cutting off limbs.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:59
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thrawn527 posted:Come to think of it, it is kind of weird that no one has lost a limb in this new series yet. There were a couple lost in the OT, and good lord was the PT all about cutting off limbs. 
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Jan 12, 2018 19:03
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Lord Hydronium posted:Snoke gets an arm lopped off when the lightsaber goes through him! Oh, well, yeah, I guess that counts. But it's just not the same.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:07
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Dirk the Average posted:The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. gently caress you
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Jan 12, 2018 19:14
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As much as humans have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, animals that are slaves to their instincts.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:24
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Dirk the Average posted:The whole droid thing fascinates me because it's plausibly something that we might struggle with in our lifetimes, and if not in our lifetimes, the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I don't think that I could plausibly see a droid or any robotic being as being equal to a human, ever. As much as droids have personalities and develop quirks, they are, in the end, robots that are slaves to their software. If we do develop robots on the mental level of Star Wars droids within the next 40 years or so, it will be very tough for people who have been around for the evolution of computers from extremely basic machines to semi-sentient beings to actually accept that those semi-sentient beings have crossed a threshold where they should enjoy personhood, and not be treated like every other machine that has come before them. It's fascinating how not only is this ideologically vile, it's completely untrue given what we seen on the screen
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Jan 12, 2018 19:29
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thrawn527 posted:Oh, well, yeah, I guess that counts. But it's just not the same.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:30
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An organic body and an inorganic body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:31
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Lord Hydronium posted:Well, maybe Episode IX wil make up for it. After all, TPM had no limbs lost, AOTC had one limb, and by ROTS limbs were just flying off every which way. Great leaps in Star Wars medical procedures evolved over the time period of the movies and of course less jedi = less people losing limbs.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:42
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Crion posted:It's fascinating how not only is this ideologically vile, it's completely untrue given what we seen on the screen There is a fundamental difference between a consumer commodity and a person. Droids are built, manufactured, and programmed to specifications. They develop quirks, personalities, feelings, etc., but in the end, they are machines. There's a whole spectrum of machinery too - people aren't calling the use of a fire control computer slavery, or the use of any vehicle or starship slavery. At what point does the machine become complex enough to gain rights? What rights can they have? If droids can vote, what stops me from making scads of ultra-loyal droids with the minimum of sapience required by law to stack the vote in my favor? Hell, I can just keep them on racks and only activate them when it's time to vote. I can make them happy to and want to participate in that process. If I am a robotics manufacturer, I have no reason to create droids that are free citizens. I have created them, they have been manufactured, they are mine (just as if my factory had been producing any other commodity). If I were required to free them, I'd just make machines further down the sapience ladder that are allowed to be controlled and used. Machines like a fire control computer. This is fundamentally different than chattel slavery. Slaves were not built on an assembly line to a specification. Every aspect of their being was not designed and molded to precisely what their masters wanted. They were living people who deserved freedom. Droids were created by someone with a CAD program and some off the shelf components so that a task could be automated. We know exactly who created them, why they were created, and what their purpose is.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:00
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Droids are people and so are the clones.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:05
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