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ManSedan posted:So I’m rewatching Unicorn, is Banagher supposed to be a cyber Newtype? There’s a scene early on where he’s flashing back to being all plugged into a machine with a metal eyepatch and whatnot. I asked this almost exactly the same way a few weeks ago. I saw your question and thought I was time traveling. So not really and especially not thematically but it’s a confusing thing to have included
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Jan 10, 2018 23:06
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Regardless of the quality of unicorn, I will always say it has amazing animation quality.
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Jan 11, 2018 01:04
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The only things that really come close are CCA and thunderbolt season one. CCA has some great attention to detail, and December Sky has the best visualization of how a mobile suit moves. The scene where the psyco zaku hops across the wreckage of Moore is so cool looking.
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Jan 11, 2018 01:19
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Arcsquad12 posted:Well that was after forcing a draw with him in the RE-ZG. Guss didn't stand a chance against the Nu. Amuro was about to kill Gyunei even in the Re-GZ and Gyunei was only saved by Char intercepting the shot in his Sazabi. Even then, Amuro manages to hold on for a short while against both Gyunei and Char before retreating. Granted, that part is because Char was deliberately holding back and not using funnels (for the most part), but it still happened.
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Jan 11, 2018 03:21
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Monaghan posted:Half of thunderbotls soundtrack is fine, the other half is terrible warbling crap pop. For a brief, fleeting moment, I had a vision of Daniel Johnston’s music in Gundam.
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Jan 11, 2018 04:12
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I just listened to Neil Sedaka's song Better Days are Coming, which was adapted into Toki Wo Koete for Zeta Gundam. drat, this has got a groovy beat to it.
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Jan 11, 2018 05:25
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Kingtheninja posted:Regardless of the quality of unicorn, I will always say it has amazing animation quality. On a similar note I just started reading the manga adaptation of Unicorn. As I haven't read or read up much on the novels, I'm not sure how much comes directly from those and how much is new for the manga, but it does have a few extra scenes that the anime didn't that add a lot more background to the story and answer some stuff that got glossed over for production reasons. My favorite so far is when the Vist Foundation tests the NT-D mode on a regular human pilot. It sends him insane and leads him to kill almost the entire opposing squad in what was supposed to be a friendly exercise. The control room is unable to shutdown the Unicorn or deactivate NT-D remotely and it only eventually stops because the Unicorn had fried the pilot's brains. I felt it was a nice addition because you get a nice feel of why the Unicorns are so dangerous and why anyone who pilots the Banshee goes nuts. Though I get that in the anime they probably didn't want to show the Unicorn in full action until Banagher got his grubby little mitts on it.
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Jan 11, 2018 06:10
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Someone from Anaheim could have showed that to one of the Federation guys or really anyone to show them (and the audience) how dangerous the RX-0s are after Banagher had opened up.
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Jan 11, 2018 06:20
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My favorite bit so far has been when Papa Vist starts waxing poetic about Newtype philosophy and how its definition is being twisted by the military industrial complex, intercut with shots of a sleeves pilot fighting Londo Bell while shrieking Zeon propaganda and getting completely and ruthlessly beaten down. Then it cuts to Zimmerman looking bored as hell.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:48
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The first three unicorn ova's are really good and it's a shame the series couldn't keep up that quality.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:19
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I'd still say that Unicorn overall is frustratingly average, but episode 4's focus on the final stand of the Zeon remnants on Earth is one of the best moments in the entire Universal Century. It's also the only time in the show where I felt any sort of sympathy for Banagher.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:22
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Banagher is very whiny throughout the OVA and the scene that sticks in my mind the most when thinking about Unicorn is him and Zimmerman sitting in the desert at night talking and Banagher starts crying. I forget but Zimmerman might have started slapping him.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:40
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If I had to live in the hellhole that is the Universal Century I'd be crying too.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:42
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I am a cry-er newtype, my name is Pour (because the tears are always pouring) UC is so sad even Time is crying
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Jan 11, 2018 20:48
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A compilation of everytime someone cri in UC.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:51
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Darkman Fanpage posted:Banagher is very whiny throughout the OVA and the scene that sticks in my mind the most when thinking about Unicorn is him and Zimmerman sitting in the desert at night talking and Banagher starts crying. I forget but Zimmerman might have started slapping him. He's a pretty pure Newtype. This is 100% in line with their vastly increased capacity for empathy.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:57
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At least Banagher had an actual reason to cry that time. He spends the first three episodes being this stuck up kid who is always convinced that you can solve everything without violence, and then, after actually killing someone, he is utterly broken. It's also a great way of looking at Zinnerman's character, as he is sympathetic to Banagher's emotional state, but in the same episode is willing to commit massacres for the sake of petty revenge. It's a good episode that actually looks at the consequences of violence, rather than soapboxing about them.
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Jan 11, 2018 21:05
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Darkman Fanpage posted:Banagher is very whiny throughout the OVA and the scene that sticks in my mind the most when thinking about Unicorn is him and Zimmerman sitting in the desert at night talking and Banagher starts crying. I forget but Zimmerman might have started slapping him. In the scene where Banagher cries Zimmerman tells him that there is no shame in crying because you care. He slaps Banagher (and slams his head into a wall) when Banagher is telling him to call off the attack and send him out, and then Banagher beats the poo poo out of him while his helmsmen just go "sorry we're busy" and lean back in their chairs when he asks for help. Unicorn ep 4 is good.
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Jan 12, 2018 12:54
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EthanSteele posted:In the scene where Banagher cries Zimmerman tells him that there is no shame in crying because you care. He slaps Banagher (and slams his head into a wall) when Banagher is telling him to call off the attack and send him out, and then Banagher beats the poo poo out of him while his helmsmen just go "sorry we're busy" and lean back in their chairs when he asks for help. Unicorn ep 4 is good. Basically, the only reason the Sleeves and Zeon remnants lost at Torrington was because they had enough lingering morality to decide they weren’t OK with yet another civilian massacre, and deployed against their own superweapon.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:06
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Darth Walrus posted:Basically, the only reason the Sleeves and Zeon remnants lost at Torrington was because they had enough lingering morality to decide they weren’t OK with yet another civilian massacre, and deployed against their own superweapon. Their superweapon had already stopped pursuing the military objective and had wandered into the city to start massacring civilians while their conventional forces got annihilated by the rallying Feddies. There was no victory to be had there, which was entirely the point of the scene. The entire affair was a useless scream into the night for the Zeon remnants. Hell, even if they had wiped out the Torrington garrison and destroyed it, they would have gained absolutely nothing since whoopdie doo you destroyed a major military base at the cost of most of your resources while fighting against a planet. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 14:53
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Darth Walrus posted:Basically, the only reason the Sleeves and Zeon remnants lost at Torrington was because they had enough lingering morality to decide they weren’t OK with yet another civilian massacre, and deployed against their own superweapon. If they had such moral objection, they wouldn't have started massacring civilians there in the first place. They didn't lose because they weren't okay with it, they lost regardless of it.
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Jan 12, 2018 15:38
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The zeon remnants were so consumed by hate that they knew the Torrington attack was a suicide mission. They did it anyways, not because they truly believed in the Sleeves cause, but because they had nothing left to lose and every reason to want to give the Federation one last black eye and go down in a blaze of glory for all the supposed past injustices they'd suffered since losing the OYW. Loni had no ideological reason to fight, she was only there to avenge her family, who died fighting in a war during which she was barely a child. Her zaku sniper surrogate father whose name escapes me is only fighting to protect her, however, which complicates the blind vengeance angle of the remnant forces. Most of them probably do feel something beyond vengeance, which is why Banagher calls our Zinnerman for his bullshit, and why the Grancieres crew don't help Zinnerman when Banagher kicks the crap out of him. There is something beyond revenge and they know it. The tragedy then comes from the fact that so many of the zeon remnants fail to step back and let go of their hatred before it is too late, and the result is a total massacre that wipes out a bunch of sad old veterans and a young woman with everything to live for. She only finds her peace after death when she had every chance before to let go. But she didn't figure it out in time and by then someone with less compunction about vompassion, Riddhe, ended her without a second thought.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:10
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Riddhe didn't kill her because of a lack of compassion, he killed her because he had no idea she was in the midst of changing her mind and stopping given that he wasn't in psychic communication with her at the time. I'd also say that killing the Zeon Remnants was less a massacre than what they were themselves doing, especially at Dakar; which was basically taking place concurrent to Torrington and which was knowingly a civilian base targeted for revenge rather than any military or ideological basis. Loni is operating off an inherited cause. She herself doesn't hate the Federation, her father did. And I don't believe the OVA even gives any particular reason why. In that way she fits more closely with the rest of the cast; Banagher, Mineva, Riddhe, Full Frontal and probably some others all inherit something from their parents that informs their actions and the story is mostly about them dealing with that and in some cases over coming it.
tsob fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 17:30
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Loni is one of the worst goddamn things about the OVA because her justifications are incredibly loving weak and she is just massacring civilians for the sake of some stupid revenge idea. You can tell writer/director wants the audience to have pity for her, but I sure as hell don't. She's a ham fisted shallow mess of a character.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:38
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I'm told she has more reasons in the novel, but honestly, I like that her reasons are hollow in the OVA because it fits the theme of inherited ideals and how they can shape you better than giving her personal motivation. Her doing these horrible things simply because her father told her she should and with no real investment in why says a lot about the shittiness of people and their hollow reasons for conflict. I do agree that the narrative shouldn't have tried to make her some sad puppy tragedy, and that it'd have been better if Banagher had killed her and her ghost had realized how awful she was the same as how some of the cast in Zeta did if I recall, but her lack of motivation is itself something I like.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:45
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tsob posted:Riddhe didn't kill her because of a lack of compassion, he killed her because he had no idea she was in the midst of changing her mind and stopping given that he wasn't in psychic communication with her at the time. I'd also say that killing the Zeon Remnants was less a massacre than what they were themselves doing, especially at Dakar; which was basically taking place concurrent to Torrington and which was knowingly a civilian base targeted for revenge rather than any military or ideological basis. Loni is operating off an inherited cause. She herself doesn't hate the Federation, her father did. And I don't believe the OVA even gives any particular reason why. In that way she fits more closely with the rest of the cast; Banagher, Mineva, Riddhe, Full Frontal and probably some others all inherit something from their parents that informs their actions and the story is mostly about them dealing with that and in some cases over coming it. She's tragic in the sense that she really doesn't get a chance to redeem herself because Riddhe ends the situation before Banagher can get through to Loni and convince her to stand down. I also still believe that the death of the remnants was a massacre, but more in a "what the gently caress did you think would happen?" way, and not in a "what a waste of life" way like I see in the Dakar attack. The tragedy of the Zeon's end stems from the fact that they've had every chance to stop fighting, are shown to have motivations beyond fighting, such as love or a desire to survive, and they piss it all away on some half cocked revenge plan because they're angry. They're pawns for Full Frontal, but they're willing pawns who know they could choose otherwise, but choose not to.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:48
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People being motivated by sins of past, even sins they didn't personally experience, is a pretty big part of Unicorn. Loni's pretty thin but her lack of a motivation is something important. I think she mostly hurts by repeating the same basic beats as Marida but Marida does everything better.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:50
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She even has a surrogate father, Kirts ( I looked his name up) the same way Marida has Zinnerman. Their dynamics parallel each other to an extent, as you say, Imp, but what separates them is the lack of choice that Loni gets, and that Banagher fails with Loni where he succeeded with Marida.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:53
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tsob posted:I'm told she has more reasons in the novel, but honestly, I like that her reasons are hollow in the OVA because it fits the theme of inherited ideals and how they can shape you better than giving her personal motivation. Her doing these horrible things simply because her father told her she should and with no real investment in why says a lot about the shittiness of people and their hollow reasons for conflict. I do agree that the narrative shouldn't have tried to make her some sad puppy tragedy, and that it'd have been better if Banagher had killed her and her ghost had realized how awful she was the same as how some of the cast in Zeta did if I recall, but her lack of motivation is itself something I like. I agree with this. I wouldn't mind her so much if it wasn't for the complete tonal disconnect that the show presents. No, I'm not going to feel pity for a character who butchers thousands of people due to her belief that that's what her dad wanted. No amount of sad music or a close up of her crying, is going to change anything. I've made this complaint before but having a character yell "shes a good person" means nothing when the show does nothing to show that she's a good person. If at the end, she has a newtype ghost moment in which she goes "what the gently caress was I doing." that would be fine. You'd still get the contrast between herself and banagher, what with being enslaved by the wishes of your parents. Loni's problem is compounded by Banagher being a goddamn idiot and not just firing the gun. She drags everyone down. Riddhe was completely in the wright to shoot her but the show seems to suggest that it was a morally questionable thing to do. EDIT- the show succeeds with Marida because they make Marida a character, not some psycho yelling zieg zeon.
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Jan 12, 2018 17:54
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Loni doesn't get a chance to redeem herself and resists the urge to be something other than a Zeon fanatic for so long that her choice gets made for her and she dies. She's basically Marida before her character development started, and it shows that even when you reach out to someone with compassion, like Banagher does, it doesn't always work out. He succeeds with Marida, but fails utterly with Loni due to time, his own refusal to accept a lost cause, and her own stubbornness. It might not garner sympathy from you, but it makes sense, and you can at least look at the events of episode four from the perspective that this was a useless waste of life, which might as well be the tagline for the UC.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:00
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I do agree, but I find it sad that the focus of the useless waste of life is Loni and the Zeon Remants rather than all the civilians of Dakar who were mowed down by them, to the point that you don't even seem to view that part as worth mentioning. Not to say that Loni and the Zeon Remnants situation isn't tragic or worthy of some attention too, but that Unicorn and much discussion of the events of episode 4 seem to dismiss or outright forget about the thousands they killed purely for revenge is kind of hosed up.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:57
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tsob posted:I do agree, but I find it sad that the focus of the useless waste of life is Loni and the Zeon Remants rather than all the civilians of Dakar who were mowed down by them, to the point that you don't even seem to view that part as worth mentioning. Not to say that Loni and the Zeon Remnants situation isn't tragic or worthy of some attention too, but that Unicorn and much discussion of the events of episode 4 seem to dismiss or outright forget about the thousands they killed purely for revenge is kind of hosed up. The attack on Dakar is the single most devastating battle in the entire Third Neo Zeon War, with casualties in the thousands, and the episode covers it in less than two minutes. It certainly is worth mentioning, but the episode itself treats it as an afterthought to focus on the Remnant's last stand. It is hosed up, but I don't hold it against the episode, because really, the entire show fails to really present the war as anything other than a series of skirmishes rather than an outright existential conflict. The same could be said for the other post-OYW conflicts as well, since none of them have the same level of attention to really make you realize this is a widespread conflict and not just two carrier groups throwing a dozen suits at each other. At least there, Zeta and ZZ ended things pretty well by showing fullscale fleet actions.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:12
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The massacre kicked off when Loni‘s brain got eaten by her malfunctioning psycommu (and through it, the grudge of her dead father). She literally was not in control of her actions, any more than Marida was after Martha reprogrammed her. That’s what makes her tragic.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:15
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Arcsquad12 posted:The attack on Dakar is the single most devastating battle in the entire Third Neo Zeon War, with casualties in the thousands, and the episode covers it in less than two minutes. Isn't Loni and the Shamblo at Dakar?
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Jan 12, 2018 19:25
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tsob posted:Isn't Loni and the Shamblo at Dakar? Yeah she is. She blows an entire street up.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:36
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Arcsquad12 posted:Yeah she is. She blows an entire street up. Then I can't see how it's over in two minutes, because I'm pretty sure Loni's death alone takes up more than two minutes.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:46
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tsob posted:Then I can't see how it's over in two minutes, because I'm pretty sure Loni's death alone takes up more than two minutes. The attack on Dakar happens at the start of the episode. The attack on Torrington happens later, and the shamblo is present at both. Also one is in Africa and the other is in Australia. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 19:53
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tsob posted:Then I can't see how it's over in two minutes, because I'm pretty sure Loni's death alone takes up more than two minutes. namek time can strike anywhere at any time. stay safe friends
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Jan 12, 2018 19:54
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tsob posted:Then I can't see how it's over in two minutes, because I'm pretty sure Loni's death alone takes up more than two minutes. Loni's death takes place at Torrington. Dakar is earlier in the ep.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:10
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Torrington must have some civilian casualties then, as well as a military base, because doesn't the climax of Banagher and Riddhe's efforts against the Shamblo take place in a car park in front of some office buildings? I know the staff have said the city was emptier than usual because of a holiday, but there can't be no civilians in a city.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:34
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