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If the G man can get you to worship him by flooding the world or turning towns into salt then I don’t see the harm in a little fire and relocation between friends
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Jan 9, 2018 22:30
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What types of non-autocratic governmental structures existed outside of Europe in antiquity?
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Jan 9, 2018 22:32
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unwantedplatypus posted:What types of non-autocratic governmental structures existed outside of Europe in antiquity? Various peaceful and democratic libertarian societies, which were eventually crushed by statist tyranny.
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Jan 9, 2018 22:43
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That's one hell of a take on tribal societies.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:26
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Atlantis, located in the Bolivian highlands had a benevolent and enlightened rulership by philosophers...
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Jan 10, 2018 00:58
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unwantedplatypus posted:What types of non-autocratic governmental structures existed outside of Europe in antiquity? I was gonna say the Iroqouis, but the confederation likely wasn't founded till the 1400's
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Jan 10, 2018 09:29
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unwantedplatypus posted:What types of non-autocratic governmental structures existed outside of Europe in antiquity? There were a number of states in India in the 6th and 5th centuries BCE called ganasanghas or ganarajya, that seem to have been republics or oligarchies rather like Greek or Phoenician city states. They were clearly not monarchies, since there were several kingdoms existing alongside them. Doesn't sound like that form of governance survived later than the 4th century BCE when large empires formed in India, though. It's all kingdoms after that, all the way to 1947.
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Jan 10, 2018 10:22
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Senor Dog posted:Yeezus of Nazareth 
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Jan 10, 2018 19:02
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Kassad posted:There were a number of states in India in the 6th and 5th centuries BCE called ganasanghas or ganarajya, that seem to have been republics or oligarchies rather like Greek or Phoenician city states. They were clearly not monarchies, since there were several kingdoms existing alongside them. Doesn't sound like that form of governance survived later than the 4th century BCE when large empires formed in India, though. It's all kingdoms after that, all the way to 1947. parts of the Maratha Confederacy were also quasi-oligarchical but I'm not sure I can actually say it wasn't a monarchy at the time, it's not like there aren't tons of other nominal kingdoms in history that were in practice run during one reign or another by bureaucrats and/or noble councils, and authority theoretically still derived from the overlord. edit also the Maratha weren't exactly antiquity, whoops 
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 07:29
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unwantedplatypus posted:What types of non-autocratic governmental structures existed outside of Europe in antiquity? The Icelandic Commonwealth was basically the closest to an anarcho-capitalist "state" humanity has ever gotten, and is arguably outside of Europe. That's not "antiquity" so much as "Middle Ages" though.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:22
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The all thing started in 930 and its the coolest sounding parliament ever.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:55
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Also the rock the Althing met on was the division between the Eurasian and North American plates.
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Jan 12, 2018 15:04
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I mention this because we're reading the Saga of Burned Njal in book barn this month come join https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3845840 (shameless plug!)
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Jan 12, 2018 15:18
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From what I've read about society on medieval Iceland it was similar to the mafia if anything, with a sort of client system, prestige which largely depended on wealth and meant power (including political), honour killings, blood feuds and some laws (but enforcing those laws generally fell upon the injured party and their family.) Whenever I read about places like Albania and parts of the Caucasus with their clans and blood feuds I'm struck by the similarities to the medieval Icelanders (and Norse in general I suppose.) Incredibly fascinating, I might join in the reading of that saga. I love the terse and matter-of-factly way those sagas have of expressing things. I also the Saga of Gisli, an outlaw who survives for years on the run, there's even a faithful and pretty decent film based on it.
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Jan 12, 2018 15:46
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Book of the month is a great thread and everyone should join in. The introduction to my version of Njal saga warns that the constant references in the work to the very real, and mostly still present, locations in Iceland, can tempt the reader into too much credulity regarding its narrative, but it's at least grounded in some real events, and is cool a.f. Edit: and the link in the OP about learning the old Icelandic has an introduction to the historical and cultural foundations of the work, so even MORE history. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 16:45
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Grevling posted:From what I've read about society on medieval Iceland it was similar to the mafia if anything, with a sort of client system, prestige which largely depended on wealth and meant power (including political), honour killings, blood feuds and some laws (but enforcing those laws generally fell upon the injured party and their family.) Whenever I read about places like Albania and parts of the Caucasus with their clans and blood feuds I'm struck by the similarities to the medieval Icelanders (and Norse in general I suppose.) Incredibly fascinating, I might join in the reading of that saga. I love the terse and matter-of-factly way those sagas have of expressing things. There's a story about a couple of norwegian merchants who visited Iceland, they got drunk and chopped off someone's hand. The relatives of the newly amputated man demanded that the merchants should pay for this with gold which the merchants denied to do. The relatives then asked which of the merchants that had the highest status so that they could chop off his hand instead of paying the gold. The merchants then quickly coughed up the gold and left Iceland.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:55
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That's just like the wergild, that's hardly something unique to iceland.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:18
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CountFosco posted:That's just like the wergild, that's hardly something unique to iceland. Nor a thing of the past. Albania has still severe problems with blood feuds and a form of wergeld is one form to end decades of murder.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:37
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The main unique thing about Iceland, aside from being incredibly isolated and not very valuable to conquer, is the fact that it had an almost embarrassing literacy rate. I mean, kudos for you for your scholarship, but it does kinda feel like they have nothing better to do.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:52
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SlothfulCobra posted:The main unique thing about Iceland, aside from being incredibly isolated and not very valuable to conquer, is the fact that it had an almost embarrassing literacy rate. How does someone figure out pre-modern literacy rates?
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Jan 12, 2018 21:37
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Decius posted:Nor a thing of the past. Albania has still severe problems with blood feuds and a form of wergeld is one form to end decades of murder. So does Iraq. In 2003 an average male adult's life was worth about $1500 USD.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:53
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Elyv posted:How does someone figure out pre-modern literacy rates? Search gravesites for bifocals and pocket protectors
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Jan 12, 2018 22:16
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Turns out German(ic)s have been way into board games for much longer than I thought.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:29
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Elyv posted:How does someone figure out pre-modern literacy rates? Graffiti full of swears = literate population.
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Jan 12, 2018 23:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:The main unique thing about Iceland, aside from being incredibly isolated and not very valuable to conquer, is the fact that it had an almost embarrassing literacy rate.
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Jan 12, 2018 23:35
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Omnomnomnivore posted:Turns out German(ic)s have been way into board games for much longer than I thought. Good video in a similar vein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZskjLq040I
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Jan 13, 2018 03:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Good video in a similar vein: Looks like there's an online version of that, if you want to play a 4500 year old board game: https://www.yourturnmyturn.com/java/ur/index.php
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Jan 13, 2018 03:36
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cheetah7071 posted:Looks like there's an online version of that, if you want to play a 4500 year old board game: How could the answer to "do you want to play a 4500 year old board game" ever be "no" (answer: if you're sober, most ancient world games seem intended to be drunken gambling games)
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Jan 13, 2018 03:55
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cheetah7071 posted:Looks like there's an online version of that, if you want to play a 4500 year old board game: I think I'd be more surprised if anyone hasn't been murdered in a rage over this game.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:09
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So, the Mongols. Would they have been able to conquer Europe all the way to the Atlantic if they had tried?
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Jan 13, 2018 04:10
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mossyfisk posted:I think I'd be more surprised if anyone hasn't been murdered in a rage over this game. It's actually a really really cleverly designed game. Makes sense, non-clever games don't last for thousands of years. Just enough randomness that you can gamble over it without just always betting on the better player, simple enough that you can be kind of okay at it even when drunk, but with enough tactical depth the AI can trounce me repeatedly on this little app
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Jan 13, 2018 04:19
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So, the Mongols. Would they have been able to conquer Europe all the way to the Atlantic if they had tried? I read somewhere that the kind of bow they used falls apart in extended periods of high humidity and that they would have had at the very least to adapt to that.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:20
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So, the Mongols. Would they have been able to conquer Europe all the way to the Atlantic if they had tried? They did try, Batu stated outright that he intended to do this and it’s conceivable he would have succeeded had he persisted in it, but he didn’t. It was reasonably tough and unrenumerative campaigning due to the climate and high number of fortifications in Central Europe and he was distracted from it by the infighting following Ogedei’s death, which is understandable since that was a good bit more personally important to him than conquering new territories. When Möngke finally attained supreme power and Batu had a free hand to continue, he promptly died. Subsequent Mongol leaders didn’t have the interest or power to campaign on the same scale.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:30
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Elyv posted:How does someone figure out pre-modern literacy rates? You really can't with any certainty, it's a lot of guesswork. It's harder the further back you go, as you have less and less written material. Basically what you do is look at: How much written material is there? What types do you have? What's the audience for it? Who wrote it? Then you extrapolate. If there's not a lot of written material and it's all written by scribes aimed for the top stratum of society, you can guess literacy is low. This is the situation in the Middle Ages. If there's a ton of written stuff and you have examples from normal people, and a decent amount of the material appears to be aimed at the average citizen, you can guess literacy is relatively high. That's why people like me think Roman urban literacy was relatively high, you find people scratching "Gaius hosed his sister" in the wall of bathrooms and text advertisements for products and stuff like that for and from a non-elite audience. After extrapolating, you argue endlessly with other historians. I don't know anything about Icelandic literacy.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How could the answer to "do you want to play a 4500 year old board game" ever be "no" excuse me but kottabos is a game for gentlemen, a sort of proto beer pong
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Jan 13, 2018 04:37
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Grand Fromage posted:You really can't with any certainty, it's a lot of guesswork. It's harder the further back you go, as you have less and less written material. Basically what you do is look at: Is there an argument to be made for some people being half-literate, i.e. able to read and write a few specific things? I'm thinking of how a random member of the Veringian guard was able to carve "Halfdan was here" into a railing at the Hagia Sophia, which seems like it would indicate a higher degree of literacy than I'd expect, but it's not a very complicated phrase and could be learned rote as a thing the cool kids are doing.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:47
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cheetah7071 posted:It's actually a really really cleverly designed game. Makes sense, non-clever games don't last for thousands of years. Just enough randomness that you can gamble over it without just always betting on the better player, simple enough that you can be kind of okay at it even when drunk, but with enough tactical depth the AI can trounce me repeatedly on this little app that's okay there's not even a 'you're winner' 
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Jan 13, 2018 04:48
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cheetah7071 posted:Is there an argument to be made for some people being half-literate, i.e. able to read and write a few specific things? I'm thinking of how a random member of the Veringian guard was able to carve "Halfdan was here" into a railing at the Hagia Sophia, which seems like it would indicate a higher degree of literacy than I'd expect, but it's not a very complicated phrase and could be learned rote as a thing the cool kids are doing. It's likely a lot of literate people had limited literacy, but there's no way at all to determine that from the evidence. I don't mean memorized phrases but like a fourth grade reading level or whatever. I actually would expect the Varangian Guard to be literate, since they were mostly sons of Norse elites and we know from evidence that people like centurions had to be literate, so someone in a position like that probably would need to be able to read.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:57
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Grand Fromage posted:I actually would expect the Varangian Guard to be literate, since they were mostly sons of Norse elites and we know from evidence that people like centurions had to be literate, so someone in a position like that probably would need to be able to read. and because of the way pens worked back then i can tell that it wasn't just someone who had barely idea how a pen worked scrawling the letters on something, most of these people knew the proper movements of your hand
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Jan 13, 2018 05:03
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I sometimes wonder if we overestimate how illiterate past people were simply because most of the material they would've written on doesn't survive in the archaeological record and wasn't going to be preserved by copies. It's not like learning an alphabet is a huge task to surmount, the whole reason they became popular is they're simple.
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Jan 13, 2018 05:12
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