D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Kaysette: Jan 5, 2009; ~*Boston makes me*~
~*feel good*~

queeb posted:

Hey guys. How good is the starter kit for 5E? My girlfriend and a few of her friends want to try D&D. none have any experience, I've played 5E like once but I've read the books, and played way back in 3rd. Figure it could be fun just to sit down for an evening and have everyone make characters or use a pre-generated and then do a one shot through the starter thing. Bad idea? I've never DM'd before so I dont know what im getting into.

It�s good. I prefer going through character creation versus using the pregens but either way works. Don�t expect to get through more than one chapter in a session. We did the starter adventure in maybe seven sessions of about two hours each. You can definitely treat the first goblin cave as a one-shot but the next chapter lets players see the RP aspects of RPG instead of just combat.

A lot of people here have run through LMoP and can give you specific advice and common pitfalls to avoid.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 18:29

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# ? May 15, 2024 19:02

Vital Signs: Oct 17, 2007

Hello everyone!

I am brand new to D&D. I had avoided this game for many years, and find it impressive that I was able to never play while working at an LGS for 5 years! A co-worker really sold me on the game, and I've now played around 10 times between two different groups (as a player character). I am 100% all in at this point. The game is an absolute blast. My question is, where do I go from here? What are some must haves to make things easier, better, or more fun? Do I actually need any of the literature at this point, if so... What book(s)? Thank you all in advance!

Vital Signs fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jan 14, 2018

# ? Jan 13, 2018 19:07

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

queeb posted:

Hey guys. How good is the starter kit for 5E? My girlfriend and a few of her friends want to try D&D. none have any experience, I've played 5E like once but I've read the books, and played way back in 3rd. Figure it could be fun just to sit down for an evening and have everyone make characters or use a pre-generated and then do a one shot through the starter thing. Bad idea? I've never DM'd before so I dont know what im getting into.

It's easy, though sadly the box doesn't include the rules to create your invincible NPC general that the players are meant to be scared of. It's okay though, just make sure to include them as immune to everything and able to cut down a bunch of the ogres everyone is fighting with sword slashes.

Vital Signs posted:

Hello everyone!

I am brand new to D&D. I had avoided this game for many years, and find it impressive that I was able to never play while working at an LGS for 5 years! A co-worker really sold me on the game, and I've now played around 10 times between two different groups. I am 100% all in at this point. The game is an absolute blast. My question is, where do I go from here? What are some must haves to make things easier, better, or more fun? Do I actually need any of the literature at this point, if so... What book(s)? Thank you all in advance!

The next step is playing as a 2500 lb. shapeshifting beast that can slay ogres with impunity. There's not really a supplement for it, you just sorta fake in on your character sheet. Make sure no one is playing a bard that can read all your stats though.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 19:33

Nehru the Damaja: May 20, 2005

queeb posted:

Hey guys. How good is the starter kit for 5E? My girlfriend and a few of her friends want to try D&D. none have any experience, I've played 5E like once but I've read the books, and played way back in 3rd. Figure it could be fun just to sit down for an evening and have everyone make characters or use a pre-generated and then do a one shot through the starter thing. Bad idea? I've never DM'd before so I dont know what im getting into.

It's more fun to make your own characters but there's a strong argument for pre-gen because the first character you make in 5e will probably legit take you an hour or so. (Before long you'll be able to do it in a matter of minutes, but just trying to figure out what everything is and does and where in the book you find it is a slog the first time.)

My biggest advice for starting that particular adventure is just start everyone at level 2. Your players don't know what they're doing and they're going to try some goofy things that might get them in trouble and the level 1 experience is already a bit dire because a good crit might just straight up lead to a party wipe. At level 2, combat is going to feel roughly the same but they'll be sitting on some extra hp and possibly a couple small features to make life easier. You can get around to that "this is a tough, unforgiving world and I'm not going to pull punches" stuff later.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 20:36

Giant Tourtiere: Aug 4, 2006; TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER

Nehru the Damaja posted:

poo poo yes I'd be interested

I wrote a bunch of :words:

. I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

quote:

My most extensive study was on late-medieval London, but the general setup is very similar to other English cities and reasonably portable to other Northern European cities. Things get different especially in Italy, but a lot of the general concepts of how an urban society functioned are pretty similar, again.

London at the time my research covered had a population between 50-60,000. To enforce the law, there were two sheriffs (I can tell you more about them if you want) who also had to preside over a court and enforce writs as well as worrying about criminals. They had perhaps 200 constables to help them, and 'constable' here means 'minor civic official' not 'armed cop'. Every ward in London did keep a night watch, but again these were citizen volunteers who went around the streets looking for nightwalkers (about which more later) rather than anything we would recognize as police.

Sheriff was, by the way, such a pain in the rear end job that people would regularly try to get out of doing it if they were elected, and sometimes had to be threatened with a fine to get them to serve. The main reason outside of that that people put up with it at all was that serving a term as Sheriff was an important thing to do if you wanted to be mayor one day.

So, medieval cities had nothing that we would recognize as a coercive police force. How did they make people behave? This was essentially what my thesis was about.

Social shaming was one of the primary mechanisms. Basically, to succeed in urban society (and probably medieval society generally, but I'm gonna try to stay focused) you needed to have a good reputation. If people got to thinking you were a dishonest shady character they would want nothing to do with you, wouldn't sell to you or buy from you, wouldn't rent you property, won't want you in their place. So in a lot of ways, you behave because you need your neighbours to think well of you. Because you need that to get by.

(We think this is especially the case for a lot of ordinary people because it seems like a lot of the medieval economy was pretty cash-free. People didn't have a lot of cash money. Most business happened through networks of credit, which really depends on people thinking that you're a reliable dude who's good for it.)

A lot of that is I guess more 'shunning' than shaming, but shame-based punishment definitely was a thing as well. Having your crimes publicly proclaimed, so that everyone would know you were a whore or a seller of rancid butter or a nightwalker (it was basically assumed that anyone out after dark was up to no good) would be part of it, a lot of times they would take you through the main streets of town with either musicians or people banging pots and pans to attract attention, sometimes you'd be seated backwards on a horse or dragged on a hurdle. Sometimes there would be some visual indicator of what you did (one of my favourite cases was this one where a guy had been siphoning water out of the public conduit, and he was supposed to be taken through the streets with a little model conduit on his head, however they were going to make that work) and sometimes you'd be put in stocks in a public place for a while at the end of it.

The intention here was to make your crime very very public, which destroys your reputation by letting everyone know who the dishonest jerk is. There's also an obvious deterrent factor - you don't want this to happen to you, so you'll avoid doing the kinds of things that get punished in this way.

Sometimes people were punished by being branded with a letter indicating their crime and/or banished from the city; we think those were usually repeat offenders but it's not always possible to tell. Banishment would have been a major thing for ordinary people because starting over in a new community would be very hard, especially if you were poor - no-one knows you, no-one trusts you, no-one really wants to hire you or have much to do with you. There have been studies done that show that when people moved, they usually tried either go places where they already knew someone, or move in a group of friends and family who could look out for each other.

Now, there would absolutely have been people in any kind of community who are not respectable, will never be respectable, and know perfectly well that they will never be respectable. (Realistically this is where most D&D parties are likely to fall, especially at low level) For these people, none of the shunning/shaming works, because their reputation is poo poo, and can't get any worse. What's life like for these people?

Unfortunately it's hard to know, because these are the people who are least likely to show up in our records. However, they would have gotten by dealing with other non-respectable people. You could certainly survive. But the thing is that respectable people, the wealthy ones with the nice shops and influence in the community - they will avoid you like the plague. It would damage their own reputation to even be seen associating with you.

Outside of shunning/shaming stuff, fines were the main other kind of punishment. If you were fined for selling shoddy merchandise or being drunk in the streets or eavesdropping (seriously) or selling your poo poo for higher than the set prices or for being a vagabond and didn't or couldn't pay, then you might actually get put in jail. Usually the idea was that if you were in prison, this would motivate you to use whatever connections you might have to clear your debt. Obviously the very poor could never do this, so they don't usually bother with jail for them - kick them out of the city if they're causing a real problem.

We might expect that under these circumstances most people would have no experience with the law. This is far from the case, though. It seems very likely that almost everybody, all the way down the social ladder, would have been involved in a legal case in some way at some point in their life. It just worked quite differently. If you had someone who stole from you or didn't pay for work you did or hosed your wife or whatever, 99% of the time you gotta take 'em to court your own self. If they don't come in voluntarily (which they might, to defend their rep) then the court will issue an order that they have to; if they still refuse then that's the sort of thing a Sheriff will eventually deal with, or they might just declare the person an outlaw. (Outlaw means all your property is forfeit to the Crown and anyone and everyone can seize or kill you with impunity for a reward. It sucks.)

This gets back to the social reputation thing because how almost every medieval court case worked was that each side brought in a bunch of people to swear to their side of the story. Like, let's imagine that John the Weaver says that Samwise the Shepherd promised to sell him 5 bags of wool for 15 pennies, and Samwise says no you promised me 25 pennies. There's almost certainly not going to be any evidence to look at, because everyone's illiterate and so nothing was written down. So what to do?

Well, John brings in a bunch of people who all say that John the Weaver is an good man of unimpeachable character who would surely never be anything less than scrupulously honest and fair in all his dealings, and Samwise brings in his own people. What gets assessed by the court is partly how many people you can bring in, but also who these people are - are they a bunch of sketchy vagabonds or a bunch of well-to-do churchgoers that we've all known forever? We should also add that although (in England anyway) a lot of these are 'trials by jury' but 'jury' here does not mean 'an objective group of people' the way we would expect, it explicitly means a bunch of guys who are especially familiar with the circumstances of the case and (as the theory goes) can be expected to figure out who's telling the truth.

People usually ask - what's stopping you from just lying all the time to get out of things? Nothing, except the reputation you'd get in the community for being a lying liar who lies and then after a while no-one will agree to any kind of deal with you no matter what the terms are because they know you're a shithead who constantly breaks his word.

Not all of this is really useful for D&D, I guess, but if you wanted to you could push the idea of how much of a problem it would be for a bunch of scary vagabonds to roll into a town where no-one knows them and try to get things done. Everyone's going to be super wary of them, because who are these people and how do we know we can trust them? If they get into any kind of poo poo, they're going to have no-body to stand up with them in court who the court is gonna want to listen to, so they're basically turbofucked.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 21:48

Vital Signs: Oct 17, 2007

theironjef posted:

The next step is playing as a 2500 lb. shapeshifting beast that can slay ogres with impunity. There's not really a supplement for it, you just sorta fake in on your character sheet. Make sure no one is playing a bard that can read all your stats though.

Thanks!

# ? Jan 13, 2018 22:18

Lurdiak: Feb 26, 2006; I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.

Yeah, monster manual, I totally buy that ogres carry javelins around.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 22:22

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

This was a good post and I enjoyed reading it. Medieval social dynamics are very interesting and cool.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 23:15

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Lurdiak posted:

Yeah, monster manual, I totally buy that ogres carry javelins around.

Maybe they collect them off the bodies of dumb adventurers.

Maybe they sharpen straight branches and ~~through~~THROW them super hard.

Maybe some other thing?

You can always give them rocks.

edit- Thanks spell correct. :mad:

FRINGE fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jan 14, 2018

# ? Jan 13, 2018 23:59

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

Thanks, that was super interesting.

# ? Jan 13, 2018 23:59

Lurdiak: Feb 26, 2006; I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.

FRINGE posted:

Maybe they collect them off the bodies of dumb adventurers.

Maybe they sharpen straight branches and through them super hard.

Maybe some other thing?

You can always give them rocks.

Yeah, rocks makes more sense to me. It's not a big deal but it's a pretty obvious case of "poo poo, these guys need to be viable at range or they'll get owned really badly by a bunch of casters and rangers". I can totally picture some ogres having ranged weapons but the classic angry ogre with a club doesn't strike me as the type to have a plan B.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 00:13

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

All ogres are now Scottish and have Caber-based weaponry.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 00:32

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

unseenlibrarian posted:

All ogres are now Scottish and have Caber-based weaponry.

Make sure to do that bad accent too.

ACH DINNA NOODLE THAT WOULD SMASHIM FLAT AH DINT!

# ? Jan 14, 2018 01:08

Lurdiak: Feb 26, 2006; I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.

You're just describing Shrek.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 01:52

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

what was all this research for again? it's neat

# ? Jan 14, 2018 02:17

kingcom: Jun 23, 2012

Vital Signs posted:

Hello everyone!

I am brand new to D&D. I had avoided this game for many years, and find it impressive that I was able to never play while working at an LGS for 5 years! A co-worker really sold me on the game, and I've now played around 10 times between two different groups. I am 100% all in at this point. The game is an absolute blast. My question is, where do I go from here? What are some must haves to make things easier, better, or more fun? Do I actually need any of the literature at this point, if so... What book(s)? Thank you all in advance!

Are you a player character or a game master?

# ? Jan 14, 2018 02:25

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

Oh man this is also really cool as a case for police abolition. Thanks for writing it.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 02:49

Giant Tourtiere: Aug 4, 2006; TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER

mastershakeman posted:

what was all this research for again? it's neat

My PhD, mostly. Some of it was specific for my thesis and some of it was just learning things about medieval society. This is clearly a growth industry.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Oh man this is also really cool as a case for police abolition. Thanks for writing it.

Splicer posted:

Thanks, that was super interesting.

Kenning posted:

This was a good post and I enjoyed reading it. Medieval social dynamics are very interesting and cool.

Glad you liked it.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 03:06

Vital Signs: Oct 17, 2007

kingcom posted:

Are you a player character or a game master?

Player character.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 03:57

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Vital Signs posted:

Thanks!

Just to tell you he was joking. It was referring to an early story were heard.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 04:12

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Vital Signs posted:

Hello everyone!

I am brand new to D&D. I had avoided this game for many years, and find it impressive that I was able to never play while working at an LGS for 5 years! A co-worker really sold me on the game, and I've now played around 10 times between two different groups (as a player character). I am 100% all in at this point. The game is an absolute blast. My question is, where do I go from here? What are some must haves to make things easier, better, or more fun? Do I actually need any of the literature at this point, if so... What book(s)? Thank you all in advance!

Anyway as it does not seem like you interested in DMing yet. The books to follow up on the Players Handbook would be Xanathar's Guide to everything and maybe the Sword Coast Adventurers guide if you are interested in learning about the Forgotten Realms and checking out a few new subclasses. (Some repeat in Xanathar's Guide but not all of them, And if you are not interested in learning about the Sword Coast it's not worth it.)

Both books are optional however and you don't need them. There are also some novels for various D&D stuff, but I don't know too much about what is good.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 04:18

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

gradenko_2000 posted:

Oh man this is also really cool as a case for police abolition.

As much as I prefer the idea, it has scaling and responsiveness problems. (As in the LA/NY areas are > 10 million people, and reputation in the modern era can be swept up or down by coordinated social media responses (to start with).)

Then you add to that the repercussions where one angry outcast gets access to something explosive, and the scale of problem is vastly greater than "stole a sword and a bow". Actually I guess thats an argument in favor of DnD setting civil forces. Someone has to be able to get the assholes to stay in line once they get >1st level spells.

Maybe an all-mage panopticon town where everyone is surveilling each other in order to tear down the competition (and look like a hero, securing a temporary reputation boost) would make a good paranoia gimmick. :tinfoil:

# ? Jan 14, 2018 04:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

FRINGE posted:

As much as I prefer the idea, it has scaling and responsiveness problems. (As in the LA/NY areas are > 10 million people, and reputation in the modern era can be swept up or down by coordinated social media responses (to start with).)

Oh sure, not that it's a workable/implementable model, but rather as a look back on how things were done prior to the creation of the modern police force as a tool of property protection and property-rights enforcement.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 04:30

Vital Signs: Oct 17, 2007

MonsterEnvy posted:

Just to tell you he was joking. It was referring to an early story were heard.

I assumed so, thanks for the explanation!

MonsterEnvy posted:

Anyway as it does not seem like you interested in DMing yet. The books to follow up on the Players Handbook would be Xanathar's Guide to everything and maybe the Sword Coast Adventurers guide if you are interested in learning about the Forgotten Realms and checking out a few new subclasses. (Some repeat in Xanathar's Guide but not all of them, And if you are not interested in learning about the Sword Coast it's not worth it.)

Both books are optional however and you don't need them. There are also some novels for various D&D stuff, but I don't know too much about what is good.

Thanks for the info! I am no where close to being interested in DMing, seems super overwhelming to me. Any other tips or advice for a new person?

# ? Jan 14, 2018 05:34

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Vital Signs posted:

I assumed so, thanks for the explanation!

Thanks for the info! I am no where close to being interested in DMing, seems super overwhelming to me. Any other tips or advice for a new person?

Yeah thats why I suggested those books as they have the most player content. I can't think of any other advice or tips right now on the spot. Other people likely have some decent advice however.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 06:04

bewilderment: Nov 22, 2007; man what

Vital Signs posted:

I assumed so, thanks for the explanation!

Thanks for the info! I am no where close to being interested in DMing, seems super overwhelming to me. Any other tips or advice for a new person?

Even if you don't play it, this page for Dungeon World contains advice that you can use for most games.

Honestly for beginners to RPGs Dungeon World is a lot closer to "what I thought DnD would be like" than actual DnD is, and costs less, but either way you should probably get some use out of it.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 09:02

Slippery42: Nov 10, 2011

Vital Signs posted:

Thanks for the info! I am no where close to being interested in DMing, seems super overwhelming to me. Any other tips or advice for a new person?

I'd recommend checking out things like Sage Advice, where the designers answer rules questions. This can prove helpful for two reasons. First, it gives you an idea of which rules are most worth giving another look based on how often questions about them come up bonus action minutae. Second, some of the Q&A spells out little optimizations you might be able to use to build/play your character to their highest potential. Simplest example of this would be Monks being able to swing versatile weapons like the quarterstaff two-handed for a bigger damage die.

For elfgaming soft skills, you can pick those up in a bunch of places. You can listen to podcasts to absorb how other tables run and how their players both roleplay and design backstories for their characters. If you're looking for recommendations there, I'd point you to Critical Role (run and played by professional voice actors) and The Adventure Zone (lots of humor, great editing). And of course, poke around forums a bit like you're doing now. If you're willing to brave reddit, /r/dnd and dndnext are decent enough places to browse for discussion on specific topics about the game. When I was starting out, I'd read through "what annoys you" threads to see if I was doing anything that bothered my fellow players or DM.

As for physical stuff, you're probably fine with just the PHB and a set of dice. Maybe extra dice if your character needs them (sneak attacks and fireballs need lots of d6s). Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a bunch of additional character-building options through new archetypes, feats, and spells, but unless you plan on starting a new character anytime soon and are bored with the options presented in the PHB, you can probably skip it.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 12:01

Vital Signs: Oct 17, 2007

bewilderment posted:

Words.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

Slippery42 posted:

Words.

Thank you for all the advice. I have been checking out Reddit and have seen a few Critical Role things on YouTube. I'll have to check out Adventure Zone, as I have a 45 minute drive to work and can always use a new podcast.

One lingering question I currently have is if choosing to multi class this early on is going to be too much for a new player? It seems really awesome, but also potentially a lot more to keep track of. This is something I'm currently horrible at.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 16:03

Dameius: Apr 3, 2006

Multiclassing early isn't a bad idea in and of itself, but if you are still new enough that you are losing track of what you have in front of you already, then it may be worth it to yourself to hold off for awhile.

Depending on the game, current level, how fast y'all are leveling, that might still have you multiclass early. But just focus on digesting what you have first.

Or don't. It won't be the end of the world, if you do. If you don't already know, multiclassing splits your 20 character levels across two or more class levels, which means that you end up missing out on high level class features when you split your character like that. Because of this, you'll want to make sure that the power you get now is worth losing the power you could of had later.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 16:54

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Vital Signs posted:

One lingering question I currently have is if choosing to multi class this early on is going to be too much for a new player? It seems really awesome, but also potentially a lot more to keep track of. This is something I'm currently horrible at.

Multiclassing is fine and fairly easy. You just need to be aware of a few things:

- Stat synergy. Every class has a main stat you want as high as possible, often a secondary stat that's very beneficial as well, and everyone wants at least 14 CON - so don't spread yourself too thin to meet multiclass prerequisites. IE Paladin/Cleric requires STR/CHA/WIS at 13, which doesn't leave you much room to maneuver your important numbers; OTOH Fighter requires either STR or DEX 14, so that's a very easy dip for any class.
- Starting class. Your initial HP, Save proficiencies, and sometimes Armor proficiency are determined by the class chose at level 1. HP is just a 1-4 difference that matters early yet loses importance over the long term, but save proficiency is potentially huge - if you're playing a spellcasting class, you want proficiency in Constitution saves. The others are kind of interchangeable (DEX usually protects against HP damage, WIS against mental disables, you always get one or the other and the rest might as well not exist) but CON is huge for spellcasters. Concentration checks, man. Regarding armor, you can only get Heavy Armor proficiency through starting as a Fighter or Paladin (or taking certain Cleric domains), and if you're doing the pretty awesome Barbarian/Rogue multiclass you need to start Barbarian or you miss out on Medium Armor. There are feats that give you armor proficiencies, but they're bad. Just multiclass.
- The power spikes. Practically all classes get a power spike through access to an important feature at level 5 (Extra Attack, 3rd level spells aka Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern) which you want to delay as little as possible. This means it's advisable to not multiclass at all before level 5, or just do a single 1 level dip whose benefits outweight the delay (ie single fighter or cleric level dip for access to armor/shields on a bard or wizard).
Most classes also get an additional power spike at level 11, which again you should account for if you're thinking of taking more than 1 or 2 levels in an additional class, but most multiclasses come into their own around level 8 or 9 (5+3!) so whatever you were trying to do is probably working just fine already. This is actually the point where you should be analyzing "is what I'm doing a sidegrade? An upgrade? Downgrade?" if you care about overall character optimization when judging multiclass combinations.
- The capstones. This is another form of power spike, but it actually doesn't matter that much because like, who the gently caress cares about some cool power you'd get at level 20 if you stuck to the class, if you're doing something that's making you cooler levels 9 through 19? Right? It might be worth paying attention to if you're planning on a long-term game, but the fact is most class capstones aren't actually that good, and for many of the better ones you can safely dip 1 or 2 levels and still eventually get them. Personally, I don't even factor in 17+ level abilities when judging the power of classes or multiclasses; it takes so long to get there, comes up so rarely, and frankly the system is breaking down at that point because it's a shoddily designed piece of garbage. The comfort food of TTRPGs.
- The exceptions. Paladin gets Aura of Protection at level 6. You loving want this. That thing about most classes getting a power spike at 5? For Paladins this is just as good; beeline for it. And if you're an Oath of Ancients Paladin? You want that level 7 Aura of Warding as well. So good.
Warlocks are the other notable exception, because Eldritch Blast (plus the Agonizing Blast invocation) is the combat feature the class is built around and it's class-level agnostic; powers up automatically when you get to player level 5, and again at 11 and 19. So if you're Charisma-focused you can take 2 Warlock levels whenever and have solid pew pew regardless of anything else.
- Three-way multiclasses. Don't. Seriously, they just don't work.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 20:55

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

Yeah, that was great. Thanks for that.

# ? Jan 14, 2018 22:30

Slippery42: Nov 10, 2011

I'm a pretty min/max-y dude, and I've not felt the need to multiclass any of my characters yet. It's not as important for building effective characters as it may have been in previous editions, and it comes with a number of downsides that a lot of players seem to miss (probably by assuming things work the same way they did in those previous editions). Here are a few mistakes I've seen:

-Mistaking class level and character level - The former determines almost all of the stuff you actually get. This includes Ability Score Improvements, so you can't bump your stats or take a feat just because your Bard 2/Warlock 1 just hit Bard 2/Warlock 2. One of those classes will need to hit level 4 in order for you to get your stat boost. Character level determines your proficiency bonus, cantrip damage scaling, how many spell slots you have (if applicable), and a few race features depend on it, but I think that's all.

-Forgetting proficiency restrictions - You only get the proficiencies in your second class that the PHB explicitly says you do. Most importantly, you gain no save proficiencies from multiclassing. Fighter 1/Rogue 1 won't have proficiency in str, dex, con, and int saves. Rather, if you started Fighter, you'd have str and con only, and if you started Rogue, you'd have dex and int only. Some classes get class features that grant an additional save proficiency later on, and you would get those once you reach the appropriate level in that class.

-Spells - Defer to the example the PHB gives you rather than the rules (which imply the opposite). Wizard 10/Cleric 1 would have a 6th level spell slot. However, because neither class would have 6th level slots on its own, neither can prepare spells of that level (though they can cast lower level spells using that higher level slot). Also, that character's spellcasting modifier would almost certainly be different. Wizard spells would use the Wizard modifier (int), Cleric spells would use the Cleric modifier (wis) to determine things like spell attack bonus, save DC, etc.

-Extra Attacks - Even though both Fighters and Barbarians get this feature at level 5, a Fighter 2/Barbarian 3 won't have it, for example, and the feature doesn't stack, so Fighter 5/Barbarian 5 won't have three attacks.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 04:47

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

poo poo's gone down over the last 2 sessions and the DM just reminded me via email that, unfortunately for me, the wording of my Oath is indeed "...at any cost".

Looks like next session I'll be selling my soul, at least metaphorically and perhaps literally.

Is there any point multiclassing a 12th level Vengeance pally to Warlock? If so, what would be a mechanically interesting way to go about it?

Because this would be a major turning point for my guy as well as a huge part of the game's narrative, I'd probably be able to completely rework the PC if necessary, so I'd also like to see any character level 12 paladin/warlock builds that look fun, weird, or cool.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 07:19

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

AlphaDog posted:

Looks like next session I'll be selling my soul, at least metaphorically and perhaps literally.

What god/pantheon? Or is it the abstract "warrior for good" thing?

# ? Jan 15, 2018 07:26

OutsideAngel: May 4, 2008

AlphaDog posted:

poo poo's gone down over the last 2 sessions and the DM just reminded me via email that, unfortunately for me, the wording of my Oath is indeed "...at any cost".

Looks like next session I'll be selling my soul, at least metaphorically and perhaps literally.

Is there any point multiclassing a 12th level Vengeance pally to Warlock? If so, what would be a mechanically interesting way to go about it?

Because this would be a major turning point for my guy as well as a huge part of the game's narrative, I'd probably be able to completely rework the PC if necessary, so I'd also like to see any character level 12 paladin/warlock builds that look fun, weird, or cool.

L11, L12, and now L13 are all fine breakpoints for Paladin levels. Stopping at 12 loses you flight via Find Greater Steed, but otherwise Paladins don't really get much of anything in the later levels. Meanwhile a few Warlock levels won't mean a whole lot of extra power in your teens, but two skill proficiencies and a good ranged attack will broaden your options quite a bit at least, and your later Paladin levels aren't going to boost your power either.

I'd definitely plan on taking that 13th level of Paladin at some point because flight is just that important, but otherwise just focus on using the Warlock levels to get some extra utility and flexibility.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 07:35

Aschlafly: Jan 5, 2004; I identify as smart.
(But that doesn't make it so...)

evenworse username posted:

I wrote a bunch of . I don't know how useful it is, but I can clarify stuff if it helps.

Great post. I'd be curious to hear how things were different in Italy or other parts of Europe, if you can spare more :words:

# ? Jan 15, 2018 07:54

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

FRINGE posted:

What god/pantheon? Or is it the abstract "warrior for good" thing?

I'm playing a paladin of no gods, no masters. The game's about a revolution, and this group's a bit weird in terms of theme and expectations. Excellent GM though.

OutsideAngel posted:

L11, L12, and now L13 are all fine breakpoints for Paladin levels. Stopping at 12 loses you flight via Find Greater Steed, but otherwise Paladins don't really get much of anything in the later levels. Meanwhile a few Warlock levels won't mean a whole lot of extra power in your teens, but two skill proficiencies and a good ranged attack will broaden your options quite a bit at least, and your later Paladin levels aren't going to boost your power either.

I'd definitely plan on taking that 13th level of Paladin at some point because flight is just that important, but otherwise just focus on using the Warlock levels to get some extra utility and flexibility.

I hadn't thought about Flight. It'd be useful, I guess, but it hasn't really come up yet. I'll talk to the DM about that before I decide to go another level. Yeah, if I don't completely rebuild, I'm mostly going to be looking at utility/flexibility.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 08:21

Slab Squatthrust: Jun 3, 2008; This is mutiny!

AlphaDog posted:

I hadn't thought about Flight. It'd be useful, I guess, but it hasn't really come up yet. I'll talk to the DM about that before I decide to go another level. Yeah, if I don't completely rebuild, I'm mostly going to be looking at utility/flexibility.

Warlock's pretty solid for Paladin at least. Right off the bat with Eldritch Blast you'll get a solid ranged attack, plus bonus spell slots to smite with each short rest at worst. Celestial could be interesting if your paladin breaks down and actually does approach a "god" or some other celestial power, but it's mostly healing focused so thematically I dunno if that would fit for you. Fiend is solid with good bonuses for a melee character, and there's the tried and true Darkness + Devil's Sight invocation combo with a couple Warlock levels.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 08:31

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

AlphaDog posted:

poo poo's gone down over the last 2 sessions and the DM just reminded me via email that, unfortunately for me, the wording of my Oath is indeed "...at any cost".

Looks like next session I'll be selling my soul, at least metaphorically and perhaps literally.

Is there any point multiclassing a 12th level Vengeance pally to Warlock? If so, what would be a mechanically interesting way to go about it?

Because this would be a major turning point for my guy as well as a huge part of the game's narrative, I'd probably be able to completely rework the PC if necessary, so I'd also like to see any character level 12 paladin/warlock builds that look fun, weird, or cool.

Well, first Patrons. Most are 'eeeh' until you get to their 6th level features (which is delving rather deeply for a Paladin), some spell choices that can round you out... and then there's Hexblade, which is amazing. Just one level of Hexblade and you get the Curse, which is excellent and scales. You also get Shield, which is an excellent panic button (level 3 you get Blur!). And of course, you get to use Charisma for weapons, which is huge on a Paladin.

You're allowed to rework your character? Bring STR to 15 and DEX 10 (STR 13/DEX 14 with medium armor is also good) and pump up that Charisma. Without anything else you're able to use the Quarterstaff (or any other lesser one-handed weapon) with CHA, and if you go up to Hexblade 3 for Pact of the Blade you're able to use any weapon with the feature. Any weapon at all.

But what else is there to gain here, if that isn't enough or if you're using some other lesser Patron? Cantrips bringing in that utility and of course, Eldritch Blast. Go up to Warlock 2 and now you've got a solid ranged option with EB+Agonizing Blast (+Hex or Hunter's Mark) which fixes up an issue Paladins sometimes face. Other invocations? Devil's Sight, always solid, others like at-will Silent Image up to taste, and if you go up to 3 and pick Pact of the Tome, you get even more cantrips and can take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. Because rituals are great, especially if no one else in the party can take care of it. And if you're not Hexblade and want to do the CHA to melee trick, Shillelagh.

Oh yeah, and you also get short rest spell slots. If you have 2 short rests per long rest, up to 3 warlock levels are an excellent ROI on the multiclass - each level is giving you essentially an extra 6 smite die per day.

So that's all the obvious stuff out of the way. Tricks? You're a Vengeance Paladin: Warcaster+Booming Blade. Be a total dick with those reaction attacks. Of course, get PAM for even more reaction attacks and because PAM is really loving good on Paladins. What else? You've got a Warlock level or three, so you can attune to some egregiously powerful DMG items like the Robe of the Archmagi (the best case for that DEX 14 suggestion) or the Staff of Power. That thing is hilariously synergistic on a Paladin with this kind of build.

# ? Jan 15, 2018 08:41

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# ? May 15, 2024 19:02

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

AlphaDog posted:

I'm playing a paladin of no gods, no masters. The game's about a revolution, and this group's a bit weird in terms of theme and expectations. Excellent GM though.

Fiend: Sucks you into a deal when youre desperate.
Fey: You made a deal with an extremely chaotic entity to continue your oath to be rid of masters - even though the irony is now choking you.
Hexblade: Generic "I called for help and something answered".
Celestial: "I called for help and something answered that wants to make sure I dont ruin everything".
Old Ones: Probably the whole "dominate" thing is a bad fit.

Im sure you knew all that, but typing it out made me think about it.

Maybe The Raven Queen or The Seeker, depending on your story?
http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock

# ? Jan 15, 2018 08:59

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