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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDzoAN7FsE lmao the trump thread is so mad about her running
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Jan 15, 2018 18:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I'm not asking for full on policy report -- just, like, enough to flesh out an "on the issues" webpage or something so that people can check "hey, what's Manning's position on Medicare for All" without having to trawl back through a year's worth of tweets. Agreed. You know what would be cool? if we could stop arguing about people who haven't even filed or really started to campaign and instead reflected on today celebrating MLK, his legacy, his impact on US Politics and all the work that's left to do. 
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Jan 15, 2018 18:57
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self unaware posted:funny how you frame it as if its the left that are unwilling to compromise I'm talking to the left, and *you* are talking about how you are unwilling to compromise. What am I meant to conclude? In most circumstances I'd describe myself as "on the left" but I understand that on SA, "the left" means waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more left than I'm interested in. The ideal seems to be a cross between the French terror and the Russian revolution, not really what I would like to see. It's hard to compromise between "I'd like to see generous social welfare, gun control and well-funded schools" and "I'd like to see the rich with their heads on pikes and society on fire." There really isn't a whole lot of common ground there.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:57
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whether or not you think chelsea manning is a good person who has a history of good actions is probably the single best litmus test you can give someone who's "in to" politics to determine whether or not they are worth listening to
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Jan 15, 2018 18:57
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Raskolnikov38 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDzoAN7FsE thanks for the report.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:58
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm talking to the left, and *you* are talking about how you are unwilling to compromise. What am I meant to conclude? That you need to join the left or resign yourself to facism. Choose wisely
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Jan 15, 2018 18:58
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm talking to the left, and *you* are talking about how you are unwilling to compromise. What am I meant to conclude? Lmao if you don't want to see rich people's heads paraded around on spikes
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Jan 15, 2018 19:01
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BarbarianElephant posted:I'm talking to the left, and *you* are talking about how you are unwilling to compromise. What am I meant to conclude? the man busily explaining how Chelsea Manning is insufficiently pure for his taste is very confident the left's intransigence is the problem neat self unaware posted:That you need to join the left or resign yourself to facism. this is unfortunately 100% accurate. you have seen what centrist liberalism, given every advantage, and the opponent it most desired to face, resulted in: the presidency of Donald Trump. those are your two options, here. there is not a third.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:01
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GlyphGryph posted:We can, but it's a "we'll do it if we have to" sort of thing. Supporting a candidate based on compatible values is way, way better, because: Yeah, that's a fair argument (and I agreed with it when Steinrokkan posted a similar point before). The problem is that having strong solid values in one area isn't necessarily indicative of strong values in other areas. The classic example here is John McCain, who was a war hero and certainly brave, but also absolute poo poo in his policy positions ninety five percent of the time (and the remaining five percent were mostly stopped clock events where he was right for the wrong reasons). Manning's a great candidate on a lot of issues for precisely the reasons you mention. But there are a lot of public policy issues that don't intersect with her personal history at all (for example, Medicare for All). I can't look at her past history of behavior and demonstrated character and just intuit that she's going to support Medicare for All, a universal basic income, marijuana legalization, or any number of other issues (especially domestic policy issues). That said, as I've said above, I'm not against Manning's candidacy either. I just think it's premature to start throwing other leftists into the "enemy" camp just because they haven't yet been persuaded that Manning is an ideal candidate.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, I'm not asking for full on policy report -- just, like, enough to flesh out an "on the issues" webpage or something so that people can check "hey, what's Manning's position on Medicare for All" without having to trawl back through a year's worth of tweets. No offense but since people have posted tweets about her policy positions the fact that you keep hammering on this smacks of  . Now the fact that she doesnt have a website is bad, but thats an issue of poor campaigning and not 'hasnt said any policy positions'.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:02
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Koalas March posted:You know what would be cool? if we could stop arguing about people who haven't even filed or really started to campaign and instead reflected on today celebrating MLK, his legacy, his impact on US Politics and all the work that's left to do. Do you really want this thread to start arguing about MLK? I've got some genuine doubts as to how well that would go. Personally speaking I think I'm gonna keep my celebrating MLK and his legacy to other environments not based around making GBS threads on other posters... but I guess I could spend the rest of today in those places instead of here. That's actually a pretty good idea.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:03
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self unaware posted:That you need to join the left or resign yourself to facism. That's not really the way history goes. Plenty of societies out there that are neither communist (which is I think what you guys mean by "the left", not Canada or Sweden etc) nor fascist.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:03
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The best timeline is one in which senator Manning reads privileged information into the public record a la Mike Gravel with the pentagon papers. The mass casualties due to republican heads exploding alone will be a net good for the country.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
I feel known posting histories are a relevant factor here.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:04
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GlyphGryph posted:Do you really want this thread to start arguing about MLK? I've got some genuine doubts as to how well that would go. MLK believed in democracy and changing, rather than destroying, society. I'm sure the recommendation of the thread would be the guillotine.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:04
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white sauce posted:Lmao if you don't want to see rich people's heads paraded around on spikes Ummm... no. I don't want to see that, Mr Robespierre. Guilty as charged! Book me a spot on the next purge.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That said, as I've said above, I'm not against Manning's candidacy either. I just think it's premature to start throwing other leftists into the "enemy" camp just because they haven't yet been persuaded that Manning is an ideal candidate. Boon shits all over us every chance he gets, often with a paternalistic backseat modding tone, so it's understandable that you might think he's actually got some good faith concerns about Manning, but trust me, he doesn't, he's just very mad that the left likes her because he hates the left.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:07
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BarbarianElephant posted:MLK believed in democracy and changing, rather than destroying, society. I'm sure the recommendation of the thread would be the guillotine. MLK hated people like btw
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Jan 15, 2018 19:07
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Communist Zombie posted:No offense but since people have posted tweets about her policy positions the fact that you keep hammering on this smacks of I think I've addressed that. Partly it's that this conversation is lagging and there are like twenty new posts happening while I type each one of mine, plus I'm getting attacked for earlier posts I made before those tweets got posted, so some of what I'm saying is in the context of those earlier conversations, etc.. Also as I've said before I think tweets are kinda bullshit inherently. Maybe that makes me an old man but after the past year I'm really loving sick of policy by tweet and I'd be happier if all of twitter died in a fire. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 15, 2018 |
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Jan 15, 2018 19:07
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Can we not start talking about how MLK totally would've supported my side of this internet argument?
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Jan 15, 2018 19:08
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WampaLord posted:Boon shits all over us every chance he gets, often with a paternalistic backseat modding tone, so it's understandable that you might think he's actually got some good faith concerns about Manning, but trust me, he doesn't, he's just very mad that the left likes her because he hates the left. 
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Jan 15, 2018 19:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd be happier if all of twitter died in a fire.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Manning's a great candidate on a lot of issues for precisely the reasons you mention. But there are a lot of public policy issues that don't intersect with her personal history at all (for example, Medicare for All). I can't look at her past history of behavior and demonstrated character and just intuit that she's going to support Medicare for All, a universal basic income, marijuana legalization, or any number of other issues (especially domestic policy issues). How does MFA not intersect with her personal history of homelessness and personal history of an inability to receive medical care? Why is the presumption she doesn't really believe in MFA or Black Lives Matters?
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Jan 15, 2018 19:10
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Twitter is cool cause it lets me connect with other black folks while I am stuck living in poverty surrounded by the whitest people on planet earth in East Nashville
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Jan 15, 2018 19:10
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Do you deny any of that?
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Jan 15, 2018 19:11
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GlyphGryph posted:Do you really want this thread to start arguing about MLK? I've got some genuine doubts as to how well that would go. Ironically the Trump thread and (of course, the lovely, beautiful and unapologetically black) Negrotown are doing just fine. I know USPol has a reputation for being terrible but daaamn. MLK Day should be considered an important day for any activist or leftist ally. It's a perfect topic for this thread. but I mean that would assume more the majority of white 'allies' here actually gave a gently caress. 
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Jan 15, 2018 19:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem is that having strong solid values in one area isn't necessarily indicative of strong values in other areas. The classic example here is John McCain, who was a war hero and certainly brave, but also absolute poo poo in his policy positions ninety five percent of the time (and the remaining five percent were mostly stopped clock events where he was right for the wrong reasons). Manning put herself at risk and (arguably) broke the law to Do the Right Thing, which not only went against her job but also showed strong moral/ethical values. McCain was just doing his job, he did it very well and was permently disabled by it but that doesnt say anything about how strong his morals or ethics are. Doug Jones would be a better example, a civil rights lawyer in Alabama during the sixties yet didnt campaign abouy that for fear of driving away 'white moderates' and said hed be willing to work with republicans on the budget.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:12
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Trabisnikof posted:How does MFA not intersect with her personal history of homelessness and personal history of an inability to receive medical care? Because she hasn't taken public stands? I know what her position on government accountability is because of her actions. You can't infer that someone supports UBI just because they've been homeless. quote:Why is the presumption she doesn't really believe in MFA or Black Lives Matters? I don't think anything I've said even implies either of those presumptions; I certainly never intended any such implication or presumption.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:12
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Fluffdaddy posted:Twitter is cool cause it lets me connect with other black folks while I am stuck living in poverty surrounded by the whitest people on planet earth in East Nashville same except the border of Detroit/whitesville
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Jan 15, 2018 19:12
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Trabisnikof posted:How does MFA not intersect with her personal history of homelessness and personal history of an inability to receive medical care? experiencing hardships doesn't always make someone a champion of ending those hardships for everyone. Not saying this is the case with her, mind you.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think I've addressed that. That is totally fair yea.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:13
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sirtommygunn posted:Can we not start talking about how MLK totally would've supported my side of this internet argument? If MLK was a revolutionary communist, he'd have been a revolutionary communist in 1960, as well. That's not saying "MLK agrees with me." That's just reading his Wikipedia page to know that he wasn't a revolutionary communist.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:13
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GlyphGryph posted:Do you really want this thread to start arguing about MLK? I've got some genuine doubts as to how well that would go. man grasped the principles of good cop/bad cop, which was why the white moderate proudly proclaimed him someone who wanted society on fire and all the heads of white people on pikes, who needed to be shunned at all costs. consider the wisdom of William F. Buckley, explaining how because King preached civil disobedience, he probably had getting shot coming. there is a lesson in there for all of us. particularly in how blatantly the same people who proclaimed him a monster and an enemy suddenly were okay with him all along, once he was safely dead and incapable of disrupting their precious norms any longer.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:14
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I'm excited for Manning because I know where stands since I've followed her on twitter for awhile. Maybe Debbie Wilson is good, but I know nothing about her. Either way I cant vote in MD. I just get to watch Steve King coast to another victory.  Koalas March posted:"For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." This lady seems cool. I'll check her out.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:14
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Fluffdaddy posted:experiencing hardships doesn't always make someone a champion of ending those hardships for everyone. Not saying this is the case with her, mind you. In absolute fairness, yeah, this can't be stressed enough. There's no shortage of people who escaped terrible conditions with the mindset of "I'm never living like that again" versus one of "No one should have to live like that."
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Jan 15, 2018 19:15
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Koalas March posted:Ironically the Trump thread and (of course, the lovely, beautiful and unapologetically black) Negrotown are doing just fine. I know USPol has a reputation for being terrible but daaamn. MLK Day should be considered an important day for any activist or leftist ally. It's a perfect topic for this thread. I like Malcolm X more than MLK 
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Jan 15, 2018 19:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Because she hasn't taken public stands? I know what her position on government accountability is because of her actions. You can't infer that someone supports UBI just because they've been homeless. She has taken a public stand in favor of MFA but you've declared you don't like it because: 1. It was on twitter and twitter is bad. 2. She said it before she declared and thus wasn't trying to score political points, this is somehow bad. 3. You can't believe her because her personal experiences aren't convincing enough for you sounds like you're just coming up with excuses at this point
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Jan 15, 2018 19:16
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Oh Snapple! posted:In absolute fairness, yeah, this can't be stressed enough. see also the angle of one Richard Dawkins, Supergenius, proclaiming "oh come on, I got over being molested as a child, why can't everyone"
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Jan 15, 2018 19:17
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white sauce posted:I like Malcolm X more than MLK Malcolm X deserves a federal holiday, I agree.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:18
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white sauce posted:I like Malcolm X more than MLK Black people aren't in a competition for your likes and dislikes
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Jan 15, 2018 19:18
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