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He gives tears to the dead. Powerful stuff. Jamis is a friend of mine. Jamis is my friend! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8 e: sigh this cruddy video at the top of the thread. I fall on my crysknife
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Jan 15, 2018 22:17
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basic hitler posted:he was just a dude who wrote brilliant insightful scifi and measuring men's quality by their politics is incredibly dumb. While I agree with you for the most part, I will say that as a trans gay woman it can sometimes be hard to separate the author from the work when the author is the kind of person who'd like to see me dead. In Herbert's case I think he just had old timey views on women and sex combined with some serious brain syphilis so it never ruined Dune for me, but there's other sci-fi authors who obviously view people like me as subhuman and I can't read them.
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Jan 16, 2018 00:50
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basic hitler posted:he was just a dude who wrote brilliant insightful scifi and measuring men's quality by their politics is incredibly dumb. Post this in almost any other thread and live the rest of your life... in a pain amplifier!
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Jan 16, 2018 00:55
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Agreed, the sexual stuff about Baron Harkonen and Feyed Rautha seems gratuitous and stands out because in Dune, the maligned and downtrodden are the heroes, except when it comes to non-traditional non hetero sex. I think there is even some hinting that the spice orgies allow women to gently caress each other, but I might be wrong about that.
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Jan 16, 2018 00:57
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cis autodrag posted:While I agree with you for the most part, I will say that as a trans gay woman it can sometimes be hard to separate the author from the work when the author is the kind of person who'd like to see me dead. In Herbert's case I think he just had old timey views on women and sex combined with some serious brain syphilis so it never ruined Dune for me, but there's other sci-fi authors who obviously view people like me as subhuman and I can't read them. Yeah, Herbert is no where near the worst of the genre or time even if he's not perfect. Certainly doesn't hurt to discuss it or give people a heads up.
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Jan 16, 2018 00:59
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah, Herbert is no where near the worst of the genre or time even if he's not perfect. Certainly doesn't hurt to discuss it or give people a heads up. Agree. It's possible to discuss flaws like this without throwing away the work and I think people miss that point sometimes, especially when the work is dear to them.
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Jan 16, 2018 01:05
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my deal is that i'm gonna write an epic sci-fi book / series that will rip off dune, but will rip it off by overturning its philosophical assumptions in the same way that herbert did it to asimov's foundation trilogy. it's what herbert would've wanted. i'm not even sure what herbert was wrong about, like philosophically. all i know is that i'm going to destroy him.
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Jan 16, 2018 01:20
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oh i know what the deal is. "the universe cannot be rationally managed." like hell it can't.
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Jan 16, 2018 01:32
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the bene gesserit were right and jessica should've given birth to a daughter to seal the breach. her own selfishness destroyed the galaxy and ushered in thousands of years of worm-god tyranny. because leto wanted a son? what difference does it make? because a son would've allowed him to make a bid for power? so spare me the moral posturing you "oh so noble" nimrods in house atreides. they had slaves too; they just treated them "nice" which makes them actually worse. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 01:35
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Her selfishness averted humanity's eventual destruction through stagnation, too.
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Jan 16, 2018 05:24
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:because leto wanted a son? what difference does it make? because a son would've allowed him to make a bid for power? so spare me the moral posturing you "oh so noble" nimrods in house atreides. they had slaves too; they just treated them "nice" which makes them actually worse. Harkonnen account spotted.
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Jan 16, 2018 05:39
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cis autodrag posted:While I agree with you for the most part, I will say that as a trans gay woman it can sometimes be hard to separate the author from the work when the author is the kind of person who'd like to see me dead. In Herbert's case I think he just had old timey views on women and sex combined with some serious brain syphilis so it never ruined Dune for me, but there's other sci-fi authors who obviously view people like me as subhuman and I can't read them. I go sideways and start skimming when anything weird about sex shows up in Dune, i don't want to even exclude discussion of that side of things, but nobody should be writing off frank herbert, and i've seen people who act absolutely detestable when you get them sitting down and talking do absolutely incredibly undeniably good things blindly and without regard to who they're helping. I don't think most people who say and think absolutely retarded poo poo are iredeemable for it because I've seen better. You've probably been helped by people you'd get really mad at if you talked to them at length about politics or LGBT issues. This life is fundamentally dirty, unjust, and good people are in it together even when genetics, environment, and upbringing scramble who we all are in completely unpredictible ways. I regret launching into this in dune thread but i just measure people by how they act when they're least in control, high pressure or uncommon situations. As far as im concerned most people are poo poo when idle And many people ive suspected of being terrible being pretty drat good when their adrenaline is running. I cant really qualify people when i dont know what they do except talk about politics. Riot Bimbo fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 05:39
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phasmid posted:Harkonnen account spotted. 
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Jan 16, 2018 06:12
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i'm going to squeeze the life out of frank herbert... and the dune thread! squeeze... squeeze... and SQUEEEEZE. 
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Jan 16, 2018 06:14
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is that a maker or are you just happy to see me
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Jan 16, 2018 06:28
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basic hitler posted:I go sideways and start skimming when anything weird about sex shows up in Dune, i don't want to even exclude discussion of that side of things, but nobody should be writing off frank herbert, and i've seen people who act absolutely detestable when you get them sitting down and talking do absolutely incredibly undeniably good things blindly and without regard to who they're helping. I don't think most people who say and think absolutely retarded poo poo are iredeemable for it because I've seen better. You've probably been helped by people you'd get really mad at if you talked to them at length about politics or LGBT issues. This life is fundamentally dirty, unjust, and good people are in it together even when genetics, environment, and upbringing scramble who we all are in completely unpredictible ways. Holy poo poo if you're that offended then just leave the thread
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Jan 16, 2018 06:41
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Improbable Lobster posted:Holy poo poo if you're that offended then just leave the thread i'm not offended, just talking man
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Jan 16, 2018 06:43
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the posts must flow
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Jan 16, 2018 06:54
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can woman be made into sex slaves in the duniverse? or is it just men?
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Jan 16, 2018 06:57
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basic hitler posted:i'm not offended, just talking man I'd rather you didn't since your last post is complete word salad
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Jan 16, 2018 06:57
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Improbable Lobster posted:I'd rather you didn't since your last post is complete word salad I can read it. Its a bad post though. It exists and i cant undo it.
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Jan 16, 2018 07:03
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Improbable Lobster posted:I'd rather you didn't since your last post is complete word salad His name is a baffling word
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Jan 16, 2018 07:04
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it is by posts alone I set my mind in motion
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Jan 16, 2018 07:10
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it is by the mountain dew and cheetos that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains the stains become a warning
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Jan 16, 2018 07:12
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basic hitler was my friend. When nobody responded to me, he quoted me. When our posting ran low at the seige of two gurfs, he shared his. I was a friend of hitler. I take his shitposts. Leaders right
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Jan 16, 2018 07:16
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That was a literal poo poo post so my attention was divided between what i wanted to say and the demon rock i was passing and i must applogize for tha post born of a divided mind
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Jan 16, 2018 07:20
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i am reading the book dune by frank herbert and enjoying it even if he uses the passive voice
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Jan 16, 2018 07:23
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Holy poo poo the last few posts 
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Jan 16, 2018 07:25
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Shai hulud has become shaitan
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Jan 16, 2018 07:31
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Alright so I'm really confused about how multiple people have talked about The Jesus Incident but no one has mentioned Destination: Void, the much more compact and tightly written (and not coauthored) Herbert book that preceded it and set up the whole subsequent trilogy.
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Jan 16, 2018 10:23
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My dad had jesus incident on the bookshelf. That's basically it.
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Jan 16, 2018 10:26
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Fair. I think I found them because I lived in used bookstores / the library as a child, and had been introduced to Dune already.
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Jan 16, 2018 10:37
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The jesus incident is also the genesis of sid meiers alpha centauri if that gets anyone going off the sandy path
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Jan 16, 2018 10:39
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BONGHITZ posted:can woman be made into sex slaves in the duniverse? or is it just men? At this point I could be conflating it with the Brian Herbert/KJA books, but iirc Duncan's nth ghola awakens to all of the past memories of all his past lives and becomes a Kwisatz Haderach, due to one of the Reverend Mothers blowing his mind with sex enslavement, and he then does the sex slave thing to her so they're mutually enslaved to each other.
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Jan 16, 2018 14:13
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:At this point I could be conflating it with the Brian Herbert/KJA books, but iirc Duncan's nth ghola awakens to all of the past memories of all his past lives and becomes a Kwisatz Haderach, due to one of the Reverend Mothers blowing his mind with sex enslavement, and he then does the sex slave thing to her so they're mutually enslaved to each other. This sounds inanely like what heretics is going for as its endgame and my dad used to say duncan idaho was the real kwizatz way before brian and kja which threw me because lynch dune was my baseline where idaho features for a solid minute in a 2hr film
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Jan 16, 2018 14:34
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Right now a grown rear end woman is grooming a teenage duncan idaho ghola to love her and preparing herself mentally for sceewing a kid and so ive checked out nearly completely. This later stuff is okay when its not bad. Buuut... Honored matres and bene gesserit basically differ how republicans and democrats differ and the bene gesserit methods of sexual imprinting are slightly more high minded than the basely worship driven honored matres. Theyre both out to gently caress for control the bene gesserit are just dogged by let ii's path as a reminder of their moral purposes Frank got really loving horny late in life and he's ruining the bene gesserit in the process. I might stop before chapterhouse again since im remembering why i put heretics down. Its.... Heretical.
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Jan 16, 2018 14:40
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IIRC the last few books seem to involve talk of incest and child molestation. Teenage me was blown away that I could check this out of my public library.
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Jan 16, 2018 14:56
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:At this point I could be conflating it with the Brian Herbert/KJA books, but iirc Duncan's nth ghola awakens to all of the past memories of all his past lives and becomes a Kwisatz Haderach, due to one of the Reverend Mothers blowing his mind with sex enslavement, and he then does the sex slave thing to her so they're mutually enslaved to each other. It's been a long time since I read the original books, but the process of awakening gholas to all their past lives was introduced by Frank and he was probably angling to have Duncan be a second Kwisatz Haderach, but it was Brian and KJA that bumbled their way through it. I absolutely do not recommend reading the BH/KJA books, but I do recommend reading the wiki synopsis of their "sequels" to the original series because you get poo poo like the Dune All Star Battle Royale and a good Paul Atreides ghola fighting an evil Paul Atreides ghola and the machines from the lovely prequels show back up and it really sounds like a terrible fever dream.
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Jan 16, 2018 16:33
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The evil Paul is called Paolo lol
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Jan 16, 2018 16:37
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basic hitler posted:I would disagree only because I just can only infer from his dune books a vague cold-war era conservative strain of thinking that nobody born on or around 1989 would understand or recognize in the western world that i would hesitate to call libertarian Still catching up but I'd argue that while Herbert reminds me of the earliest strains of conservatism, ala John "Mountain Baptism" Muir, Herbert also says stuff like this (pulled from God Emperor, his most political book): quote:“Police are inevitably corrupted. ... Police always observe that criminals prosper. It takes a pretty dull policeman to miss the fact that the position of authority is the most prosperous criminal position available.” quote:“Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change” quote:“Right from the first, the little people who formed the governments which promised to equalize the social burdens found themselves suddenly in the hands of bureaucratic aristocracies. Of course, all bureaucracies follow this pattern, but what a hypocrisy to find this even under a communized banner. Ahhh, well, if patterns teach me anything it’s that patterns are repeated.” It's as libertarian as you can get, albeit a cold gimlet eye'd version of it that unlike its modern version which has a very dim view of individuals. Before the Wall fell, environmentalism was an issue important to both liberals and conservatives, here's the abstract to a paper showing how the lack of a Soviet Union polarized the right wing against environmental groups as the next boogey man: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X1400132X?via%3Dihub I agree about Herbert harkening back to a strain of politics that definitely is hard to find today though.
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