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The Fitz and McCain CO's have been brought up on homicide charges: http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/politics/ex-navy-commanders-criminal-charges-collisions/index.html
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Jan 17, 2018 02:04
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DustyNuts posted:The Fitz and McCain CO's have been brought up on homicide charges: Can't wait for Two Scoops to weigh in on the trials, because he is clinically incapable of keeping his yap shut, causing a mistrial by dint of undue influence from the commander-in-chief.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:12
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DustyNuts posted:The Fitz and McCain CO's have been brought up on homicide charges: Holy poo poo.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:37
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DustyNuts posted:The Fitz and McCain CO's have been brought up on homicide charges: Good.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:40
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Sounds like members of the bridge crew are getting charged too.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:42
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Can't really say I'm a fan of criminalizing what should amount to a (gigantic) professional mistake. That being said if there was negligence, gently caress them.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:59
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I think there are good Chiefs and notionally understand that there could be good chiefs messes but to me the biggest issue that culture brings is that it robs the Navy of the tech expertise the other branches have. I have only dealt with IS and CT types but it seems like having a technically proficient e7 or e8 is the exception rather than the rule. It really sucks for the IS’s because they usually shunt back and forth between NECs because billeting is broken so by the time they show up to their Imagery coded billet as a chief they haven’t actually touched an ELT since they were an e4 right out of “C” school. Then you also have to take into account all of the e6s who slide off the watchbills so they can take on 50 collaterals to look good for board. That then forces a few e5s to eat the technical supervisor roles the e6s bailed on. You end up leaving an increasingly smaller window for sailors to actually do what we trained them for. Some of the technical proficiency should come from our warrant community but that is uhhh uneven at best.
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Jan 17, 2018 05:10
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DustyNuts posted:The Fitz and McCain CO's have been brought up on homicide charges: While this wasn't unexpected, it still hurts in a lot of ways. I talked to one of the other officers from the ship (not one being charged) and both of us are just trying to process this more then anything. Admiral Rowden getting the boot shocked me more than anything. He wants to fix the problems with the surface fleet, and after already deciding to retire early, the Navy even took that from him. I doubt that anything good will actually come of what happened to us now. But hey! According to Admiral Davidson, we just need to learn how to work better when we're fatigued, right? That will fix all of our problems.
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Jan 17, 2018 05:41
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The Valley Stared posted:But hey! According to Admiral Davidson, we just need to learn how to work better when we're fatigued, right? That will fix all of our problems. And if junior officers could just get off their asses and innovate, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. No, not like that. Not that either. Look, just... generate solutions, okay? Do I have to spell it out for you? I forget where exactly I heard that in the last six months, but it was definitely one of the lines that stuck with me. On a more serious note, that goes completely counter to the notion of "maybe aviation has some ideas that we could learn from" that has been batted around by various admirals. For example: every four years, every aviator has to get refresher training on aviation physiology and survival procedures. Now, while a SWO doesn't necessarily need to know how to execute a parachute landing or the warning signs of hypoxia, the training has a lot of good information on all kinds of physiological hazards. Not just fatigue, but things like optical illusions, nutrition, and complacency. I have to imagine a lot of that would apply just as equally to driving a ship. The data's all there, it just needs leaders willing to accept reality.
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Jan 17, 2018 06:59
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The Valley Stared posted:While this wasn't unexpected, it still hurts in a lot of ways. I talked to one of the other officers from the ship (not one being charged) and both of us are just trying to process this more then anything. How was this not unexpected? Was there talk of charges during the investigation or something? I’m really rather surprised that you weren’t surprised by this. What’s your opinion on the charges, out of curiosity?
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Jan 17, 2018 08:07
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McCain skipper is culpable 100% for his hubris. Fitz skip hosed up in that he didn’t do a good enough job training his people. He’s in the wrong but more so in a “the buck stops here” kindof wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the fitz skipper walks but JSM’s captain is hosed.
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Jan 17, 2018 14:27
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:How was this not unexpected? Was there talk of charges during the investigation or something? I’m really rather surprised that you weren’t surprised by this. For the JOs, it's the roles they played during the collision. I feel incredibly bad for one of them and feel that they were completely hosed over. For the other two, I feel that the charges are valid. Again, I can't go more into detail as that would reveal more about these individuals, and that wouldn't be good. As for the CO, Mr. Nice! is correct. As much as I didn't want to see this happen to him given what he went through, we knew that it was a possibility because he's the CO. The Navy gives these COs a huge amount of responsibility, takes away much of the agency that COs once had, doesn't give them the resources they need, and then tells them to go do a mission that they might not be ready for. Admiral Rowden was all about getting a pipeline ready for new SWOs that was closer to the Aviation one. (He said he didn't want to use that phrase, but that it was the only one he could think of.) I know that in Newport they were testing it out in baby steps, and hopefully it will continue.
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Jan 17, 2018 15:49
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Feel solace in this, TVS. Just because they’re charged doesn’t mean they’ll be convicted.
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Jan 17, 2018 15:56
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I don’t understand how the COis responsible for training. Maybe it’s because i’ve never been aboard a small boy but if a PQS comes his way that everyone else in a sailor’s CoC has signed off on, why would he have a reason to not sign it? Also why are the admirals who were no where near the ships being punished? I don’t understand big navy at all.
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Jan 17, 2018 17:24
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Anita Dickinme posted:I don’t understand how the COis responsible for training. Maybe it’s because i’ve never been aboard a small boy but if a PQS comes his way that everyone else in a sailor’s CoC has signed off on, why would he have a reason to not sign it? Also why are the admirals who were no where near the ships being punished? I don’t understand big navy at all. The answer is pretty much the same for both questions. They set the standard. The reason for "why would he have a reason to not sign it?" is basically THIS situation. Because HE is ultimately responsible to ensure proper training, that's why his signature is required in the first place. The actual duties may be delegated, but the responsibility is not. If he's willing to sign it, it means that he has determined that sufficient training has taken place. Whether he actually saw it or not is irrelevant; he's saying it happened and that it was good enough. Going higher up the chain of command, the answer is basically the same. Leadership owns the success or failure because they determine what is acceptable. In this case, trends were accepted that led to the negligent and perfectly preventable deaths of 17 sailors. Edit: Bolded for something a lot of people don't really realize.
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Jan 17, 2018 17:33
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Anita Dickinme posted:I don’t understand how the COis responsible for training. Maybe it’s because i’ve never been aboard a small boy but if a PQS comes his way that everyone else in a sailor’s CoC has signed off on, why would he have a reason to not sign it? Also why are the admirals who were no where near the ships being punished? I don’t understand big navy at all. OOD underway is a monstrous qualification that ends with a board chaired by the skipper himself before he signs off on it. Same for most other major qualifications. The captain isn’t just bottom lining. He’a actually sat down with this person and personally given them the go ahead. Ships at sea are effectively autonomous little fiefdoms where the captain wields extraordinary power but is also 100% accountable for anything that happens. Admirals are being punished because captains in the 7th fleet have been saying for 10+ years that they were undermanned and overtasked and it was inevitable that catastrophe would occur.
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Jan 17, 2018 17:49
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you can tell how hosed we really are because rather than higher ups being punished as the norm, we're now honestly surprised by it
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Jan 17, 2018 17:51
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Anita Dickinme posted:I don’t understand how the COis responsible for training. Maybe it’s because i’ve never been aboard a small boy but if a PQS comes his way that everyone else in a sailor’s CoC has signed off on, why would he have a reason to not sign it? Also why are the admirals who were no where near the ships being punished? I don’t understand big navy at all. This is more organizational behavior than just strictly big navy. When developing organizational structure you need clear lines of authority and responsibility. You can wholly delegate authority, give people below the ability to make decisions without needing to ask, but by doing so you retain responsibility for making that decision. You can never wholly absolve yourself of responsibility by passing it down, only up. Each manager/officer/whatever creates a culture in the people around and below them. It's easy to say "That guy's a dick he makes us do everything by the book and won't let us cut these corners even though they are nonsense" when if you aren't retaining that responsibility, when you don't sit in that chair. Setting or not setting certain expectations and standards for how things are done, how much freedom people have etc is all part of this. It's also the responsibility of those with authority to provide an environment in which people can do their jobs safely. If command does not provide training, personnel, equipment or whatever and people die because of it, they are responsible. That's a really rough call though. Navy wants to make an example of someone it by treating the symptoms with a sledgehammer and probably missing out on bigger picture lessons but I really have no idea how I would start looking at this. I'm really glad it's not me making the decisions. On ships, the captain is responsible for everything as he is the one person that noone can countermand. On a merchant ship, he signs a log saying all my sludge transfers were wonderful, we didn't put any oil over the side and disposed of it properly even though he has probably never even looked at the system and has no idea what I did. lightpole fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 17, 2018 |
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Jan 17, 2018 17:52
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Mr. Nice! posted:OOD underway is a monstrous qualification that ends with a board chaired by the skipper himself before he signs off on it. Same for most other major qualifications. The captain isn’t just bottom lining. He’a actually sat down with this person and personally given them the go ahead. In my case, after all of my PQS had been signed but before my board, I had to do a walkthrough of the ship with each Department Head and would be quizzed about various elements in their spaces (I got loving destroyed by our OPS in CIC - goddamn ASTAC and LINK equipment). Once that was done, the CO took me on a 3.5-hour walkthrough of the entire ship (CG) that got into some reaaaaaaal granular detail in some real obscure places. Once he was satisfied, I could schedule a board. Boon fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 17, 2018 |
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Jan 17, 2018 18:13
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Proud Christian Mom posted:you can tell how hosed we really are because rather than higher ups being punished as the norm, we're now honestly surprised by it the navy is the only branch that will go after officers that gently caress up. the army would shuffle them into a desk job and never say another word of it.
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Jan 17, 2018 19:06
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I’m sure most of us SWOs went through a similar kind of ringer for swo and ood just because of how much the captain puts on the line by signing their name on the bottom. Serious quals - OOD UW, EOOW, TAO, etc on each ship are matters that usually require the current captain’s signature (meaning some sort of requal even if it is just a brief sitdown). That’s what we mean the captain is responsible for training. Besides the standard buck stops here responsibility, the watchstations that have actual CO delegation are directly bottomlined by him.
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Jan 17, 2018 19:12
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I got my OOD/SWO quals in under a year with several months of it in drydock. Why so fast? My dumbass XO forgot that I arrived after deployment and scheduled my boards along with everyone who did deploy. I didn't say a word and passed.
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Jan 17, 2018 22:27
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:the navy is the only branch that will go after officers that gently caress up. the army would shuffle them into a desk job and never say another word of it. The AF would promote them. As long as the wing passes its ORI, of course.
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Jan 18, 2018 01:05
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Evil SpongeBob posted:I got my OOD/SWO quals in under a year with several months of it in drydock. Why so fast? My dumbass XO forgot that I arrived after deployment and scheduled my boards along with everyone who did deploy. I didn't say a word and passed. A true SWO.
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Jan 18, 2018 02:04
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Alison Krauss's board advice still rings true: you say it best when you say nothing at all. Also wasn't one of the COs at the wheel for less than a month? I think if it's Fitz, that'll be a tough conviction.
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Jan 18, 2018 03:19
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piL posted:Also wasn't one of the COs at the wheel for less than a month? I think if it's Fitz, that'll be a tough conviction. Yeah, it was FITZ. I went to his change of command. He was only in the seat for a few weeks but he also had a full ride as XO too.
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Jan 18, 2018 03:49
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Man the navy is weird. CO for a month, asleep in the bunk, get negligent homicide charges, take responsibility for systemic naval staffing and mission problems. I'm gonna guess its hard to get volunteers to captain a ship?
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Jan 18, 2018 03:57
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Goodpancakes posted:Man the navy is weird. CO for a month, asleep in the bunk, get negligent homicide charges, take responsibility for systemic naval staffing and mission problems. I'm gonna guess its hard to get volunteers to captain a ship? Nah, there is literally nothing else a career SWO can hope for.
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Jan 18, 2018 03:58
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They line up and stab others in the back as often as possible for the opportunity to drive a ship.
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Jan 18, 2018 05:27
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Nah they have to give people $125k and a free masters to even do the rung below command.
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Jan 18, 2018 05:37
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Mr. Nice! posted:Nah they have to give people $125k and a free masters to even do the rung below command. Can you get a good master's out of it?
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Jan 18, 2018 06:44
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shovelbum posted:Can you get a good master's out of it? You can get basically anything you want. The only people that tend to stick around always get MBAs or foreign policy type masters from NPS, but generally speaking you aren’t limited.
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Jan 18, 2018 06:59
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7th Fleet SWO on vacation... https://gfycat.com/VapidBruisedBarbet
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Jan 18, 2018 07:52
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ManMythLegend posted:Yeah, it was FITZ. I went to his change of command. He was only in the seat for a few weeks but he also had a full ride as XO too. I suppose he had a hand in training then. Re: Why the hell be a CO-I'm fairly certain the Navy pays you less for being a Commanding Officer than for knowing Russian.
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Jan 18, 2018 15:13
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piL posted:I suppose he had a hand in training then. What if you're a CO who knows Russian?
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Jan 18, 2018 20:10
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Hot off the digital presses of Proceedings Today (https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2018-01/negligent-homicides-bridge-too-far) My tl;dr version: Too many people to blame beside the COs so, just let everyone retire quote:Negligent Homicides: A Bridge Too Far
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Jan 18, 2018 23:15
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I'm too tipsy to really want to put in the effort of writing an effort post about the whole mess but what I will say is that the Navy in general, and surface community specifically, are reaping what was sown decades ago when operational command and man, train and equip decisions were separated.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:48
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ManMythLegend posted:I'm too tipsy to really want to put in the effort of writing an effort post about the whole mess but what I will say is that the Navy in general, and surface community specifically, are reaping what was sown decades ago when operational command and man, train and equip decisions were separated. Couple drinks in too. Concur.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:01
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I dunno how I feel about criminally charging officers for something short of deliberate misconduct, but if the standard of proof is that a "reasonably careful person" would have acted differently, I'm pretty sure I could go ask any random ET3 if he thought we should station the maneuvering watch for transiting the SOM and/or possibly look out the starboard side of the bridge occasionally and that 19 year old would probably make better decisions than those officers did. I will also say that OODs ignoring COSOs isn't exactly exculpatory w/r/t the CO's responsibility for the collision. "I didn't know that we were going to be close to other ships (in some of the busiest shipping waters in the world) because the officers that I train and certify like to ignore my orders. My bad."
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Jan 19, 2018 02:20
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I wonder also if perhaps there was a nadir of talent going in during the 90s and now those people are the COs. I base that solely on the basis that they let me through.
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Jan 19, 2018 05:16
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