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Baronjutter posted:Don't forget the Rick Berman quote about how Tom Paris was such a great character because FINALLY there was an attractive white man front and centre in trek. With the amount of public gushing over Patrick Stewart, I'd imagine this was targeted at DS9 in particular. EDIT - While GISing for that TV Guide cover: 
After The War fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 14:31
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Baronjutter posted:Don't forget the Rick Berman quote about how Tom Paris was such a great character because FINALLY there was an attractive white man front and centre in trek. Oh Rick. Where can I see this quote, I'm curious to know what on Earth possessed him to say that.
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Jan 16, 2018 15:45
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I was watching ST3 for the umpteenth time the other day, and noticed two things that I've somehow managed to never notice before. 1: There's no music during the entire Kirk/Kruuge fight scene until Kruuge starts falling. 2: Immediately after the fight, Kirk climbs half-way up the little embankement, turns around, and looks across the volcanic hellscape Genesis is becoming. He makes his way to Spock, while shots of fire and things bursting into flame surround him. He rolls Spock over, and sees that Spock has aged to where he was before he died. Amid more shots of bursting flames, geological upheaval, he gets Maltz to beam them up, and they fly away while the planet explodes. In other words, as soon as Spock was done fully physically re-becoming Spock, the planet was destroyed by extreme Vulcanism. 
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Jan 16, 2018 16:44
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Dirty posted:Oh Rick. Where can I see this quote, I'm curious to know what on Earth possessed him to say that. Rick Berman "It had been a while since we had a young, attractive white guy on the show. It just turns out that most of the characters were alien or black in the previous show."
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Jan 16, 2018 17:18
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Baronjutter posted:Rick Berman What is it about Ricks?
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Jan 16, 2018 17:30
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Peachfart posted:What is it about Ricks? Driven insane with loathing for a lifetime of people referring to them as Dick
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Jan 16, 2018 17:48
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What did Odo do with the dog he impersonated in Little Green Men???
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Jan 16, 2018 23:01
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Also, I started out pretty leery of Discovery, but it's grown on me. I was worried that maybe the Mirror Universe stuff wouldn't work too well, because they haven't earned the right to do a MU story yet, but I'm digging it, and I hope they're there for the entire back half of the season. I also wonder if they're going to come out of it, thinking 'poo poo, we just fought a huge war, then went to a mirror universe where 'Discovery' is a conquering warship. There but for the grace of the Prime Directive go I, time to retool Star Fleet a bit.' But I think they missed a major opportunity to have a different OP for the MU episdodes, ENT style. I also think they could have set Discovery, pretty much as is, post-Voyager perfectly happily. "A faction of the Klingon Empire, long marginalized and ignored, is now striking a chord in many Klingons; young Klingons who have grown up on idealized tales of Glory and Honor in battle, and feel that they're missing out on an essential part of their heritage in these peaceful days of alliance, and the Empire having not fought a major conflict since the Dominion War, a generation past, as well as old, hardline Klingons who have seen their personal power wane. When m'Ac-Guffin, the aged leader of this religious sect, dies, young firebrand T'Kuvma seizes the opportunity to turn the teachings of Kahless to formenting a wave of religious revivalism, which is eagerly taken up by the young hotheads seeking glory, and almost immediately subverted by the old reactionaries seeing this as an opportunity to reassert the personal power they once wielded. When T'Kuvma is killed, blame is immediately placed on Star Fleet, who throws officer Michael Burnham to the metaphorical wolves, in an attempt to appease Klingon sensibilities. This backfires, as the new Path of Kahless uses this 'admission of guilt' and 'Federation treachery' to fan the flames of nationalism into jingoism, cultural pride into reactionary withdrawl, and a (surprisingly unfounded) fear of seeing the "Klingon" culture and way of life disappear into what they see as the bland homogeneity of the Federation into a call for return to 'old ways' that never really existed outside of the minds of young Klingaboos raised in Russia. In an uncharted region of space, the Path of Kahless readies a fleet of ships equipped with a new technology, brought from Imperial labs by the faithful, which they will use to start a war the Empire cannot ignore, and the Federation cannot talk their way out of. Meanwhile, the USS Discovery, on a survey and exploration mission of the region, is about to stumble upon them..... Or something. Oh, and I saw some mention earlier that sending Burnham to 'hard time' wasn't very Federationy; well, the Enterprise certainly visited a lot of penal colonies during it's voyage back in TOS, including one that was developing a mind-control device and testing it on inmates. Which was considered a good idea until somebody figured out that the dial went up to 11......
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Jan 16, 2018 23:24
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TheCenturion posted:Oh, and I saw some mention earlier that sending Burnham to 'hard time' wasn't very Federationy; well, the Enterprise certainly visited a lot of penal colonies during it's voyage back in TOS, including one that was developing a mind-control device and testing it on inmates. Which was considered a good idea until somebody figured out that the dial went up to 11...... Tom Paris origin story is being hauled out a federation penal colony to help Janeway on whatever their original mission was, so it's not like people going to jail hasn't been well established over several of the series. I imagine they're more into rehabilitation than punishment, but no matter how utopian things get, people are still gonna commit crimes or treason every now and again
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Jan 16, 2018 23:30
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Bohemian Nights posted:Tom Paris origin story is being hauled out a federation penal colony to help Janeway on whatever their original mission was, so it's not like people going to jail hasn't been well established over several of the series. I imagine they're more into rehabilitation than punishment, but no matter how utopian things get, people are still gonna commit crimes or treason every now and again Bashir's parents were also sentenced to two years in a stockade in New Zealand. I imagine it's something like a labor camp - under strict supervision, spend two years growing vegetables and attending rehab classes and whatnot.
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Jan 16, 2018 23:44
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Cythereal posted:Bashir's parents were also sentenced to two years in a stockade in New Zealand. I imagine it's something like a labor camp - under strict supervision, spend two years growing vegetables and attending rehab classes and whatnot. I like to imagine they turned all of New Zealand into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast%C3%B8y_Prison "Once a prison colony for young boys, the facility is trying to become "the first ecological prison in the world".[2] Reoffending rates have been reported at 16%, compared to a European average of around 70%.[4] Inmates are housed in wooden cottages and work the prison farm.[5] During their free time, inmates have access to horseback riding, fishing, tennis, and cross-country skiing"
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Jan 16, 2018 23:51
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It would be the most hilarious karma to turn the island(s) whose primary source of pride is "not being the penal island" into a penal island.
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Jan 17, 2018 00:16
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Zurui posted:It would be the most hilarious karma to turn the island(s) whose primary source of pride is "not being the penal island" into a penal island. Well it's not like the other one exists in the late 21st century if First Contact is anything to go by.
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Jan 17, 2018 00:50
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I still don't understand how you gently caress up that big.
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Jan 17, 2018 01:17
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The ocean floor project Picard almost joined was just them trying to fix New Zealand
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Jan 17, 2018 01:20
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3 DONG HORSE posted:What did Odo do with the dog he impersonated in Little Green Men??? There were enough dogs just roaming around in those days that an extra dog here or there wouldn't have caught any attention
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Jan 17, 2018 01:34
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Cythereal posted:Bashir's parents were also sentenced to two years in a stockade in New Zealand. I imagine it's something like a labor camp - under strict supervision, spend two years growing vegetables and attending rehab classes and whatnot. It's gotta be kinda weird to try to rehab the Bashirs if that is in fact part of their punishment. Like, they did something illegal, but it's hard to see what they did as objectively immoral. They're sent away for what is essentially the violation of a cultural taboo.
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Jan 17, 2018 01:57
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Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:It's gotta be kinda weird to try to rehab the Bashirs if that is in fact part of their punishment. Like, they did something illegal, but it's hard to see what they did as objectively immoral. They're sent away for what is essentially the violation of a cultural taboo. Now you know where all the people living on those little colonies who tell Starfleet to gently caress off come from.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:07
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Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:It's gotta be kinda weird to try to rehab the Bashirs if that is in fact part of their punishment. Like, they did something illegal, but it's hard to see what they did as objectively immoral. They're sent away for what is essentially the violation of a cultural taboo.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:13
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I get WHY they have a taboo, it's just that as far as I can wrap my head around it, at least as described in the Bashir genetic enhancement episodes, it really is just a taboo. Obviously laws don't have to line up with morality, but it seems like a funny sticking point the Federation to enforce a law that's just based on a deep-seated aversion, when normally the Federation likes to present its laws as being based on Moral Law. "You can't cure your profoundly retarded kid even though the technology exists to do so" is as bonkers as any forehead alien custom. It makes that Klingon suicide poo poo look sensible.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:37
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Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:It's gotta be kinda weird to try to rehab the Bashirs if that is in fact part of their punishment. Like, they did something illegal, but it's hard to see what they did as objectively immoral. They're sent away for what is essentially the violation of a cultural taboo. I mean, sure, he produces more Friedman units, but he had no say in the matter. He wasn't crippled; he was just dumb before he got augmented. e: I don't think he was profoundly mentally impaired. Not smart, perhaps even diagnosably having problems, but Gump-esque.
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Jan 17, 2018 02:40
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The genetic engineering prohibitions seem like theyd be a super hard sell to the vastly more advanced Vulcans and Andorians at the start of the UFP lol
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Jan 17, 2018 03:02
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shovelbum posted:The genetic engineering prohibitions seem like theyd be a super hard sell to the vastly more advanced Vulcans and Andorians at the start of the UFP lol I'd think they would like it because it would keep the humans from catching up.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:24
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Nessus posted:Julian didn't seem to care for it, despite the advantages it gave him. He also wasn't asked. It sounded like he had a developmental disability, and you'd need to apply genetic therapy early in such cases for it to have a real impact. If Bashir didn't like it, that could easily be the cultural taboo talking. The question here is that, if the Federation has access to technology that can cure developmental disorders, technology that's safe and effective thanks to advanced alien/future technology, why do they let a centuries-old war on one pre-contact planet stop them from making use of it? Edit: My guess is that it's because of that weird strain of evolutionary determinism that seeped into the writing of every TNG+ series.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:27
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:It sounded like he had a developmental disability, and you'd need to apply genetic therapy early in such cases for it to have a real impact. If Bashir didn't like it, that could easily be the cultural taboo talking. The question here is that, if the Federation has access to technology that can cure developmental disorders, technology that's safe and effective thanks to advanced alien/future technology, why do they let a centuries-old war on one pre-contact planet stop them from making use of it? Well, also, they went further than just fixing his disorders and made him far better than average. So then how can you tell people without disorders that they aren't allowed to also get genetic therapies to get to a better result? The Federation does draw some pretty lovely lines on that, though. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Jan 17, 2018 |
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Jan 17, 2018 03:31
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:The question here is that, if the Federation has access to technology that can cure developmental disorders, technology that's safe and effective thanks to advanced alien/future technology, why do they let a centuries-old war on one pre-contact planet stop them from making use of it? I think the main reason is humans seem to make up 90%+ of the Federation military and all the weapons and starships seem to be made on or near Earth... Some of the major players seem like they'd have their own reasons for rejecting genetic engineering, but not all of them Vulcans: are already computers and have stupid rear end rituals they seem to be okay with Romulans: feel superior than everyone already, no need Klingon: it is not honorable Ferengi: probably should be using it all the time based on their love of wealth and ladies out of their league Bajoran: probably some stupid religious poo poo Changelings: they very rudely used it!! Borg: TECHNICALLY aren't using it, good job boys 3 DONG HORSE fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 17, 2018 |
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Jan 17, 2018 03:33
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I'd be figuring out Vulcan super strength and longevity and splicing that into our genes, maybe analyze the poo poo out of betazoid telepathy and try to replicate that too, or the ferrengi immunity to it, perhaps even figure out the power of the bolean bowel. If most of these species can successfully mate, taking the best traits should not be at all hard for federation science. But genetic engineering always seemed like a blind spot for trek. You'd think the romulans would be all over that, making them selves super-soldiers, cardassians engineering for increased loyalty in the military, klingons giving them selves super strength and durability and maybe bringing back those venom sacs.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:39
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thexerox123 posted:Well, also, they went further than just fixing his disorders and made him far better than average. So then how can you tell people without disorders that they aren't allowed to also get genetic therapies to get to a better result? Look at how many people are against nuclear power, though, because of the atomic bomb and the arms race. People overreact sometimes.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:39
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Sash! posted:There were enough dogs just roaming around in those days that an extra dog here or there wouldn't have caught any attention This is bullshit and you know it. Odo definitely killed or beat that dog...unless he's a dog whisperer or something
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Jan 17, 2018 03:41
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Epicurius posted:Look at how many people are against nuclear power, though, because of the atomic bomb and the arms race. People overreact sometimes. I am not against nuclear power, but I would reckon that people dislike it more because of the likes of Chernobyl, Fukushima, and Three Mile Island.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:41
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Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:"You can't cure your profoundly retarded kid even though the technology exists to do so" is as bonkers as any forehead alien custom. It makes that Klingon suicide poo poo look sensible. Well, we don't actually know just how developmentally delayed Jules actually was at the time, if it was actually "retarded" or simply "slow". One would think that the Federation would allow treatments for profound mental disability, but probably not so much for someone who's just somewhat below average, particularly since you can guarantee that they'd support and spare no "expense" in education and support for federation citizens that need help due to slowness. The thing that Jules' parents did was take their son to a shady non-Federation planet, then not only bring him up to average speed, they went whole hog, giving him every available neural genetic treatment possible, and even a number of hand-eye coordination augments, only barely stopping short of making him bulletproof and super-strong, too, because they were trying to be what they thought of as "subtle". That wasn't just some compassionate therapeutic treatment to rectify a disability, that was trying to create a superhuman, and succeeding, creating Julian. Which is what the Federation (or specifically Earth) has a problem with, and bans, not genetic medicine in general. Given how screwed up Julian's father in particular was, it's pretty obvious that the problem was his going too far for the sake of his pride and lukewarm success in his own life, not just "fixing" his son, but making him pretty much unrecognizable from the child he was before the treatments, trying to game the system and produce a secretly ubermensche son that could achieve the kind of success in life that his father never could, which he could then take credit for. Yes, Earth has some pretty heavy hangups about human genetic augmentation, for some good reasons, but Julian's case isn't the best for portraying the authorities as unreasonable, particularly given the kind of success rate of these procedures as seen in the other augments from the Daystrom institute.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:42
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I always personally wondered if Julian had in fact been average - but his parents expected their son to be amazing and perfect. I'm sure most of us have known families like that. Being average isn't good enough for some parents.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:47
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Cythereal posted:I always personally wondered if Julian had in fact been average - but his parents expected their son to be amazing and perfect. I'm sure most of us have known families like that. Being average isn't good enough for some parents. I've always read it that way, so there's a vote in its favor.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:53
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Cythereal posted:I always personally wondered if Julian had in fact been average - but his parents expected their son to be amazing and perfect. I'm sure most of us have known families like that. Being average isn't good enough for some parents. It's probably this. Quoting from Memory Alpha: quote:...he will be discharged from the service and his license to practice medicine will be revoked as according to Federation law DNA re-sequencing is illegal for anything other than repairing serious birth defects. Well, maybe either below average, late bloomer, or mental or learning disability because Bashir follows up by saying he had trouble keeping up with other kids. 3 DONG HORSE fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jan 17, 2018 |
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Jan 17, 2018 03:54
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Yes, Earth has some pretty heavy hangups about human genetic augmentation, for some good reasons, but Julian's case isn't the best for portraying the authorities as unreasonable, particularly given the kind of success rate of these procedures as seen in the other augments from the Daystrom institute. You have to wonder if how much of the problems the other augments faced were due to the fact that they got treated by black market doctors, though. If it were legal and regulated, how many of those problems would go away?
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Jan 17, 2018 03:54
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Federation is always improving its technology. Better ships, better replicators, better transporters, better computers, sapient computers demanding equal rights even. That's all fine. But suggest a species-wide improvement of our immune systems to be more naturally resistant to alien germs, or more efficient lungs that can operate at lower oxygen levels, or more tolerant guts that can gain nutrients from more diverse foods, and suddenly you're hitler. No one's demanding everyone be engineering their kids to the absolute cutting edge of experimental enhancement, but it seems insane with their technology not to have an official program of slow safe gradual improvements to the species over time.
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Jan 17, 2018 03:54
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Federation genetic engineering research only resulted in a disease that aged people to death at an incredibly accelerated rate, no reason to fear the concept or anything.
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Jan 17, 2018 04:05
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I always thought the genetic engineering ban would make more sense as a general ban on experimenting on human subjects than a paranoid response to Khan. Just because he got his own movie doesn't mean he's the most important person in the setting!
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Jan 17, 2018 04:08
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Baronjutter posted:Federation is always improving its technology. Better ships, better replicators, better transporters, better computers, sapient computers demanding equal rights even. That's all fine. But suggest a species-wide improvement of our immune systems to be more naturally resistant to alien germs, or more efficient lungs that can operate at lower oxygen levels, or more tolerant guts that can gain nutrients from more diverse foods, and suddenly you're hitler. No one's demanding everyone be engineering their kids to the absolute cutting edge of experimental enhancement, but it seems insane with their technology not to have an official program of slow safe gradual improvements to the species over time. Official program as in..mandatory for everyone? Officially backed but optional? Officially regulated but run by individuals or groups? Any of these options can end up in a spectacular crisis. That'd make for great TV though
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Jan 17, 2018 04:11
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Okay forget "profoundly retarded"; let's say a child with mild to moderate Down's syndrome is born into the Federation. People with Down syndrome can live lives of value, be happy, and make many contributions to the world. Genetic resequencing technologies known to the Federation can probably cure it, though of course with a "cure" of this type you get into philosophical questions about the continuity of the self and so on. But my question is, would the Federation outlaw this? I don't think there's a correct moral position here; I certainly wouldn't condemn a parent who decided to have genetic work down on their child with Down syndrome, though I would also understand those who choose not to. But I'm not sure it falls under what is meant by "serious birth defect" here. Is it okay if the modifications are done in the womb, but not after birth? Does the Federation just abort all Down syndrome fetuses?
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Jan 17, 2018 05:06
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