Ynglaur posted:

They're working on the models and textures already!

Gridlocked posted:

Ogres and Chaos Daemons are the last two major factions from the Table Top to come.

Amazons would be a neat Norsca sub faction for Lustria.

Lings aren't really anything outside of jokes and bloodbowl.

Chorfs would be cool as gently caress as the siege engine everything faction.

uber_stoat posted:

in pursuit of my research of possible new W:TW armies, I learned that there is a tribe of Ogres that have enslaved a bunch of halflings to serve them rather than not-goblins. that's who I want to see.

Lakedaimon posted:

Someone said a few pages back that Military Alliance hurts (or blocks) your ability to Confederate. Does Defensive Alliance do that too?

Arglebargle III posted:

I'm still not groking the wood elf ME campaign. Am I supposed to be aggressive and just burn down everything, or play the end turn game with diplomacy? I have not even one army and a lousy economy.

packetmantis posted:

What's the big deal with Kislev? They just seem like Empire with different hats.

packetmantis posted:

What's the big deal with Kislev? They just seem like Empire with different hats.

AttackBacon posted:

uber_stoat posted:

in pursuit of my research of possible new W:TW armies, I learned that there is a tribe of Ogres that have enslaved a bunch of halflings to serve them rather than not-goblins. that's who I want to see.

tarbrush posted:

None of the other faction combinations present any obvious storyline or campaign purpose, or are really collocated.

Arglebargle III posted:

Haha so in order to trade I need to get like 30 amber to level up the oak of ages to level 3, then confederate another faction, then build a building and recruit a lord. To unlock trade.

Wheeeee Wood Elves are fun!

packetmantis posted:

What's the big deal with Kislev? They just seem like Empire with different hats.

Randarkman posted:

So I had some time to burn and decided to basically sperg out on Kislev and how they might be presented in Total War Warhammer. I tried to avoid the fan-made army book, which seems to make up a bunch of stuff, and instead try to base all my speculations on stuff that's been published in one way or the other. So I've used the White Dwarf army list from 6th edition, the Warmaster army list, the Mordheim warband and the WFRP supplement Realm of the Ice Queen.

Kislev overview
Kislev is that land to the north of the Empire and the Vampire Counts that’s not the Norse. It is named after the Hebrew month of Kislev (the month that contains Hanukkah) and it sounds kind of similar to Kiev. As might be expected the Kislevites are the stand-in Russians of the settings, but they also have influences from Poland and the Turks and Tatars of the Russian and Central Asian steppes. Their language is essentially Russian.


Kislev is a large country with long and deadly winters. Much of the north is permanently covered in snow and permafrost. borders are defined by the Talabec river in the south and the river Lynsk in the north.


It was settled long ago first by the (Turkic) Ungols and Ropsmenn, then conquered and settled by the (Slavic) Gospodars. All of these are now accounted Kislevites (though the Ropsmenn are of minimal consequence being mostly extinct). The Ungols and Gospodars may originally have been some manner of Kurgan people, the rulers of Kislev are called “Tzars” the same as the Kurgan chieftains known as “Zars” (somewhat confusingly the original Gospodar conquerors named their rulers “Khans”). Unlike the Kurgans, the Kislevites do not worship the Chaos gods, their primary gods being Ursun the god of bears, Dazh the god of fires, home and the sun and Tor the god of thunder and war. Unlike the Empire however, Chaos worship is not actively outlawed, though neither is killing mutants and cultists a punishable crime, and the wise women of the nomadic Ungols have the power to see Chaos taint (or so they claim) and steal away mutants and tainted children for their own mysterious and sinister purposes.

Kislev is the northernmost civilized nation in the Old World (though many in the Empire would add “barely” to that qualification) and is on the forefront of the war against the forces of Chaos. In the End Times Kislev is completely destroyed. In-game Kislev currently has three provinces, the Northern and Southern Oblasts and the Troll Country. This should probably be quite sufficient. The provincial capitals correspond to the three cities of Kislev.

Kislev in the Southern Oblast is the capital city that gives its name to the country. It is home to the palace of the Tzars, the Bokha Palace (the “Bokhas” are the dynasty that has ruled the country for ages) which is kind of a winter wonderland ice palace, this is a landmark currently in the game.


Praag in the Northern Oblast is an unfortunate and cursed place that has been sacked countless times by the forces of Chaos to the point that parts of its architecture is warped and twisted to a horrible degree with howling faces and all that charming Chaos stuff. Has a tainted opera house with a demonic pipe-organ, might make a decent landmark (extra income or something else and a small amount of Chaos Corruption?).

Erengrad on the coast and in the Troll Country, but very close to the Empire, is Kislev’s only port and most important mercantile city. It is distinct by being very culturally influenced by the Empire and hosting large expatriate populations from there, Bretonnia and Tilea (so essentially St. Petersburg), if Kislev were to have its own city style then it might make sense for Erengrad to use Empire city styles instead. It is also the place where all of Kislev’s handgunners (Streltsi) go to practice their art, so a landmark that enables recruitment of them and gives them extra rank at recruitment would make sense.

Magic in Kislev
Use of magic in Kislev has essentially monopolized by the Ice Witches, of whom Tzarina Katarin is the greatest living member. These are Gospodar, and only Gospodar, women who through some connection to the bloodline of the ancient Gospodar Khan-Queens as well as to the very land of Kislev can work a unique form of magic that calls upon the power of Ice.

Unlike normal magic, the Ice Magic wielded by the witches carries much less risk of demonic possession and warp phenomena, but the power and reserves the witches can call upon is heavily dictated by the seasons and proximity to the land of Kislev. In the 6th edition White Dwarf army list, the Lore of Ice consisted of the following spells.

• Shardstorm, a magic missile
• Freezing Blast which made a target unit move as in difficult terrain
• Form of the Frostfiend which transforms the caster into a kind of ice-hawk (giving them fly and 4 S5 attacks, could be a summon to summon a unit based on that form)
• Invocation of the Ice Storm, a debuff that effects an area giving -2 to hit with all ranged attacks (affects the entire battlefield on a miscast)
• Midwinter’s Kiss, a wind spell (flame template) that ignores armor saves.
• Glacial Barrier, creates a wall of ice on the battlefield, impassable terrain, destroyed if attacked by a S5 attack.

In the Warmaster list Ice lore users could also do a snap-freeze kind of ability that could damage a whole unit, as well transform themselves into a bear (again might make sense as a summon).

The Ice Witches take on the characteristics of winter, ice and snow, becoming very pale, cold (both literally and emotionally) and eerily beautiful. They will not allow other magic users to gain prominence in Kislev, and in particular despise the idea of men wielding magic (they see men as too inherently unstable to be trusted with this) and attempt to cull out and destroy any that might appear.

There’s also the Ungol Hags, but most of them aren't really magic-users. Some, outside of the sight of the Ice Witches, do practice some hedge magic. They are most noted for being able to see and feel the taint of Chaos, serving as advisors and healers in Ungol tribes and whatever weird stuff it is they do with the tainted children they drag away to their huts. They live a long-rear end time and look like withered old crones.

Legendary Lords
There are two obvious choices, the two that are given rules in the White Dwarf army list. Those are Tzar Boris Ursus, the “Red Tzar”, and his daughter and successor (after he gets himself killed by invading Kurgans) Tzarina Katarin, the Ice Queen.

Tzarina Katarin, the Ice Queen

Taking over after her father Boris was killed in battle, the Ice Queen rules Kislev with an icy iron fist. She’s a highly competent, ambitious and ruthless political animal who is trying her hardest to concentrate as much power around her own person as possible and diminish the traditional powers of the landed aristocracy and local elites and replace it with a meritocratic bureaucracy of nobles and a professional army loyal to her alone.

On top of that she is also the most powerful Ice Witch in Kislev and nominal head of their order, though she tries to represent that order as apolitical and de-emphasize her role in it so as not to alienate the other political factions of Kislev.

She’d be a caster lord, using the Kislev-unique Lore of Ice, also coming with powerful leadership and army buffs to represent both her being a revered monarch and her reforming tendencies (it would make sense for her to be able to recruit all “professional soldier” unit types at a lower cost and higher veterancy, Kossars, Streltsy and Gryphon Legionnaires, in the White Dwarf list Gryphon Legion units are not 0-1 if she leads your army).

She can mount either a warhorse or an armored sled pulled by a team of horses (making for a unique and fun chariot).

She has two magic items, which is the perfect amount for a Total War Warhammer character as I think two quest battles is the norm. Fearfrost is a magical sword that can only be wielded by a woman, and would kill a man to death with cold if he were to hold it, on the tabletop it grants Killing Blow and ignores all armor saves (sounds like a pretty straightforward high AP damage weapon). The Crystal Cloak is more interesting, it grants her a 4+ ward save and all close combat rolls to hit and wound suffer a -1 penalty (that sounds like a 50% physical resistance ward save and an activated ability that causes a penalty to melee attack and weapon damage in an AOE around her to me).

Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar

This guy rides a bear. Pretty cool. Too bad he’s dead, though I am pretty sure that won’t matter too much, because, really, who cares? The guy rides a bear. He came to ride said bear after he was hunting a bear in his youth, and after battling it for a long time and both being exhausted helped defend it from a pack of wolves. Then they became best friends and the bear was named Urskin.

In addition to being the Tzar of Kislev he also became the first High Priest of the cult of Ursun (the bear god) in centuries and did much to restore that cult to a place of prominence in Kislevite society when it had previously been in decline for a long time. Other than that he mostly spent his time being very popular, having a big moustache and leading campaigns against the Norscans and Kurgans, which is what eventually killed him (and I presume his bear as well).

In the game he’d be a melee lord with bonus versus large (he’s wielding a halberd, and he has a history of hunting bears). He would eventually unlock Urskin as his special mount, though he could have access to a normal warhorse (and barded version) before that. Like Katarin he has two magic items. The Armor of Ursun is a sacred armor with the powdered bones of a bunch of bears mixed in with the steel from which it was forged, it provided a 4+ armor save and for each attack that hit him in the previous round he is allowed to make one free attack back (after the hit). The Shard Blade is a polearm with a blade crafted from a Norscan glacier and enchanted with Ice magic so it stays frozen forever, it gives him +2 strength and requires an opponent to take a toughness test or immediately suffer an additional wound (with no save allowed). Both of these wepaons sound like they would just make him into even more of a melee powerhouse, especially when he’s mounted on his bear.

Other Legendary Lords
Supposedly CA wants to do new race DLCs with 4 Legendary Lords, and while Kislev might very well end up being a FLC not a DLC and thus having less content than a full-fledged new race than Tomb Kings, they might still be that full package if they aren’t simply cheaper.

I think there are two mentions in the WFRP 2nd edition book on Kislev that could serve as a basis for Legendary Lords. First up is Tordimir Lubovasyn, the captain of the Gryphon Legion and very important person to Katarin as she needs to make a permanent ally out of him as she has set her eyes upon making the Gryphon Legion a permanent part of a standing army. Second and more interesting is Nyvena, he is a powerful and popular Ungol war leader in the north who has won many victories against the forces of Chaos and shows signs of having the favor of Ursun that Katarin’s father once enjoyed. Were he to become high priest he would become too powerful and important for Katarin to ignore, and possibly an enemy to be eliminated. He’d be more interesting because he’d make sense to put in a different start position (Praag in the Northern Oblast would be logical).

Speaking of start positions, Katarin would obviously start in Kislev being the ruler. However Boris is also the ruler of Kislev, and her father, so really you have a couple of ways of going about it.
1) Have them both in Kislev, with one of them as faction leader (I’d say Katarin), you start with the bonuses of the one you choose, and the other can be recruited after a certain threshold.
2) Have them leading separate factions in Kislev and either be allies at start or at war or at least with a tenuous relationship (say Katarin is trying to usurp her father)
3) Have Boris start outside of Kislev, maybe in Norsca or the Chaos Wastes (say he was not killed but was instead lost).

Lords, Heroes and Units
For generic lords, I think a single one, the Boyar (the sole character in the White Dwarf army list), should do the trick. A normal melee lord with a red tree buffing up units and such. Can be mounted on warhorse and barded warhorse, possibly access to a great bear when high enough level (dependent on how heavily you want to go with the whole bear thing).

For heroes you could have the Chekist, they are mentioned in WFRP as Katarin’s secret police, and they take their name from the early Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka. They wield cudgels, and wear distinctive uniforms and ride black horses. They would boost public order, sabotage enemy settlements, steal technology and assassinate heroes. On the battlefield they should be middling combatants but maybe have access to useful auras and buffs to represent them encouraging and intimidating the troops.


Another hero would be the Priest of Ursun, the roleplay supplement makes a point of the cult of Ursun not having much in the way of formal organization, but they still play an important societal role. Nearly all settlements (stanitsas) have a priest of Ursun, typically the largest and strongest man who has hunted and brought back a (live) bear. Think they would work similar to Empire Warrior Priests with prayers and blessings, but also with the ability to eventually mount a great bear. They’d be good melee combatants, though with low armor (bare-chested is a must, as is a great big moustache). He’d train your troops and that assault armies and garrrions. This guy might be replaced by the Esaul which was a guy you could take in the Mordheim Kislev warband, he’s a Cossack (mentioned as the nomads of the north, so I think this is basically just Ungols before they started naming them that) and the word is said to mean “best warrior”, this guy would be just a straight up melee hero, though perhaps retaining the ability to mount a bear (I like the priest of Ursun idea better so as not to clutter it up with too many melee heroes).

For magic users you’d have the Ice Witch using the Lore of Ice. Outside of battle they’d work much the same as other magic users able to assassinate heroes and boost economy and that kind of stuff. I’d also put in the Ungol Hags (or Hag Witch), as an alternate caster, with skills that can make them particularly good at removing corruption (spreading “untainted”) and access to either their own lore, the Lore of Hags (though I feel one unique lore is enough for Kislev) or the Lores of Death, Light and Shadow.

The iconic Kislevite unit is of course the Winged Lancers, just called “knights” in the Warmaster list. WFRP expands on their origins and role. Each settlement in Kislev is tasked to provide a rota (a variable sized unit) of winged lancers for war, this typically means most men fit for military service outfitted by their community and trained together. They wield long lances, sabres and armor fitted with wings (often handed down from their fathers and never worn outside of battle to prevent tear and the most expensive maintenance, this is usually a mail coat with pieces of plate) and ride tough Kislevite horses. There is a great variety, apart from the general equipment, between any two rotas of Winged Lancers, in the south and in wealthier settlements they might look almost indistinguishable (apart from the wings) from Empire knights, in the north they will be wilder nomadic Ungols and incorporate animal pelts and other more exotic elements in their uniform. I can see there being two variants, a normal one (with 30 or 40 armor) and a heavy version with (with around 80 armor) available with an armory. In general this would be a fast shock cavalry unit (anti-large on account of their long lances?), with a very good charge bonus, but middling melee attack and low melee defence. In the White Dwarf list they have a special rule “Glorious Charge” which make them Cause Fear on the turn they charge as long as the unit contains more than 5 models, this could justify a martial prowess-type ability that is active as long as the unit has more than 50% health and provides a large boost to charge bonus, a decent one to melee attack and have them cause fear as long as it’s active (would also serve to make them a bit cheaper).


Then you have the Ungol Horse Archers, these are the finest human light cavalry and said to rival elves in horsemanship and archery. They are raised similarly to Winged Lancers, but from the nomadic Ungols in the north. They are hopeless as line troops, but very good skirmishers, scouts and raiders. Their role in Total War Warhammer is obvious, fast missile cavalry that can shoot whilst moving in 360 degrees. Somewhat related to this, in WFRP under the heading detailing Nyvena (whom I mentioned above) it says that he has horse-archers and lancers in his army and that those lancers aren’t winged. So an unarmored Ungol Lancer might make sense as well. Or if not that base it on the “Cossack” from the Mordheim list and have a low tier, fast sabre-armed light cavalry unit able to run down missile troops and routers (I like this idea, you’d already have enough lancers). Both (if a melee variant is included as well) should have vanguard deployment.


The Druzhina are mentioned both in the Mordheim list and the WFRP supplement as the minor nobility of Kislev. In the Mordheim list they are described as possessing impressive old weaponry handed down in their families and that they form their own regiments in the Kislevite army. I could imagine them as an armored sword and shield cavalry unit, focused more on sustained melee than the glorious charge of the Winged Lancers.

The Gryphon Legion are a regiment of professional Winged Lancers recruited from the nobility. They hire themselves out as mercenaries when not serving in the army of Kislev. Tzarina Katarin would dearly like to incorporate them as the cavalry component of a professional standing army. They’d pretty much just be better Winged Lancers, with better armor, morale, and melee stats. They should have the same Glorious Charge as normal Winged Lancers, but should still be very capable without that ability active.


The Kossars are the primary professional soldiers of Kislev. Originally an Ungol tribe, they are now a professional standing force of both Ungols and Gospodars, they are primarily recruited from criminals or others fleeing a life of disgrace (Kossars are noted for their disorderly behavior when serving in peacetime). They fight with greataxe and bow, and are equally skilled in the use of both of them. I can see this as a unit somewhat like Lothern Seaguard but with an armor piercing (maybe anti-infantry) bonus from their great axes, and being unshielded and unarmored, you could make a case for Defence vs. Large as on tabletop they had a rule called “Steady in the Ranks” (which allowed them to shoot at charging enemies without taking a penalty to hit). A higher tier armored variant (something like 50 or 60 armor maybe, chainmail) seems like a thing CA would do.


The Streltsi are a special rota of Kossars originating from Erengrad where a gunpowder crazed boyar wanted to introduce handguns from the Empire. The use of these weapons has now spread to most of Kislev and soldiers come to Erengrad to learn how to train with handguns and bardiche, the weapons of the Streltsi. If you know anything about early modern Eastern European armies you know what this is supposed to be, people equipped with a kind of halberd-axe weapon that doubles as a rest for their musket. They are mentioned in the Mordheim list (where using a halberd and handgun gave them +1 to hit if they didn’t move) as well as in WFRP. They’d be much like the Kossars except armed with handguns instead of bows and halberds instead of great weapons, so they’d be more of an anti-large unit. Like the Kossars I could see both an armored an unarmored version of these guys being likely.

The Warmaster list mentions Archers and Axemen, from town levies and such, as infantry. In addition to the Kossars and Streltsi hybrid troops I could see something like this needing to be included as cheap low-tier infantry. The axe mentioned is essentially a bardiche, so they might be more of a halberd unit rather than axemen. Both would be cheap and lightly armored or unarmored. I could see something like “Ungol Hunters” being an archer variant with vanguard deployment and stalk, but lower numbers.

Bears of course need to be included in a Kislevite army. Personally I’m not so big on a bear cavalry unit, it really seems like riding a bear in Kislev is more for notable individuals like Tzar Boris than a dedicated elite unit (like in the fan-made codex). I see two variants as being possible here. First is a bear pack of normal-sized bears, war beasts, essentially stronger and slower warhounds in smaller units that cause fear. Second is a “Great Bear”, a huge cave-bear monstrosity of prehistory, should also be the one that’s available as mounts for certain lords and heroes. This should be a single monster, cause fear (possibly terror) and essentially be a rather cheap (for a monster) melee powerhouse. All bears should have primal instincts and also provide an AOE buff to morale and melee attack (as Kislevites revere bears and are encouraged and emboldened by their presence), this last one should also be the case for bear mounts.

The War Wagon is the centerpiece unit of the Warmaster list. It is a wagon pulled by a team of 4 horses that houses a number of soldiers armed with handguns as well as light cannons. It would be a relatively slow (in Warmaster it moves at infantry speed) chariot that can shoot a whole bunch courtesy of the cannon and the handgunners. Good for anchoring a line or providing fire support. The fact that there’s a cannon in the War Wagon might also merit including a light cannon of some sort in the army as a normal war machine.


I mentioned the Frostfiend when discussing the Lore of Ice and that it would make sense as a summoned unit. Well, I don’t really think you should have a summonable unit that can’t be recruited normally so this would be it. This is the description of the form from the White Dwarf list “a shrieking, taloned creature of Kislev legend, carried across the battlefield in a whirlwind of purest cold”. So this sounds like a flying monster, somewhat like a bird, or atleast something with talons, that flies about in a blizzard loving things up. That’d work for a flying monster I think.

Buildings
I’m thinking one thing you could do with Kislev is to represent them as “militarized society” somewhat like the Barbarians in Rome 2 and have most of their units be recruited from economy buildings and such rather than the barracks. The Kossars (and the Streltsi) are really the only professional soldiers in the country, the Winged Lancers and Horse Archers for instance are levied troops.

So I’m thinking you’d have a “Stanitsa” building chain (somewhat like the skink favelas) that provides income and growth, as well as the Winged Hussar unit, with the armored version being available at tier 3 with an armory. A similar Ungol tribal gathering building that might not provide income but some other bonus (a garrison? Local movement speed?) that serves to recruit the Ungol hunters, horse archers and melee horsemen I discussed. Then a building for nobles (court?) that provides public order and some income and recruits the Druzhina and at tier IV or something the Gryphon Legion (maybe together with an armory). Bears and Priests of Ursun would be recruited from coves and caves dedicated to Ursun, eventually becoming a temple at tier IV in settlements that do the normal temple thing of increasing untainted. A similar hag coven would provide recruitment of Ungol Hags and increase untainted. The Ice Witches should be recruited from a mage tower like building chain (frosthome is a gathering place in Erengrad, something based on that), with tier IV or something also giving access to the Frostfiend. Archers and Bardiche Infantry should always be available from the settlement capital, whilst Kossars and Streltsy (and their armored variants) are the only units recruited from dedicated barracks. A chekist hideout/office should increase public order and provide access to the Chekist hero.

Army Roster
Basically all of the stuff I speculated on above, listed in the manner of CA’s army rosters. As you can see it's a very cavalry and missile heavy roster, though alot of the missile units are hybrid melee units. Portraying "glorious charge" somewhat like martial prowess should allow this faction to field large numbers of shock cavalry somewhat cheaper than other armies might.

Legendary Lords
Tzarina Katarin – Caster Lord, mounts: warhorse, armored sled
Tzar Boris Ursus – Melee Lord, mounts: warhorse, barded warhorse, Urskin

Generic Lords
Boyar – Melee Lord, mounts: warhorse, barded warhorse, great bear

Heroes
Chekist – Support specialist, mounts: warhorse
Ice Witch (Ice) – Caster, mounts: warhorse
Ungol Hag (Death, Light, Shadow) – Caster, mounts: none
Priest of Ursun – Melee Specialist, mounts: warhorse, barded warhorse, great bear

Melee Infantry
Bardiche Infantry – Halberd Infantry

Missile Infantry
Archers – Bow Infantry
Kossars – Bow and Axe Infantry
Armored Kossars – Bow and Axe Infantry
Streltsi – Handgun and Halberd Infantry
Armored Streltsi – Handgun and Halberd Infantry
Ungol Hunters – Bow Infantry

Melee Cavalry
Ungol Horsemen (alternatively, maybe, called Cossacks courtesy of Mordheim list) – Melee Cavalry
Druzhina – Melee Cavalry
Winged Lancers – Shock Cavalry
Winged Lancers (Armored) – Shock Cavalry
Gryphon Legion – Shock Cavalry

Missile Cavalry
Ungol Horse Archers – Missile Cavalry

Monsters and Beasts
Bear Pack – War Beasts
Great Bear – Monstrous Beast

Artillery and War Machines
War Wagon – War Machine
Kislevite Cannon – Siege Artillery

Rare Monsters and Beasts
Frostfiend – Flying Monster

Ralepozozaxe posted:

Another Tomb Kings trailer is released: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RqhiJ18kWQ

quote:

When conversing with Settra in diplomacy, players must verbally address him using his entire title-train, regardless of any embarrassment this may cause due to the presence of family members.

quote:

- When in dispute with a hirsute brute, apply the boot with a firm DOOT DOOT

toasterwarrior posted:

Sic transit gloria mundi, even though I've long switched from Light Wizards to Bright Wizards for my Empire armies.

quote:

Piercing Bolts of Burning changed to fully armour-piercing and increased projectile damage to increase damage against high hit point entities (and overkill basic infantry). Think of the spell now as an elite-killer.