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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It's not wrong. But if you read the report, there was a literal direct RPG strike on a HFC-227 tank that was part of the fire suppression system in each case. In very intense heat (like way more than for a normal vehicle fire), HFC-227 will turn in to HF. It's just that the chance of a very unlucky direct explosion occuring on the HFC-227 tank does not outweigh the purpose of the fire suppression system in all other cases. Oh sure, I wasn't arguing that either, I just think it's pretty horrifying that there's a chance, however negligible, that your fire suppression system can turn into hydroflouric acid. Thanks for clearing i tup, regardless.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:45
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Tias posted:Oh sure, I wasn't arguing that either, I just think it's pretty horrifying that there's a chance, however negligible, that your fire suppression system can turn into hydroflouric acid. Thanks for clearing i tup, regardless. Yeah it sucks pretty bad and might indicate some kind of design flaw (once seems like pure luck, twice less so) but then again, the range of "good" outcomes for the "I am sitting in an MRAP that has received a penetrating hit from an RPG" is pretty small and not very good.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:56
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Mr Enderby posted:To up the early modernness, publish pamphlets accusing the small adorable dog of being a demon, and when it dies claim it was slain by a skilled necromancer. The early modern period totally rules. Except for all the death and misery.
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Jan 19, 2018 14:24
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Victor Hutchinson's POW Diary Friday 19th January, 1945 The camp is alive with excitement and everyone awaits news. Litzmannstadt has been taken by the Russians and they still maintain their phenomenal rate of advance! Bets are being made everywhere. Feb the first date quoted as a likely date. One budding mathematician has calculated that at the present rate of advance the Russians should pass us on Sunday afternoon. It is very difficult to settle down to work with all the gay optimism flying around. Some people even hint that we might be made to trek untold miles inland! Tonight the Germans have insisted that we keep all windows fastened, this is the form that their tightening up of air raid precautions has taken. They state that if a window is left open during an air raid the guards will shoot thro’ the window! Had us with a smoky stove! For the past few days we have been burning peat instead of the normal coal brickets. Rumour has it that the factory has been bombed. We have only 4 weeks supply of parcels in hand at the rate of ½ parcel per man per week.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:11
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HEY GUNS posted:This is your captain speaking, the fasten seat belt sign HAS been turned on I mean, let's say they really were doing some kind of coordinate bomb and drop operation or whatever. They'd likely need a mass of these things, so why not have half of the group be dedicated bombers and half the group dedicated to troop transportation . . . . . . I think I'm indirectly making GBS threads on the F-35 right now.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:30
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I mean, let's say they really were doing some kind of coordinate bomb and drop operation or whatever. They'd likely need a mass of these things, so why not have half of the group be dedicated bombers and half the group dedicated to troop transportation . . . To save on fuel, duh! If half the group only transports men, thats an extra half of your total payload youre NOT dropping!
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Jan 19, 2018 18:35
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Have the Paras grab onto the bombs as they're released, and then let go and open their parachutes. This way the enemy is still in shock from the blast and can't effectively defend against all the paratroopers. on the cutting edge yet again
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Jan 19, 2018 18:40
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The meme thread is at it again
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Jan 19, 2018 18:46
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Jobbo_Fett posted:To save on fuel, duh! But what if all the men has grenades on them, like 10-12?
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Jan 19, 2018 19:22
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Greggster posted:But what if all the men has grenades on them, like 10-12? Throw the grenades out of the plane while the bombs are getting dropped.
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Jan 19, 2018 19:41
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i'm trying to think of one of those "you see ivan" memes about this but i'm not coming up with anything good.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:14
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Don Gato posted:Have the Paras grab onto the bombs as they're released, and then let go and open their parachutes. This way the enemy is still in shock from the blast and can't effectively defend against all the paratroopers. Does anybody know what the general failure rate of military parachutes are? Like, how many paratroopers are expected to buy it just because of pure accident?
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Jan 19, 2018 20:16
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Mycroft Holmes posted:i'm trying to think of one of those "you see ivan" memes about this but i'm not coming up with anything good.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:21
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Night10194 posted:The early modern period totally rules.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:25
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Tias posted:Oh sure, I wasn't arguing that either, I just think it's pretty horrifying that there's a chance, however negligible, that your fire suppression system can turn into hydroflouric acid. Thanks for clearing i tup, regardless.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:27
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HEY GUNS posted:i started studying it by accident and now i can't stop That's how I was with Religious Studies originally, I got suckered in through a rad class on the History of Witchcraft right as I was trying to decide what kind of history I wanted to do in undergrad.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:28
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Night10194 posted:That's how I was with Religious Studies originally, I got suckered in through a rad class on the History of Witchcraft right as I was trying to decide what kind of history I wanted to do in undergrad. it took over my brain, man
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Jan 19, 2018 20:30
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Breda 201 So...the Germans could never build a Ju 87 replacement, but the Italians could?
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Jan 19, 2018 20:34
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Nebakenezzer posted:So...the Germans could never build a Ju 87 replacement, but the Italians could? Planes like the Ju 87 were rendered obsolete by the fact that fighters could carry their payloads and were just more useful. It hurt the SB2C and a lot of the other later dive bombers. When engines got better, it made certain plane types obsolete. The later FW 190s could do everything the Ju 87 could.. and be fighters too.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:46
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Greggster posted:But what if all the men has grenades on them, like 10-12? Are the fuzes timed or contact?
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Jan 19, 2018 21:15
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Panzeh posted:Planes like the Ju 87 were rendered obsolete by the fact that fighters could carry their payloads and were just more useful. It hurt the SB2C and a lot of the other later dive bombers. When engines got better, it made certain plane types obsolete. The later FW 190s could do everything the Ju 87 could.. and be fighters too. Well, they couldn't go near-vertical for precision strikes, but yeah as AA guns got better, more men being deployed, better fighters designed, and earlier detection/warning systems were put in place, the idea of a Dive Bomber above the battlefield became less and less persuasive for military planners. Not to say they wouldnt be completely useless, but the weapons of 1940 are very different from those of 44 and 45
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Jan 19, 2018 21:19
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It says a lot that in service the Ju-87 was pretty quickly moved from dive bombing to using large cannon for strafing attacks.
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Jan 19, 2018 21:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:It says a lot that in service the Ju-87 was pretty quickly moved from dive bombing to using large cannon for strafing attacks. I mean, not all /that/ quickly. As long as the Luftwaffe had air superiority it was actually pretty good in its original role. It's just it was a sitting duck if that wasn't true.
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Jan 19, 2018 21:45
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Cyrano4747 posted:It says a lot that in service the Ju-87 was pretty quickly moved from dive bombing to using large cannon for strafing attacks. Had a pretty good run from 1936 to 1943 
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Jan 19, 2018 21:46
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So, did any other air force use dive bombers aside from the Germans? (I know all about naval dive bombing vs. ships, I'm just wondering if there is any other AFs using them for land precision strikes.) Went on wikipedia to see if I could answer my own question, found the Brewster Buccaneer, which is a good reply to "what were procurement fuckups the Allies made?"
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Jan 19, 2018 22:07
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Mycroft Holmes posted:i'm trying to think of one of those "you see ivan" memes about this but i'm not coming up with anything good. HEY GUNS posted:you see antonio...
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Jan 19, 2018 22:24
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Nebakenezzer posted:So, did any other air force use dive bombers aside from the Germans? (I know all about naval dive bombing vs. ships, I'm just wondering if there is any other AFs using them for land precision strikes.) Everyone did!
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Jan 19, 2018 22:34
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Everyone did! Part of the doctrinal difference that made the Germans use it so much was the fact that the Allies dismantled their artillery corps after WW1. When the Nazis built the military back up, they decided to focus on dive bombers instead of guns for the roles other armies relied on artillery for as the first option. It's hard to untangle how much of that was building doctrine around capability or capability around doctrine.
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Jan 19, 2018 22:47
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Does anybody know what the general failure rate of military parachutes are? Like, how many paratroopers are expected to buy it just because of pure accident? The US Army’s new T-11 parachute has been seeing something like a 1 in 21,000 jump failure rate. Note that this is a main canopy failure rate, not an injury rate. An injury caused by the jump, even if it’s not fatal, can cause the individual to not be operationally useful once landed. The WWII numbers from the 82nd airborne suggest 1 injury every ~1000 jumps. The overall history of the 82nd halves that rate to one injury every ~2000 jumps, though the majority of those are in peacetime conditions.
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Jan 19, 2018 23:22
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Comrade Gorbash posted:...when your transport is your bomber, your paratroopers can capture whatever you didn't blow up! Wait a minute there. Jobbo_Fett, Do you know if it could transport paratroopers? At this point, I'm not assuming anything. It might literally mean it can stuff some people in the plane with the bombs, but they have to land to disembark.
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Jan 19, 2018 23:42
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Nebakenezzer posted:So, did any other air force use dive bombers aside from the Germans? Comrade Gorbash posted:and by the time the Western Allies got back on the continent the tactic was getting less use due to improvement in less risky alternatives. In North Africa and Italy the USAAF used a version of the Mustang - called A-36 Apaches in that role - as dive bombers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPqoC3_hqA But as you said, that mission was dropped in time.
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Jan 19, 2018 23:48
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Do you know if it could transport paratroopers? At this point, I'm not assuming anything. It might literally mean it can stuff some people in the plane with the bombs, but they have to land to disembark.
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Jan 20, 2018 00:22
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Cessna posted:In North Africa and Italy the USAAF used a version of the Mustang - called A-36 Apaches in that role - as dive bombers. Good point about the Apache in North Africa. It's history really points to why the tactic faded though. It was just so dangerous, and really only survived as long as it was the only way to get that effect on target. Once other bombing techniques and artillery improved, it got squeezed out because they were just safer.
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Jan 20, 2018 00:31
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Wait a minute there. I mean... I can't see why not, to be honest, but nothing in the text mentioned if they were used for that specifically.
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Jan 20, 2018 00:47
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Cessna posted:In North Africa and Italy the USAAF used a version of the Mustang - called A-36 Apaches in that role - as dive bombers. I forget what the French had, people have already posted the British stuff, the Italians kinda sorta tried the Dive Bomber thing, and I think theres one or two others in other companies I haven't covered yet. The Russians had the Pe-2, the Japanese had the D3A nd the D4Y, and the US had stuff like the SBD, A-36, and the P-38. I forget if the P38 was specifically used in a DB role, but it had a fatal compression problem in high speeds in dives, and had brakes iirc. The A-36 had a series of accidents, can't remember if it had the same issue with buffeting.
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Jan 20, 2018 00:51
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Jobbo_Fett posted:I forget if the P38 was specifically used in a DB role, but it had a fatal compression problem in high speeds in dives, and had brakes iirc. The A-36 had a series of accidents, can't remember if it had the same issue with buffeting. The P-38 had "dive recovery flaps;" they were only added after the compression problem was discovered. It was an issue with high speed dives (like you might perform trying to escape a Zero on your tail) rather than with dive-bombing attacks specifically, though the P-38 was used in the fighter-bomber role fairly frequently.
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Jan 20, 2018 01:57
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What was the Allied plan at the end of 1944 before the Germans began the Ardenne's offensive? Was it to wait out the winter and build up supplies and troops for a big push into Germany in the early spring?
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Jan 20, 2018 02:22
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HEY GUNS posted:isn't there an early 20th century fire extinguisher that might or might not turn into poison gas Carbon tetrachloride? Potent hepatotoxin, also forms phosgene at high temperatures. HMS Ulysses mentions some extinguishers being unusable because sailors had stolen the tetrachloride to clean their uniforms, but I don't know if this is a real thing that happened.
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Jan 20, 2018 02:23
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GotLag posted:Carbon tetrachloride? Potent hepatotoxin, also forms phosgene at high temperatures.
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Jan 20, 2018 02:34
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Yes. Edit: that spring mechanism is supposed to be released when some solder (or similar) melts, although I can't tell from that picture if it's meant to fling the grenade or just smash it right there. GotLag fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jan 20, 2018 |
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Jan 20, 2018 02:36
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