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I just love how we are supposed to be some kind of loving hard counter to Russia all the time. If they are SUCH a threat to Europe, surely the countries there will be building up their forces in anticipation. Until they do, why the gently caress are we supposed to go half cocked on some vague threat wasting billions of dollars? I am sorry, I forgot that I live in the US where military spending and stupid imperial adventures are the only thing the country is capable of doing anymore.
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Jan 23, 2018 23:57
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Majorian posted:Again, Russia's ability to occupy and pacify Ukraine and/or Georgia is pretty limited, which why they've focused exclusively on breakaway or restive pro-Moscow regions. Where else do you think they would invade beyond those two countries? Do you actually think they'd invade a NATO country, for example? I do not think Russia would try to do anything to an existing nato country. He will continue to try and annex his neighbors that are not current NATO members. Hence the rush of states to join NATO. I can't just pick a place and say that Russia will invade here, but it is pretty clear from their history that if they are given an opportunity to do so, they will. The trick is going to be not giving them an opportunity. I agree that they were given the opportunity to invade Crimea due to the US's and NATO not following a good strategy in regards to ukraine. self unaware posted:The question of how to contain Russia's recent imperialism does not have an easy answer and "just put more boots on the ground" is not going to stop Putin from being an authoritarian. What you really need to ask yourself is would life be better for the average Crimean/East Ukrainian if the US/NATO had attempted to stop Russia from annexing both territories via the use of military force? That's a hard argument to make, but I'm open to hearing it. As much as i don't like it, i agree with you. I am not sure NATO forces would have improved anyone's life in the affected areas. However, going forward we must not allow countries that wish to be a part of NATO to be prevented from doing so by threat of Russian invasion. Gaghskull posted:It would sure as hell be a lot better for the Crimean Tartars if NATO had done anything. From the Human Rights Watch as of November. This was something i was not aware of. Thank you for sharing. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 23:58
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Gaghskull posted:It would sure as hell be a lot better for the Crimean Tartars if NATO had done anything. From the Human Rights Watch as of November. I'm not so sure of that. If the U.S. had intervened and the region devolved into a full-on proxy war, the Russians still probably would have occupied a lot of the same area, and their treatment of the civilians probably wouldn't have been any less draconian.
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Jan 23, 2018 23:58
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I do not think Russia would try to do anything to an existing nato country. He will continue to try and annex his neighbors that are not current NATO members. Hence the rush of states to join NATO. I can't just pick a place and say that Russia will invade here, but it is pretty clear from their history that if they are given an opportunity to do so, they will. Well, that pretty much means Ukraine and Georgia, though. Moscow's not interested in Finland, Belarus is already a puppet state, the Baltics are NATO, and Central Asia has largely staked out a position of benign neutrality towards Russia. The Kremlin can only invade and occupy those regions that it has the capabilities to do so, and at this point they're already stretching their limits. There's not much of an incentive to try to reabsorb all of Ukraine, even if Putin were able to do so. It's much cheaper and more effective to make them a puppet state again. Trying to reabsorb Georgia would be even more of a logistical nightmare for them.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:04
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Gaghskull posted:It would sure as hell be a lot better for the Crimean Tartars if NATO had done anything. From the Human Rights Watch as of November. I don't think bombing them will help
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Jan 24, 2018 00:10
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Gaghskull posted:It would sure as hell be a lot better for the Crimean Tartars if NATO had done anything. From the Human Rights Watch as of November. The last time NATO intervened in an Eastern European country to protect an ethnic minority from government oppression, it was an unmitigated disaster. I don't think we should do nothing about Putin but I don't think direct military action was a reasonable response given the situation in 2014, and our covert military options were and are relatively limited.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:11
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/955882477653905408 Ok stepping away from dry foreign policy chat for a second, this article is actually soul crushing to read. We're pretty much hosed.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:16
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"We must act immediately to protect the human rights of persecuted minority groups!" *levels entire country*
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Jan 24, 2018 00:16
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics Here's a good read if you're interested in current Russian lit regarding IR. This book is big with the military and political elite over there. If you look at the quick rundown in the wikipedia article you might even see some things that look really familiar  Lightning Knight posted:Ok stepping away from dry foreign policy chat for a second, this article is actually soul crushing to read. Hey, foreign policy is amazing how dare u 
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Jan 24, 2018 00:18
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Grapplejack posted:Hey, foreign policy is amazing how dare u I actually find foreign policy more interesting than domestic policy but I think the whole Putin/Ukraine thing is kind of dull.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:20
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Grapplejack posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics From what I've read Putin & co consider Dugin a goddamn crank, so you should maybe be a bit less credulous here.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:25
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yeah, there's not much to it. losing sevastopol was viewed by the russians as an existential threat, they totes-not-invaded eastern ukraine to secure it, and nobody was or is willing to start world war three over the russians maintaining access to sevastopol. there is only so much saber rattling you can do at a guy who controls your light switch.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:26
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok stepping away from dry foreign policy chat for a second, this article is actually soul crushing to read. “If you’re disappointed by your elected officials, grab a clipboard, get some signatures, and run for office yourself,” Obama implored. "And the Democrats will be there every step of the way, fighting you for every inch" he added.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:43
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Ze Pollack posted:yeah, there's not much to it. losing sevastopol was viewed by the russians as an existential threat, they totes-not-invaded eastern ukraine to secure it, and nobody was or is willing to start world war three over the russians maintaining access to sevastopol. Had Georgia been a NATO country ten years ago, there would have been the nuclear version of WW1 over Mikheil Saakashvili's crazy gambit of goung on a murder-tour of South Ossetia, thinking that he had the West backing him and Russia wouldn't stir. poo poo, aging failing Otto Bismarck knew 120 years ago that staking international politics on Eastern Uropean feuds was a recipe for disaster. We are beyond redemption. Liberals needs to start thinking of Putin as a smart gangster trying to re-integrate old turf to his domain, not a cackling world-conquering maniac. But I guess getting to finally rub shoulders with neocons just feels way too good.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:44
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Iron Twinkie posted:“If you’re disappointed by your elected officials, grab a clipboard, get some signatures, and run for office yourself,” Obama implored. "And the Democrats will be there every step of the way, fighting you for every inch" he added. Times like these where I appreciate that my father, old pseudo-chavista weirdo though he is, is and always has been completely right about the reality of the American political system in ways that seem to become ever more pronounced with every passing day.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:46
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I literally don't know anyone IRL who could run for office. I mean, they literally don't have the time. Unless you're a kid, retired, or rich, I don't see how you could do it. The city council in my town is all retirees and I'm starting to figure out why.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:48
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok stepping away from dry foreign policy chat for a second, this article is actually soul crushing to read. My favorite line, because it perfectly sums up what's wrong with the Democratic Party and the performative pseudo-woke lanyards that enable them: quote:A DCCC official, asked about Craig’s time running the corporate PAC, said it was unfair to accuse a married lesbian raising a family of being part of the political establishment, and that her business success was an asset, not a liability.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:49
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I mean, they literally don't have the time. Unless you're a kid, retired, or rich, I don't see how you could do it. This is where 'feature, not a bug' becomes quite relevant.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:52
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Isn't it specifically a requirement of joining NATO that you resolve all territorial disputes, one way or another? I, uh, don't think a country in the middle of a war and civil uprising qualifies.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:54
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Cerebral Bore posted:From what I've read Putin & co consider Dugin a goddamn crank, so you should maybe be a bit less credulous here. Even cranks can have good ideas sometimes, and that argument holds less and less water as you see them do the things the book suggests. Office Pig posted:This is where 'feature, not a bug' becomes quite relevant. Politics has always been for the wealthy and moderately-wealthy to gently caress around, argue philosophy, and rub shoulders. It's still true today, with the Republican v Democrat split being more about the role the state should play irrespective of impact.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:59
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quote:In order to establish whether a person is worthy of official backing, DCCC operatives will “rolodex” a candidate, according to a source familiar with the procedure. On the most basic level, it involves candidates being asked to pull out their smartphones, scroll through their contacts lists, and add up the amount of money their contacts could raise or contribute to their campaigns. If the candidates’ contacts aren’t good for at least $250,000, or in some cases much more, they fail the test, and party support goes elsewhere. This is some horrifying poo poo to read. America so badly needs spending limits on campaigns.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:03
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Fans posted:This is some horrifying poo poo to read. America so badly needs spending limits on campaigns. Haven't gotten a chance to read it yet, but Jesus. So the DCCC is basically bringing as much money into the system on purpose in order to maximize their potential grift. If you don't make them money, you get the boot. Burn that poo poo down.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:11
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Haven't gotten a chance to read it yet, but Jesus. It's not even the worst thing in the article. The DCCC sound like a bunch of irredeemable gently caress ups.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:21
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Grapplejack posted:Even cranks can have good ideas sometimes, and that argument holds less and less water as you see them do the things the book suggests. That's just confirmation bias talking. Dugin's book is a mishmash of disjointed ideas with the only common threads being that Russia should take over various neighbouring areas and stir up poo poo in the west. And as is common with works of the kind you can always find something in the book that the Russian government has done simply because there's so much poo poo in it, some of which Putin & co would be inclined to do anyway, such as trying to curtail US influence in eastern Europe, and some that is crackpottery at its finest, such as trying to split up loving China. So if Russia starts doing the absurd stuff that Dugin advocates you'll have a case, but until then you really don't.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:21
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https://twitter.com/virgiltexas/status/955899788813357057
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Jan 24, 2018 01:49
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Cerebral Bore posted:That's just confirmation bias talking. Dugin's book is a mishmash of disjointed ideas with the only common threads being that Russia should take over various neighbouring areas and stir up poo poo in the west. And as is common with works of the kind you can always find something in the book that the Russian government has done simply because there's so much poo poo in it, some of which Putin & co would be inclined to do anyway, such as trying to curtail US influence in eastern Europe, and some that is crackpottery at its finest, such as trying to split up loving China. The most "reasonable" parts of Dugunism are essentially a logical extension of Soviet foreign policy, and the insane stuff isn't happening for a reason. Russia's relationship with China for example is going in the opposite direction. Also, Russia being "just a regional power" and "on the edge of collapse" is just really isn't true at this point. A regional power isn't going to currying favor in multiple regions by its very own definition. Russia obviously isn't on the same league as the US or China, that doesn't mean their don't have influence beyond their immediate neighbors. Thats just silly as poo poo. Also it doesn't seem as Trump as rolled backed Russian sanctions to any serious extent and if anything was willing to send a limited number of Javelins to Ukraine. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 02:09
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https://twitter.com/rdevro/status/955979328361201664
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Jan 24, 2018 03:32
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Aaaaaaahhhhh https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/955986037402058752 AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Jan 24, 2018 03:50
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Office Pig posted:Aaaaaaahhhhh No no no, this is a GOOD thing you see! Duping GOP voters into reducing Republican seats in Congress! Silly conservatives, spending their money for the benefit of progressives! It's totally not going to end with Dems having their very own Freedom Caucus!
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Jan 24, 2018 03:55
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There are two people they have given to. https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/955986221653680128 Donations appear to be 2500 each. Not big names but gently caress any Dem that takes Koch money .
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Jan 24, 2018 04:00
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Schumer's case on Maddow for getting Graham-Durbin taken up by Ryan is apparently expecting Republicans to do the right thing and not the evil thing.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:01
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Office Pig posted:Schumer's case on Maddow for getting Graham-Durbin taken up by Ryan is apparently expecting Republicans to do the right thing and not the evil thing. It is a pr push. What other means do you want them to use? If he wasn't up there you'd be bitching as well. The whole point is to force Ryan to own the decision to kill daca , or to force him to pass it with Dem votes.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:03
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It is a pr push. What other means do you want them to use? If he wasn't up there you'd be bitching as well. Yes, Loam, non-answers and bad answers each have their own weight in terribleness. Not choosing to smash his dick on-air isn't going to make what he actually does any more commendable. Paul Ryan will never do a single thing that enrages the conservative wing and thereby jeopardizes his status as speaker of the house - that matters to him much more than anything with respect to public opinion.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:12
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Office Pig posted:Yes, Loam, non-answers and bad answers each have their own weight in terribleness. Not choosing to smash his dick on-air isn't going to make what he actually does any more commendable. Right, so why are you getting mad at the Democrats if Paul Ryan was never going to bring it to vote in the first place? That's pretty much out of their control. All they can do is force the issue, which is what they are trying to do. So, other than tilting at windmills here, what exactly do you want to happen?
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Jan 24, 2018 04:43
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Office Pig posted:Schumer's case on Maddow for getting Graham-Durbin taken up by Ryan is apparently laying on the ground and pissing straight up into the air and into his own mouth fyp
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Jan 24, 2018 05:41
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Right, so why are you getting mad at the Democrats if Paul Ryan was never going to bring it to vote in the first place? That's pretty much out of their control. All they can do is force the issue, which is what they are trying to do. Not this quote:Senate Democrats say there’s no appetite in their caucus for forcing another government shutdown if Republicans refuse to agree to an immigration deal by a March 5 deadline. quote:“We shouldn’t be overeager to get a deal, especially if [Sen.] Tom Cotton [R-Ark.] plays games and insists on an annual decrease in legal immigration to offset the Dreamers,” said the Democratic senator who requested anonymity to discuss party tactics. “We shouldn’t be afraid to walk away and let Republicans own this.” I didn't even consider the possibility that they wouldn't even bother with a second shutdown at all. Not even bothering with the pretense.
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Jan 24, 2018 05:43
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Majorian posted:My favorite line, because it perfectly sums up what's wrong with the Democratic Party and the performative pseudo-woke lanyards that enable them: A candidate who ran a PAC that gave money to elect Republicans and repeal a tax put in place to fund the ACA and she's backed by a different PAC trying to remove soft money from politics, meanwhile her support from the DCCC comes from her ability to mostly self fund. You have to hand it to the DCCC, they find the perfect candidates for ensuring the party's future.
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Jan 24, 2018 06:11
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Office Pig posted:I didn't even consider the possibility that they wouldn't even bother with a second shutdown at all. Not even bothering with the pretense. I don’t know why we even bother. Slate ran a piece on the Manning business. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 06:49
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https://twitter.com/jonathancohn/status/955959722041073669
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Jan 24, 2018 07:33
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Would that have even mattered? Wouldn’t they have just approved them later? Or is this a political theater thing?
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Jan 24, 2018 07:35
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