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Skwirl posted:They didn't do that push with Storm because they didn't own the movie rights to Storm. I don't think that was an insignificant reason they didn't push Storm but again, she's a mutant who's defined pretty much exclusively, in her entire run, by her association with the X-Men. She's not a Cannonball, or Sunspot, or Rogue or Kitty Pryde or Scarlet Witch or Wolverine where they spent as much time away from the mutants as with them; her forty-odd years of publishing history have been almost entirely with the X-Men besides that time she was married to BP which itself felt pretty orchestrated. If they solo pushed her, they would by necessity be cutting off a large portion of the readerbase who consider her (pretty fairly) as solely an X-Men character. Of course, then the argument is "a solo push could've increased her general recognition", which yeah, sure, but that's the catch-22 of a mutant character pretty much exclusively defined as a mutant character trying to be pushed onto the greater 616. Honestly, what they should've done in retrospect was make She-Hulk The Guy, especially considering how she has a bunch of runs people like and is an extremely compelling character with a powerset to make her a WW equivalent.
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Jan 23, 2018 23:55
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Honestly, what they should've done in retrospect was make She-Hulk The Guy, especially considering how she has a bunch of runs people like and is an extremely compelling character with a powerset to make her a WW equivalent. I'd bet She-Hulk's film disto rights are tied up with Hulk's at Universal.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:02
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In any case, my main point wasn't who is or isn't A-list; after all, I was also thinking of Nick Fury's dunking in Original Sin, who had the simultaneous effect of being omnipresent but only rarely having had any comics of his own in the modern era, and he's certainly never been a shelf-clearer for decades. Granted, I'm in the middle of an OS reread (as I keep diverting to events in the middle of Hickman's Avengers), and it's so much better when you know the big reveal, IMO. It's still not great, but it at least lets you see all the threads, as opposed to it just feeling random and disjointed like it did to me when I was reading it month-by-month.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:17
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Rhyno posted:I'd bet She-Hulk's film disto rights are tied up with Hulk's at Universal. I just don't think the idea that the MCU tail wags the dog is true. It's not an insignificant reason on what books they publish, sure, I won't disagree, but the idea that whether or not it can be movie-fied or otherwise being the only determinant over whether or not a book is authorized or who gets pushed has not born out in practice. If it was, we wouldn't have one of the most acclaimed (and longest running) Deadpool runs...ever, they wouldn't be publishing a half-dozen X-Men books, they certainly wouldn't have published Uncanny Avengers, and on and on and on. Especially considering the fact that they have MCU tie-in comics already made specifically to service the MCU and it's born out that whatever impact the MCU has on comics sales is minimal, I just don't think that Marvel's creative priorities are servicing a film division which they are separated entirely from. The most impact I think the MCU et al might have on the 616 is "well, this tv series is starting up so we should mirror it by making sure we at least have an ongoing on shelves just for visibility's sake", and even then they've done stuff like cancel the AoS ongoing. So.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:22
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:I don't think that was an insignificant reason they didn't push Storm but again, she's a mutant who's defined pretty much exclusively, in her entire run, by her association with the X-Men. She's not a Cannonball, or Sunspot, or Rogue or Kitty Pryde or Scarlet Witch or Wolverine where they spent as much time away from the mutants as with them; her forty-odd years of publishing history have been almost entirely with the X-Men besides that time she was married to BP which itself felt pretty orchestrated. If they solo pushed her, they would by necessity be cutting off a large portion of the readerbase who consider her (pretty fairly) as solely an X-Men character. Storm has several different arcs in Uncanny X-Men where, yes, it's a book titled Uncanny X-Men, but it's just her and new or previously minor characters
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Jan 24, 2018 00:32
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kill logan again and push laura instead
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Jan 24, 2018 00:36
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:. She's not a Cannonball, or Sunspot, or Rogue or Kitty Pryde or Scarlet Witch or Wolverine where they spent as much time away from the mutants as with them; I'm actually curious about this-- Scarlet Witch of course has primarily palled around with Avengers, and Wolverine has so much solo stuff to his name, but I don't know if Sunspot, Cannonball, Rogue, or Kitty Pryde have really escaped that gravitational pull notwithstanding their status quos over the past few years. In between (briefly) being a villain and being on the Avengers, Rogue was afaik a near-constant presence on mutant teams, and I think Kitty Pryde is permanently bound up with a certain kind of nostalgic pang that will always have writers bringing her back to X-Teams, but I think Cannonball and Sunspot could go either way. After Chris Claremont left New Mutants I think it was years before anyone had any idea what to do with Cannonball, and I'd be hard pressed to really say even Claremont ever really had a solid plan for Roberto. Cannonball kept showing up throughout the 90s and 2000s but Sunspot spent significant stretches of time in limbo-- I think of the characters you mentioned (aside from Wanda) I think they have the most potential to someday resonate as characters independent from the X-Men niche. Roberto in particular-- Hickman found a great hook for him, and when he left he was immediately passed off to Ewing, who developed that angle in really fun and interesting ways.
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Jan 24, 2018 00:53
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Most of the X-Men characters other than Wolverine have only really established lives outside the X-Men's corner of the universe in the past decade or so; I think Disassembled and House of M were the start of that. Obviously there's the counter-example of Onslaught, but that was more like all of the other Marvel books visiting X-Men territory.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:01
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It really doesn't compare to Wolverine's situation, but Gambit has had his share of solo adventures that didn't involve X-men or X-men villains.
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Jan 24, 2018 01:10
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So as someone who hasn't read the KSD run of Captain Marvel, what in particular made the series hard for other writers to tackle once she left it?
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Jan 24, 2018 01:37
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Viridiant posted:So as someone who hasn't read the KSD run of Captain Marvel, what in particular made the series hard for other writers to tackle once she left it? She focused pretty much exclusively on spacefaring adventures and CM's relationship to Mar-Vell, which, once that story's over and she's back on Earth, there's nothing else for her to really...do. She got reinvented as largely and almost entirely as a Cosmic character (she was on the Guardians at the time as well) and then got awkwardly stationed back on Earth, and like a lot of Marvel Cosmic characters their cosmic storylines are these massive, insane storylines that makes their powers go way out of whack, so when they get back onto Earth it makes them feel really dumb when they have to mix it up with like, the fuckin' Absorbing Man or some poo poo after going to war with an unknowable space god from the 6th dimension or some poo poo. Also KSD didn't really fix the central problem with Miss Marvel into CM, which was giving her a consistent (or, really, any) personality. Again, her most compelling character trait is her alcoholism, which is something that got sanded off and basically completely discarded as she became The Guy at Marvel. I think honestly giving her a Demon in The Bottle arc can do a lot for her. It allows a writer to basically recontextualize her personality while actually giving her one, tones down her powers/ makes her fighting some scrubleague villain believable over sort of inherently ridiculous, and most importantly gives her a sympathetic and relatable angle over "she's like really strong and stuff and also she used to be the fun drunk party girl but now she's Very Serious because She Means Something."
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Jan 24, 2018 01:46
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Didnt Busiek directly address her alcoholism throughout his run?
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Jan 24, 2018 01:56
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Rhyno posted:Didnt Busiek directly address her alcoholism throughout his run? Yes
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Jan 24, 2018 02:02
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Yeah and it was probably the last time the character did anything interesting.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:02
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Skwirl posted:I'm the one person who liked the Brian Reed series, and I liked her hanging out with the X-Men under Claremont. Me too. The issue with Carol and Logan going to the Pentagon was the very first X-men comic I ever read, and i instantly fell in love with both characters. Reeds series is a lot of fun too, though it does have some weird stuff, including her and Simon banging. Wonderman has been inside my 3 favorite marvel women; Carol, Wanda and Rogue. Honestly, I think she needs to be on earth and her book to be more focused on her and her relationships with other heroes. Have her do an story arc with Spider-Woman, and then have her have some one or two issue stories where she gets caught up in Gwenpool hijinx, then she goes off to Asgard to help Thor for a bunch of issues. Or put her in charge of a Avengers team. After No Surrender have Cap lead one and Carol lead one. CWII was a massive gently caress up (more so than SE, that at least has the out of it not being the Real Captain America), but you do something where no one really trusts her, but over the course of the story, she does.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:04
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I read through most of Ultimates the other day and while I liked it overall, Blue Marvel, Spectrum and America Chavez kind of took me out of the book. At the time it almost felt like I was reading some really polished fan fiction where this group of unknown (to me at least) power house destroyers of worlds form up in their own group. Like, apparently there's just been a bunch of cosmic tier heroes just chilling out all this time, and with all the invasions and world ending threats they've never bothered to just team up with the avengers or xmen or something? Blue Marvel was the only one I really bought as a new mega hero, and that's because I happened to read his origin miniseries about halfway through Ultimates. Which makes me think the series would have been a lot more enjoyable for me if there'd been some kind of build up to it. Maybe issue 1 could have just gone over who all these people are and why they're a big deal for the benefit of casual and lapsed fans like me. Another thing that seemed weird. When did Captain Marvel get so strong? I thought Rogue basically had her powers, but in Ultimates she had some super saiyan binary form. Could she always do that?
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Jan 24, 2018 02:10
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Basically Captain Marvels powers go like this Carol Danvers Boom! Pyschomagnetron Now has Mav-ell's powers of Super strength and flight and also energy manipulations Rogue gets grabby, loses her powers Hangs out with the X-men Gets kidnapped by the Brood They poke her Kree Brain and BAM she's got the powers of a White Hole Punches rogue into orbit when she comes looking for help frm the X-men. Carol, calling herself binary goes and hangs out with Cyclops's dad and his space pirates She eventually gets her regular powers back Somewhere a long the line they gave her a major power boost, I think it was during Reed's series? She is meant to be Thor level Strength. And my head Carol is a loyal friend, who is always trying to be better, but she tends to self sabotage and go off half cocked and make bad decisions. Also a big dork.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:18
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Rhyno posted:Didnt Busiek directly address her alcoholism throughout his run? Busiek had a CM run? I should read that
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Jan 24, 2018 02:20
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The point I'm making is that the book under KSD's pen sold super well When was this? 2012 Captain Marvel posted:42 60 Captain Marvel 1 $2.99 Marvel 41,582 2014 Captain Marvel posted:32 40 Captain Marvel 1 $3.99 Marvel 44,248 2015 Captain Marvel and the Carol Corps posted:44 38 Captain Marvel and Carol Corps 1 $3.99 Marvel 47,302 Her best selling book was 32nd and she struggled to stay just outside the top 100. KSD's Captain Marvel routinely sold slightly better than PAD's All New X-Factor.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:26
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Busiek had a CM run? I should read that His Avengers run from the late 90s.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:26
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Heathen posted:
Oh huh, never mind. I always heard that she brought the Carol Corps and KSD fans to the book and they bought the hell out of it.
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Jan 24, 2018 02:33
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Also I'm willing to bet a very very large amount of money they're putting Thompson on CM and hoping she can recapture the KSD magic, which is probably why 1) they're ending her current title so they can 2) relaunch it under a new push Someone laid this out in another thread I think, but Carol's problem really stems from the fact that no one can seem to decide what she is in the greater Marvel Universe. Like, I like the first part of KSD's CM, in that she's just a hero in NYC. She has some friends and neighbors around, she shoots the poo poo with Spider-Woman regularly, and every now and then she has to fight a monster. It's just her day. Maybe that didn't work for some people but it did for me, and I imagine maybe a few others BUT THEN, suddenly she's losing her memory because reasons, and joining the Guardians of the Galaxy! Unless she's not because almost immediately after, she starts going on solo space adventures in her series until suddenly, she gets called back to Earth, but she's running For the past almost decade now, Marvel's been pushing Carol Danvers, but no one can seem to settle on who exactly Carol Danvers is. It's one of those things where on a very basic level if you had to sum up a character in one sentence, you can do most of the big superheroes (e.g. "Peter Parker is a photographer with spider-powers" "Billionaire genius Tony Stark builds a robot suit and becomes Iron Man", "Doomed planet, desperate scentists, last hope, kindly couple" etc.) but Carol changes so often all you can do really is sum up her powers which themselves aren't really steady if you read up on her and personality. If Marvel could just pick a direction and run with it for a while, maybe they'd find their footing, even if they had a few missteps on the way. As it stands, I haven't been reading her book recently, but I know her space station got blown up, so I guess that's that out the window. I'm sure when she next shows up Marvel will spend no time putting her on a new and entirely different path than before. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 03:32
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I've always liked this post about Carol, it's why I've always been a fan of hers.quote:There’re some things that can’t be explained, but I will try. But those reasons are also kinda why she doesn't make a good lead heroine.
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Jan 24, 2018 03:40
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It sounds like there's real danger/potential for the movie to come out and define who she'll be in the comics for a long time after.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:28
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Based on who's writing the movie, i think that's a good thing. And yea, she needed to be more down to earth, literally. She needed to hang out with Jess and Patsy and Wanda and then moleman attacks and things like that. I don't agree that she shouldn't have fans in the comics, but I think they should be fans of the idealized, the hero Carol Danvers, not the self loathing and insecure woman she really is.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:45
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Lobok posted:It sounds like there's real danger/potential for the movie to come out and define who she'll be in the comics for a long time after. It's very possible. The Hollywood influence can't be avoided easily. Hell they only did ORIGIN because they were afraid Hollywood would beat them to it.
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Jan 24, 2018 04:47
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Busiek had a CM run? I should read that It was from the Live Kree or Die story-arc. She gets wasted and fights some Kree terrorists.
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Jan 24, 2018 06:33
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Wheat Loaf posted:Why has Marvel had such a difficult time making Carol work? The Deconnic run basically removing every trait and flaw that made her an interesting character. Civil War 2 making he outright irredeemable. Marvel's extremely blatant, yet at the same time half-assed somehow attempt to make her the center of attention for her movie. Take your pick.
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Jan 24, 2018 06:37
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Rhyno posted:Didnt Busiek directly address her alcoholism throughout his run? I believe Carol's alcoholism was Busiek's creation; he introduced it and it formed the basis for her arc throughout the run, also carrying over into his concurrent work on Iron Man, where Tony became Carol's sponsor.
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Jan 24, 2018 11:24
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Skwirl posted:I'm the one person who liked the Brian Reed series, and I liked her hanging out with the X-Men under Claremont. Claremont's Carol was always good. I cannot stand the Brian Reed stuff though. Was it him who did the supremely creepy and terrible arc where the Puppet Master turns a bunch of female superheroes into sex slaves? Because that's one of the worst comics I've ever read.
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Jan 24, 2018 11:53
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Jesus, I looked it up (it was in Brian Reed's run) and I forgot that one of the heroes he has get captured, shipped to Chile, and turned into a living sex doll is Cassie Lang. Also Tigra. What did Tigra ever do to you, Brian Reed? Seriously one of the worst things ever. It's absolutely astonishing what used to be considered acceptable in comics in the 2000s.
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Jan 24, 2018 12:15
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I had forgotten about all that, why did you make me remember? 
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Jan 24, 2018 13:45
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Reed even gave the Puppet Master a new power (a higher grade of magic clay that let him control people with a greater degree of precision) explicitly so that he could use the women as slave prostitutes. It's one of those comics arcs you can hardly think about without becoming both nauseated and angry.
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Jan 24, 2018 14:29
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I really enjoyed the music in Syndicate. Reminded me of the music in the RDJ Sherlock movies. Something like jaunty... with intrigue? Edit: Hmm... something tells me this isn't the right thread. I mean, RDJ does play Iron Man but that's a tenuous link. Lobok fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 14:54
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Android Blues posted:Reed even gave the Puppet Master a new power (a higher grade of magic clay that let him control people with a greater degree of precision) explicitly so that he could use the women as slave prostitutes. It's one of those comics arcs you can hardly think about without becoming both nauseated and angry. It’s the problem with mind control powers and “real world” logic. Evil people with mind control powers would obviously use them for rapey sex stuff. Not having real world logic in cape comics is a good way around this problem but it leads to problems of its own.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:06
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Jordan7hm posted:It’s the problem with mind control powers and “real world” logic. Evil people with mind control powers would obviously use them for rapey sex stuff. I think even assuming you want to be "realistic" about it, what's extra disgusting about the story is that this isn't an evil scheme the Puppet Master is planning to enact, which Carol then stops before anything too awful happens. Rather, it's been going on for months when the story begins, and Carol only stumbles on his rape compound after he kidnaps Arana and she follows up on the disappearance. What's more, the character never had powers like that until this story introduced them. Previously, he was always only capable of vague commands - "go here, fight this person," that kind of thing. To facilitate his creepy teenager rape story, Reed writes in a new powerset for this Lee and Kirby-era character that allows him fine motor control over his puppets so that, and this is explicit in the story, he can make his victims perform specific sex acts on clientele. It's all very much elective on the part of the writer. It feels like a super gross pervy fantasy about subjugating lady superheroes.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:36
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I don't think there's even anything wrong with having sexually menacing villains in comics, Alias is fairly good (and its TV adaptation is utterly fantastic), but that story in particular radiates skeevy exploitation and seems to lowkey loathe women. There's a right way to do it.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:49
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It's the same problem a lot of superpower stuff runs into. Yeah, mind control is inherently creepy to begin with and someone who is a shitlord would use it for awful awful stuff. That's 'realistic.' Why are you aiming for that realism when you're ignoring the 'realism' of literally every other superpower. You have so many heroes who don't do realistic-even-in-an-unrealistic-way stuff to solve problems because it isn't very interesting. There's a reason Superman doesn't just regularly toss invulnerable foes into space to drift helplessly until he can deal with them or whatever. You don't need to be realistic about what supervillains do. You can if you have a story that goes with it that you really feel is worth it but otherwise you're introducing Dr. Light bullshit for no reason.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:53
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Lobok posted:I really enjoyed the music in Syndicate. Reminded me of the music in the RDJ Sherlock movies. Something like jaunty... with intrigue? its best if you play as Edie the whole time. Yea, I forgot about the Puppetmaster arc. I like to think of when Carol pulls Marc Gargan out of the Venom Symbiot.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:57
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twistedmentat posted:its best if you play as Edie the whole time. I did! Except when I was made to play as Jacob.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:15
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