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Malpais Legate posted:I like the idea of an Elf Barbarian. Who fuckin cares if their Ability Scores don't fully support it? Barbarian smash anyway. 
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Jan 25, 2018 20:40
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Malpais Legate posted:I like the idea of an Elf Barbarian. Who fuckin cares if their Ability Scores don't fully support it? Barbarian smash anyway.
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Jan 25, 2018 22:20
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Splicer posted:Does a tortle monk's special unarmed claw go up with martial arts or do they have to choose between d4 + str slashing and dx + str monk unarmed? It's completely ambiguous and up to the DM, but luckily largely irrelevant by level 6.
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Jan 25, 2018 22:33
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So, what are the stand out adventures from this edition? Seems like a few of them are remakes of old school poo poo like Ravenloft or Tomb of Horrors.
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Jan 25, 2018 23:55
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Splicer posted:You will, four or five sessions in, when the novelty has worn off and you're a millstone around the party's neck who only ever achieves anything meaningful through obvious GM pity. Yeah you all really take this poo poo way too seriously.
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Jan 26, 2018 00:57
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There's nothing wrong with not being interested in charop, but D&D doesn't make any real attempt to support that mindset as a viable long-term playstyle.
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Jan 26, 2018 01:23
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Its really easy to make a reasonably optimal character, to the point that there really isn't an excuse.
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Jan 26, 2018 01:26
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CaPensiPraxis posted:Its really easy to make a reasonably optimal character, to the point that there really isn't an excuse. My main beef is this weird point of view that not starting with a +3 is somehow the same as spitting in your friends drinks and kicking their puppies. Going elf for a barbarian isn't making you a burden on the party at all
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Jan 26, 2018 01:37
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See here is the thing, it does. The window of optimization is pretty small and is even narrower for martials, for whom its almost entirely "have as close as possible to the maxed combat stat as possible". At low levels the 3 point difference doesn't seem big but it multiplies in importance with multiple attacks. Keep in mind that this edition does not guarantee or assume magic items. A base fighters damage per attack ONLY goes up with STR/DEX, and its much the same for all martials. Likewise, as casters get more flashy and powerful effects more and more of their resources ride on a high save calc stat. If your job in the party is single target damage (like fighter/paladin) and you aren't doing a great job because you're lagging behind at an increasing rate, someone who picked a class/build with a different role will hae to divert resources to pick up your slack. There is a certain amount of variability to each team and thats normal but.. Knowing these things and settind out to make a character thats intentionally weakening themselves better have a good reason or you're kind of a dick. This is a game where people pick class based on what a group already has. Don't be the "I'm not that kind of rogue" guy. CaPensiPraxis fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 01:42
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SunAndSpring posted:So, what are the stand out adventures from this edition? Seems like a few of them are remakes of old school poo poo like Ravenloft or Tomb of Horrors. Curse of Strahd is a more a Remaster of Ravenloft. Contains lots of stuff the original did not have. Tomb of Annhilation is quite different from Tomb of Horrors. (Less gently caress you traps.) And is quite solid as well.
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Jan 26, 2018 01:45
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Arthil posted:Yeah you all really take this poo poo way too seriously. You can shake your fist and declare "mechanics aren't everything!" as much as you want, but fact remains that D&D: The Fifth is a very crunchy system where player's declarative narrative power comes down to their numbers. Specially for martials, who don't get spellcasting and it's ability to just outright sidesteps the game mechanics at times. And doubly so for Barbarians, whose almost mind-numbingly straightforward gameplay interactions revolve around a) being hard to kill and b) dealing a lot of HP damage. And I could go at length about how they only appear to distinguish themselves in these two facets, and don't actually... but I believe that even without getting into an in-depth analysis of how they compare to the other classes, it should be evident that if you impair the class' base attributes by playing against type then you strip away even this modicum of gameplay identity. As always, what you choose to play is your prerrogative, but the decision to play mechanically subpar (nevermind incompetent) characters should be made by someone familiar with the system and the circumstances of their game - an informed decision, in other words. So when a newbie drops in, asking for mechanical advise, and if a naked elf barbarian is a good idea... telling them without any context whatsoever, because they're new and don't have one, that it's just "fine" and they should play what they want, is the worst loving piece of advise you can give.
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Jan 26, 2018 01:53
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Honestly a Elf Barbarian is not a bad idea. Go Wood Elf and you get a slight bonus to Wis and some Dex. Both are which are fairly useful for Barbs.
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Jan 26, 2018 02:46
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I feel like you guys have very very mean DMs. If I chose to play something like an Elf Barbarian my DM would probably work in a quest or method for me to get something like gauntlets of ogre power relatively early to make up for the deficiency. The viability of any given character class, in the end, depends entirely upon the DM. Now, would I recommend playing an Elf Barbarian for an AL Tomb of Annihilation? Probably not. But in a casual home game there is absolutely no reason to minmax. I agree that you guys take this stuff way too seriously. This isn't even just a 5E thing, you know. Every game that isn't a straight up story game will eventually come up with things that are more optimal than others, it doesn't mean everyone needs to be a Variant Human Wizard to have fun.
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Jan 26, 2018 02:54
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CaPensiPraxis posted:the 3 point difference
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Jan 26, 2018 02:59
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Here I just invented this for you elf barbarian people it was really hardquote:Feral Elves were cut off from the evolution of the other surface dwelling elves. As a result, they lack the intellectual sophistication of their cousins, relying more on their physical prowess to help them survive in the savage enchanted forest they call home. Spoken of in whispers around campfires, their legendary speed and strength combined with rumors of ritual cannibalism have made them a rarely seen but often feared facet of life on the edge of the forest. NeurosisHead fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 03:00
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Infinity Gaia posted:I feel like you guys have very very mean DMs. If I chose to play something like an Elf Barbarian my DM would probably work in a quest or method for me to get something like gauntlets of ogre power relatively early to make up for the deficiency. The viability of any given character class, in the end, depends entirely upon the DM. Now, would I recommend playing an Elf Barbarian for an AL Tomb of Annihilation? Probably not. But in a casual home game there is absolutely no reason to minmax. I agree that you guys take this stuff way too seriously. This isn't even just a 5E thing, you know. Every game that isn't a straight up story game will eventually come up with things that are more optimal than others, it doesn't mean everyone needs to be a Variant Human Wizard to have fun. Conspiratiorist posted:As always, what you choose to play is your prerrogative, but the decision to play mechanically subpar (nevermind incompetent) characters should be made by someone familiar with the system and the circumstances of their game - an informed decision, in other words. MMAgCh posted:I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be referring to. Are we assuming an elf barbarian would have STR 10/11 or something? I hope we're not actually assuming that. 12-14 and never gets any feats.
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Jan 26, 2018 03:10
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I like that I sparked a debate about this because I came up with character concepts before hitting the crunch. To be fair though most of my d20 background is Pathfinder where you can do that with no problem because there are THAT MANY books to support it. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 03:13
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I would be starting my Elfbarian with 15 STR cause why the hell wouldn't you? There is an elf with a +1 STR but it's UA content and not in any official book. Also, the character I built up on DnDBeyond would have maxed their main stats no problem and still have Great Weapon Master.
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Jan 26, 2018 03:19
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Arthil posted:I would be starting my Elfbarian with 15 STR cause why the hell wouldn't you?
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Jan 26, 2018 03:41
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Arthil posted:I would be starting my Elfbarian with 15 STR cause why the hell wouldn't you? There is an elf with a +1 STR but it's UA content and not in any official book. Let's break it down, shall we? Fresh out of chargen, our naked Wood Elf dual handaxe Barbarian has: STR 15 DEX 16 CON 15 INT 8 WIS 11 CHA 8 At 4 they pick up +1 STR/CON to round out their attributes and leave their AC at 16. 8 and 12 are STR to cap that, and if they make it to level 16 they can pick either Dual Wielder and switch to battleaxes or Resilient (WIS). At level 9, their 3-round average damage vs AC 16 is: 69.42 That's 6 attacks dealing 1d6+7 and 2 attacks dealing 1d6+3, with a 88% chance to hit. Now let's compare that to more optimized Barbarians. Variant Human PAM (halberd): 96.53 (+39%) GWM (greatsword): 108.72 (+56.61%) GWM+PAM (halberd): 115.07(+65.75%) Any STR-bonused race PAM: 86.19 (+24.15%) GWM: 96.25 (+38.64%) GWM+PAM: 99.56 (+43.41%) Calculations do not account for Brutal Critical or PAM's reaction attacks, which offer a higher comparative benefit to Halberd builds. So yeah, as CaPensiPraxis said the optimization margin is narrow, so let's take a middle-of-the-road Barbarian build that starts at STR 16 and then just grabs a big weapon and Great Weapon Master. Half-elf, since it gets the same racial benefits as our wood elf here. This dude, at level 9, is going to be dealing almost 40% more damage per fight than our naked elf, probably with better AC, without needing any DM hand-outs. That's the kind of disparity we're looking at. This is the competence baseline, and it's practically half another Barbarian contributing to weapon swinging. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 04:09
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I'm pretty much running rolled stats (players roll and pick a single array that everyone gets) from here on out just so players have a shot at picking outside their race/class optimal picks.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:16
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One can always say "I acknowledge that an Elf Barbarian is less than optimal, but I choose to do it regardless". That's a lot more productive than trying to argue that it actually is optimal, or close enough to it that it doesn't matter, or whether or not optimization is a good thing.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:One can always say "I acknowledge that an Elf Barbarian is less than optimal, but I choose to do it regardless". When someone comes in and says "Hey, does X work in this system?" what do you think they're asking? To me it sounds like they want a value judgment on the choice they're putting forth. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're right and this is all an unproductive discussion, because all they really wanted was affirmation- their biases reinforced. It doesn't matter if the choice is optimal or not, because a good DM will fix it for them. Is that what we're doing now? Is this EN World? Am I the crazy one here for thinking that people asking for mechanical advise want mechanical advise? 
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Jan 26, 2018 04:29
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CaPensiPraxis posted:
Particulary for an AL/strangers game, less so with a well knit, long standing group.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:30
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Conspiratiorist posted:When someone comes in and says "Hey, does X work in this system?" what do you think they're asking? Comrade, I was agreeing with you. You're absolutely correct regarding how far behind an Elf Barbarian would be relative to anyone else. I was referring to people who are trying to deflect from your points.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:31
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gradenko_2000 posted:Comrade, I was agreeing with you. You're absolutely correct regarding how far behind an Elf Barbarian would be relative to anyone else. Ah, I see, it was a post written in natural language.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:35
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Conspiratiorist posted:Let's break it down, shall we?
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Jan 26, 2018 04:36
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Conspiratiorist posted:When someone comes in and says "Hey, does X work in this system?" what do you think they're asking? I could have phrased my question better than "does X work?" because of course X can be done. A more accurate question would have been "Can I do X and still be at least average in quality?" That being said the advice I'm seeing is actually really good. I didn't even consider such thing as a Bladesinger which is more or less exactly what I want in terms or "Wardancer Elf"
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Jan 26, 2018 04:37
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So is having 14 CON as a fighter also suboptimal in a really tragic way or is that more manageable than having a +2 compared to a +3 to hit?
SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 04:53
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SunAndSpring posted:So is having a fighter also suboptimal in a really tragic way? Yes.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:56
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MMAgCh posted:I feel like this doesn't say anything about elf barbarians as a rule so much as it shows the relative crappiness of two-weapon fighting, though. Which, yes, I do recognise is what the original poster was asking about, but it is probably worth discriminating between that and the race/class combo in general. Well if we want to discriminate that a bit more, a level 9 GWM elf with a greatsword is: 83.79 So a Variant Human and a STR-bonused race are 37.31% and 18.8% behind on damage, respectively. There are a number of factors that affect it, but general rule of thumb is that +1 to your combat stat bonus translates into a ~17% damage increase for martials. Gridlocked posted:I could have phrased my question better than "does X work?" because of course X can be done. Bladesinger is a very badly designed archetype, because it tricks you into thinking you should get in melee, but actually you're a d6 HP full wizard and your defensive abilities work at any range - so the optimal way to play is to activate your defense buff and then gently caress off to do wizardry from a safe distance. HOWEVER, XGE added a new spell called Shadow Blade, which conjures a very high powered weapon that scales with spell level, and that furthermore synergizes incredibly well with the Elven Accuracy feat, finally giving Bladesingers a reason to get in there and swing. So your combat flowchart goes something like on your first turn popping off Bladesong and casting a buff or instant aoe or any other wizardry poo poo (with no concentration), and on your following turn activating your [s]light[/i] shadowsaber and start wrecking faces. I thiiiink that going the Eldritch Knight route (EK 8 then MCing Wizard 2 to poach Bladesong before coming back to EK for Extra Attack [2]) works better, but I suppose it's up to taste on whether you want to be more of a Wizard or more of a Fighter in regards to general resilience and spell access.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:00
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MMAgCh posted:I feel like this doesn't say anything about elf barbarians as a rule so much as it shows the relative crappiness of two-weapon fighting, though. Which, yes, I do recognise is what the original poster was asking about, but it is probably worth discriminating between that and the race/class combo in general. Yeah I kind of blanked out on their entire reply when they started talking about dual wielding and pumping their DEX up that high. I'd be using a battleaxe, or maybe a greatsword and going with GWM, especially a greatsword if dipped into Fighter cause it works well with GWF. Like a Dex Barbarian? Don't do that as a newbie, at all. Just wanting to be an elf? I don't see the issue.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:00
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SunAndSpring posted:So is having 14 CON as a fighter also suboptimal in a really tragic way or is that more manageable than having a +2 compared to a +3 to hit? More manageable. Naturally you want both, but anything that helps you resolve combat faster (like dealing more damage) is generally way better than merely enduring longer in combat. It's the same logic as to why in-combat healing is a bad call unless it's to pick back up someone who went down. Combat for Martials is a damage race: the faster you can bring an end to it, the less resources (such as HP or patience) you have to consume.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:07
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Warlock pact of blade with hexblade patron could work for a half-elf without any handwaving, in so much as any pact of blade character "works". You may well end up just using eldritch blast even after all that buy in on the blade.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:13
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I'm pretty much running rolled stats (players roll and pick a single array that everyone gets) from here on out just so players have a shot at picking outside their race/class optimal picks. I mean, I love your intention but rolled stats dont even help that lol. Honestly the answer is 'let people change around one of their +X stat bonuses to whatever they want that isnt the same as the other +X stat bonus'.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:16
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Arthil posted:Like a Dex Barbarian? Don't do that as a newbie, at all. Just wanting to be an elf? I don't see the issue. That's the statement I was trying to make. Like, don't kid yourself into Dexterity Barbarian. But that math is just misleading. Human Variant Barbarian with ALL of the optimal damage output choices and feats VS an Elf Barbarian running with all sorts of bonus handicaps is never going to compare.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:20
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SunAndSpring posted:So is having 14 CON as a fighter also suboptimal in a really tragic way or is that more manageable than having a +2 compared to a +3 to hit? The last hit point is the only one that matters.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:22
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Is there a comprehensive list of what classes I am allowed to play and how I am allowed to play them anywhere tia
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Jan 26, 2018 05:30
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Conspiratiorist posted:Well if we want to discriminate that a bit more, a level 9 GWM elf with a greatsword is: 83.79 …man, independent of those other considerations, variant humans and GWM are kind of silly, aren't they?
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Jan 26, 2018 05:33
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Malpais Legate posted:That's the statement I was trying to make. Like, don't kid yourself into Dexterity Barbarian. But that math is just misleading. Human Variant Barbarian with ALL of the optimal damage output choices and feats VS an Elf Barbarian running with all sorts of bonus handicaps is never going to compare. As I mentioned on another page. If you really wanted to be super optimal, everything would be a Variant Human. but that's boring as poo poo.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:35
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