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Kurieg posted:Times and people change, culture changes. And pretending that they didn't is actively harmful. To the people that nuWW is targeting, times haven't changed. The audience that is really really into the awful dumb stupid garbage-rear end """edgy""" poo poo from 90's WW are basically stuck in that XTREME 90's counter-culture and haven't matured out of it (and probably never will). Much like Swedracula, they peaked in the 90's and have become, essentially, WoD grognards--unable to let go of that brief, glorious time when (in their mind) the World of Darkness was culturally relevant and was flipping the middle finger to The question remains is if that audience is big enough to justify regressing back to the dumb 90's material full-force, in much the way that D&D did with 5e. Given the vocal reaction against the material so far I don't think that's the case, and nuWW is going to be pissing away money and talent on one man's vanity project and have little to show for it.
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Jan 26, 2018 03:40
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There's a tension in the fanbase between that group - which also crosses over a lot with people who are more or less just 'anti-PC' as they see it and view any suggestion of good taste or socially responsible writing as dumb leftist nonsense - and the more moderate group of oWoD 90s Guys. I fit more in that end. We love the ridiculously 90s themes and stylings of the games, but also recognize that some aspects have been done better since or probably shouldn't have been done in the first place (e.g. Gypsies) and also, to an extent, that the game world is a 'living' setting insofar as it takes place in our world and its attitudes shouldn't remain static without good reason (e.g. dealing with ancient vampires or very grumpy spirits). I'd like to think we're more common but these days I doubt it.
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Jan 26, 2018 03:54
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Loomer posted:I'd like to think we're more common but these days I doubt it. Could be attrition. Why try and deal with the knuckle-draggers when they won't argue in good faith? It's usually much more healthy to just move on to something else. People get older, have responsibilities, and can't sit online all day making their case against a bunch of idiots. Of course, the problem there is that the knuckle-draggers never shut up and so will just stay in their corner, making GBS threads in their hands and flinging poop at everyone, until they're forced out of every halfway-healthy community. Which as we're all aware, is no easy task. Theoretically it'd probably be easier in the WoD community compared to say D&D, in that people like you (and me!) who like the ridiculous 90's stuff but hate the problematic crap can just team up with nWoD fans and tell the greasy nutjobs to gently caress off, but in practice that isn't quite working out.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:05
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Slimnoid posted:To the people that nuWW is targeting, times haven't changed. The audience that is really really into the awful dumb stupid garbage-rear end """edgy""" poo poo from 90's WW are basically stuck in that XTREME 90's counter-culture and haven't matured out of it (and probably never will). Much like Swedracula, they peaked in the 90's and have become, essentially, WoD grognards--unable to let go of that brief, glorious time when (in their mind) the World of Darkness was culturally relevant and was flipping the middle finger to This is a reasonable analogy but there are some major differences. While 5e regressed mechanically from previous editions and in many ways panders to grognards it also went out of its way to say 'hey, people can play gay or transgender characters shut up about it.' It was an extremely token thing to do and maybe even a little dishonest given their choice of community playtesters, but to the people they were targeting - grognards - it was pretty new and in some cases even controversial. 5e is a lot of things but it is at most a milquetoast RPG. It's inoffensive and bland, and takes zero risks with modest production values. What this means is that while it was designed to real in grogs it also picked up a fair number of new players through things like podcasts and social media. Not because it's a great game but because it's a culturally accessible game with a lot of coverage. nuWW cannot possibly hope to hit that kind of stride with the sort of material they've been writing unless they cater specifically to the altright.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:39
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Mendrian posted:nuWW cannot possibly hope to hit that kind of stride with the sort of material they've been writing unless they cater specifically to the altright. Fair point. I don't think nuWW is self-aware enough to believe otherwise though, and they're gonna keep on truckin' and being an embarrassment until they either fail to deliver anything meaningful, or they do something so monumentally stupid that Paradox has to get involved.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:21
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Slimnoid posted:Fair point. I don't think nuWW is self-aware enough to believe otherwise though, and they're gonna keep on truckin' and being an embarrassment until they either fail to deliver anything meaningful, or they do something so monumentally stupid that Paradox has to get involved. I've been running nMage and when I read 'Paradox' immediately thought "the howling void of unreasoning chaos that says nothing and contains all horrors?" Then thought "sounds right in context" and didn't realize what I'd read for about fifteen seconds. I think that speaks to the quality of nuWW's work.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:54
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Mendrian posted:nuWW cannot possibly hope to hit that kind of stride with the sort of material they've been writing unless they cater specifically to the altright.
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Jan 26, 2018 12:05
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Yawgmoth posted:Just put in sidebars all titled "this actually happened and is happening" with the corporation name and executives involved. Can't do it for werewolf any more, since Changing Ways was my last book. Not because of anyone involved or any fuckery at all; my day job got way too busy to the point that doing things in a timely fashion just wasn't possible, so I stepped down. May make a game specifically about hitting out at corporate bastardry at some point, but I'd be competing with Leverage. Hrm. Maybe something like Tales of the Space Marines, where you're playing the heads of corporations doing evil things and you have to try to realise that what you're doing is capital-E Evil... hrm.
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Jan 26, 2018 12:28
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Scion origin text out to backers. Check your backer kit accounts!
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Jan 27, 2018 06:35
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JesterOfAmerica posted:Scion origin text out to backers. Check your backer kit accounts! e: nevermind I figured it out hell yes, hopefully hero is coming soon Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 07:14
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Skimming, I'm glad to see they don't have the terrible feats of strength table anymore, but now it seems like there's just nothing about beef-flexing under heavy things which is also not great in my opinion. Still, better than that loving ancient table of nonsense.
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Jan 27, 2018 08:49
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That Old Tree posted:Skimming, I'm glad to see they don't have the terrible feats of strength table anymore, but now it seems like there's just nothing about beef-flexing under heavy things which is also not great in my opinion. Still, better than that loving ancient table of nonsense. Page 61.
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Jan 27, 2018 14:09
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It's a lot less comprehensive and is based on successes, rather than 'dice in the pool.', now. But at least we know that Samson got at least twelve successes to tear down a temple keystone pillars! It also says that having Scale pretty much lets you ignore/exceed the chart. unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 14:51
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I am fascinated by the namedrop of Mammon as the patron of Wall Street. Mammon is a Syriac word referring to money, but Mammon didn't become associated with a god/demon until the Middle Ages and stuff like Piers Plowman or various theologians writing about Mammon as a demon. Mammon was never an ancient god. E: basically it speaks to me of an Abrahamic 'pantheon' of angels and demons, with the role of God being cast to higher mysteries, in the same way the Palas work for Buddhism. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 16:29
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Mors Rattus posted:I am fascinated by the namedrop of Mammon as the patron of Wall Street. Mammon is a Syriac word referring to money, but Mammon didn't become associated with a god/demon until the Middle Ages and stuff like Piers Plowman or various theologians writing about Mammon as a demon. Mammon was never an ancient god. TBF it is a game where new gods can arise and be created. And I think there's a sidebar namedropping the Palas.
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Jan 27, 2018 16:39
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Kurieg posted:TBF it is a game where new gods can arise and be created. And I think there's a sidebar namedropping the Palas. The Palas are mentioned after the list of pantheons intended to be in Hero. And yeah, they mention Columbia as a new god, too, the goddess of Democracy and America, whose dominant nature is still taking shape.
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Jan 27, 2018 16:42
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Yeah, the sidebar on the Statue of Liberty and how new york deals with god battles in battery park was about as far as I got last night before going to bed.
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Jan 27, 2018 16:49
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One of the things I didn't really gronk about 1e Scion was that it had this weird mishmash of 'it's just like the world you know!' and 'Gods have always been around and interfere with the lives off men.' How do they explain all of human history with gods around?
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Jan 27, 2018 20:45
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Scion 1e didn’t. Scion 2e explicitly goes ‘suspend your disbelief, accept that it looks like our world but people are way more superstitious and know the gods exist, and then come up with excuses as to why, because fate’ That said a lot of the similarities to the real world are superficial and broad, rather than in the details.
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Jan 27, 2018 20:47
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Yeah - so Scion's World has a Norway like ours, but the Scion Norway has government-run Troll preserves.
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Jan 27, 2018 20:57
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The first thing the world section also recommends you turn up or down how much the setting resembles the real world at will, using lawyer-friendly examples of Wakanda and Themyscira for major divergences. That said even the base setting has stuff like amazon neighborhoods, roving biker centaur gangs in the american southwest, and the Shen having to create a new constellation because airplanes kept accidentally crashing into the Heavenly City. There's no supernatural masquerade here. It's more like a comic book setting where people just accept they will randomly (but rarely) run into some crazy myth bullshit. Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 21:11
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Yeah, there was a bit in the kickstarter preview for werewolves about "countries needing to revise long standing lycanthropy laws" in the same way you have things like ancient unenforceable laws in Ohio about eating ice cream in public.
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Jan 27, 2018 21:19
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30-some pages into the Scion pdf and my feeling about the setting is that it's the best parts of Nobilis worldbuilding (everything is as real or valid as it makes sense to be narratively and if you look at things from the relevant angle, weird non-geographical places exist and can be reached through strange means,) but with a lot more Classics namedropping that makes it a little easier to wrap my head around. Also, the casual mentions of weird, campaign-in-and-of-themselves things like the fact that manticores roam Western Asia eating people, the Catholic Church of Rome acknowledges and gives worship time to other gods, and the Orisha are both the creators of Libertalia, The Uncharted Pirate City, and an object lesson in how intervention fucks up your pantheon. It's just all cool, and my campaign notes doc is currently a list of page references of things to jump back into later.
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Jan 27, 2018 21:35
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:the Catholic Church of Rome acknowledges and gives worship time to other gods  Just fyi, this is up there with "the Pope is the antichrist" for things anti-Catholics actually believe. Have some Chick tracts:           
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Jan 27, 2018 23:19
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It is implied in one of the bits that Christians in general are somewhat annoyed at having to share time with other pantheons but it's like, what can you do? Ecumenicalism and peace are more important than trying to kick the Theoi out of Rome, especially since they were there first. There is also an implication that the saints, angels and demons of Christianity may have 'deities' of their own, since Mammon gets namedropped, so presumably you have Scions of Michael out there. (Chosen or Created rather than born, I'd think, since Michael ain't getting his gently caress on.)
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Jan 27, 2018 23:22
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Let's be fair I bet there's a lot of Norse/Lutheran timeshares in the World.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:25
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Mors Rattus posted:There is also an implication that the saints, angels and demons of Christianity may have 'deities' of their own, since Mammon gets namedropped, so presumably you have Scions of Michael out there. (Chosen or Created rather than born, I'd think, since Michael ain't getting his gently caress on.) If an angel is getting their gently caress on some really, really bad poo poo is going to go down. Just check with the antediluvian Giants and the Watchers.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:29
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unseenlibrarian posted:Let's be fair I bet there's a lot of Norse/Lutheran timeshares in the World.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:37
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I'm very happy that 2e seems to be much more focused on 'modern mythology' than before, the namedrops, the more fluid feeling pantheons, the focus on belief over rigid pantheons and all, very cool seeming.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:09
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Tulul posted:
Yes, but this is a) presented strictly as a deviation from reality in a fantastic world and b) part of a general trend of softened henotheism rather than singling out the Catholic Church as an outlier. It's not a statement about Catholicism, it's a statement about the World.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:28
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Does anyone get how path connections work in this? It sounds like every time you use a contact, they get more dots and tags, which feels weird.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:45
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I Am Just a Box posted:Yes, but this is a) presented strictly as a deviation from reality in a fantastic world and b) part of a general trend of softened henotheism rather than singling out the Catholic Church as an outlier. It's not a statement about Catholicism, it's a statement about the World. yea it's not "THOSE DIRTY CATHOLICS AREN'T REAL CHRISTIANS" it's 'in this world the fact that Zeus is just as real as God is not arguable, naturally and to avoid encouraging outright bigotry as a justified character trait it's fair to assume most major faiths would have a softer stance on 'heresy' in a world like that'
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Jan 28, 2018 00:51
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I mean I imagine they just take the view that those Gods exist and are beneath Yahweh and Christ. If they demonstrably exist (and they do in that setting) it would change the course of religious development of pretty much every system of religious thought.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:54
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yea I imagine Catholic doctrine would basically boil down to 'yea but God's above those guys' but you can't really argue that that dude doesn't exist in Scion world.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:03
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They might contest their divinity, mind. But things would've diverged a lot if you could demonstrate, for reals, that Babylon took over Judah specifically because Marduk actually beat up Yahweh rather than allowing the innovative development of the idea that Yahweh had allowed his peoples' defeat on purpose.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:05
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I guess my only real disappointment at this point will be waiting for Scion: Hero in order to run games with characters with any Legend and powers, since Scion: Origin is basically the WoD blue book.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:06
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sexpig by night posted:yea I imagine Catholic doctrine would basically boil down to 'yea but God's above those guys' but you can't really argue that that dude doesn't exist in Scion world. That's how a very great deal of extant christopaganism handles it, so probably.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:15
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Night10194 posted:I mean I imagine they just take the view that those Gods exist and are beneath Yahweh and Christ. If they demonstrably exist (and they do in that setting) it would change the course of religious development of pretty much every system of religious thought. I mean, most of the stories in the Torah that talk about God and his people are not against the idea of other gods existing, just that they weren't poo poo compared to The Big G. The commandment is, after all, "You shall have no other gods before me," and it wasn't until the Babylonian captivity and exile that the commandment progressed from "because we have a deal, and He is a jealous and wrathful god" into "because they're all lies and phantoms compared to His glory (and He's still got jealousy issues)," as the poo poo they were going through made them more and more conservative and focused on their religion as a uniting factor. In the Catholic sense, the Catechisms as they exist would pretty comprehensively forbid idolatry or honoring anything other than the Divine or direct reflections/conduits thereof, because He is the only divinity. However, if Catholicism as we know it came out of a world where divinity is pretty provably multitudinous, the Catechism's statement would probably be along the lines of rattling off the Apostle's Creed and following it with "but don't be an idiot and piss off Poseidon cause even if he's not the ultimate source of divine truth he can and will kill your rear end if you don't give him a proper prayer when you get on a boat." (Note I'm not a religious scholar here, I'm just going off what I remember from a few courses and discussions) e;fb
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Jan 28, 2018 01:16
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The reason I specifically point out the Babylonian Captivity is that's the point it which things start to roll over from 'Yahweh is the best god and the one we worship and better than all these loser gods' to 'Yahweh is so awesome that he actually used the Babylonians to defeat us because we had broken covenant, not because Marduk has defeated him in battle and his people have defeated us.' as a way to justify continuing Yahweh worship after the kingdom was destroyed, eventually morphing specifically into 'Marduk isn't real at all, everything is just Yahweh' If you actually saw Marduk saying 'Hey, Son of Marduk, go beat up the Son of Yahweh in ritual combat so that I can prove I am champion and king of the Gods' or whatever Scions were up to back then and this was a thing that happened on the reg that religious development may not have occurred.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:25
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You know, I want to know what that section of the bible where God loses a wrestling match is like in the Scion world.
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