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Expect My Mom posted:your arguments for it seems couched in gender norms rather than focusing in trans representation. Well, overthrowing gender norms in order to defy the confines of cissexuality is an essential element of being gender queer. If it was just a matter of Miko being gay, she wouldn't need to be equal to Akira and Koda in both character and physicality. It's just impossible to ignore the literal physical transformation of becoming a devilman when making a trans/gender queer reading. Improbable Lobster posted:You seem to be putting forth your transgender interpretation of Miko exclusively so that Miki and Miko aren't "really" lesbians. All of your arguments have relied on gender essentialist interpretations of behaviour and femininity. None of Miko's coding implies that she's transgender unless both Akira and Ryo are also transmen. It's explicit that Akira and Koda underwent a hypermasculine transformation when they became devilmen, so the masculine dimensions of the demonic transition are undeniable. Endorph posted:so wait, miko becomes a spider-woman because spiders have different gender dynamics than humans because female spiders are stronger, but then she's also meant to be a transman? so she exhibits a male gender identity by taking on traits of a female animal? wouldn't her taking on traits of an animal species that has a dominant female imply that the transformation is about her becoming a woman that can overpower men, as opposed to about becoming a man? Spider-women are dangerous thematically, because they treat men in the same way as a man would view a woman as a sexual object - something to be consumed and discarded. A strict reading of Miko being a spider-woman would still imply cissexuality, but it's also the physical changes to her human form and the masculine changes to her character, which have transgender and gender queer overtones.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:08
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's explicit that Akira and Koda underwent a hypermasculine transformation when they became devilmen, so the masculine dimensions of the demonic transition are undeniable. Oh yeah I forgot that only men can be sporty, fit or confident
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Jan 28, 2018 05:16
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Improbable Lobster posted:Oh yeah I forgot that only men can be sporty, fit or confident Again, you're being reductive by focusing on being sporty, fit, and confident. Miki also embodies those traits, but nobody questions that Miki is a feminine figure because she has other character traits that are explicitly feminine. It's weird that somebody would try to deny that aggression and dominance are associated with masculinity. You tried to bring up Ryo to disregard the masculine interpretation, but Ryo isn't demonic, he's an angel.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:21
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Well, overthrowing gender norms in order to defy the confines of cissexuality is an essential element of being gender queer. And yet you seem unable to move away from gender norms. Hence why you're getting such blowback on this. quote:If it was just a matter of Miko being gay, she wouldn't need to be equal to Akira and Koda in both character and physicality. I don't see how this follows. She's a devilman just like those two, so of course she's going to exhibit similar changes to her character and physique. The boost to her confidence/assertiveness is probably how she found it in herself to reconcile that her feelings were gay and not hatred. quote:It's explicit that Akira and Koda underwent a hypermasculine transformation when they became devilmen, so the masculine dimensions of the demonic transition are undeniable. It's explicit that they both became very sexual and violent and aggressive, yeah. So did Miko, but those aren't uniquely masculine traits. I'd grant you something here, but I still don't think you're arguing in good faith so I deny you even this much. I draw ire with your read of this on a personal level because I'm in love with a trans girl and I find I am forced to often confront her fears of "being too masculine". The way you read certain traits as being specifically masculine undermines her identity as a woman, which genuinely upsets me. Your arguments imply that a girl can't be sporty and confident without surrendering femininity.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:27
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You tried to bring up Ryo to disregard the masculine interpretation, but Ryo isn't demonic, he's an angel. No, I didn't.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:29
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what are angels but demons from aboveXinder posted:I draw ire with your read of this on a personal level because I'm in love with a trans girl and I find I am forced to often confront her fears of "being too masculine". The way you read certain traits as being specifically masculine undermines her identity as a woman, which genuinely upsets me. Your arguments imply that a girl can't be sporty and confident without surrendering femininity. You can be a gay woman and also strong and confident and feminine
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Jan 28, 2018 05:35
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I've been dating a transgender man and he hasn't turned into a giant spider even once
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Jan 28, 2018 05:39
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's explicit that Akira and Koda underwent a hypermasculine transformation when they became devilmen, so the masculine dimensions of the demonic transition are undeniable. How is this even an issue? Why are you discounting the face-value simplest answer? She's transspecies, and thus changed. Like holy poo poo. Xinder posted:Maybe those are aspects of being a devilman and not of masculinity?? thiiisssss
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Jan 28, 2018 05:39
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what does it mean if i dream of being a buff, confident badass who knows karate and also has big-rear end titties
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Jan 28, 2018 05:40
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Improbable Lobster posted:I've been dating a transgender man and he hasn't turned into a giant spider even once You don't know that man well enough then, clearly. Transgendered are all devilmen. Devilpeople? Devil something.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:45
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The Colonel posted:what does it mean if i dream of being a buff, confident badass who knows karate and also has big-rear end titties Means you have pleasant dreams. I wish you all the luck in fulfilling them.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:49
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Xinder posted:And yet you seem unable to move away from gender norms. Hence why you're getting such blowback on this. The relation to gender norms is exactly what makes being transgender so transgressive, by defying the proscribed characteristics of the inborn sex to embody the traits of the opposite. quote:I don't see how this follows. She's a devilman just like those two, so of course she's going to exhibit similar changes to her character and physique. The boost to her confidence/assertiveness is probably how she found it in herself to reconcile that her feelings were gay and not hatred. She isn't just confident and assertive, she's physically & characteristically intimidating and aggressive. She even intimidates the girl in the locker room into running away by displaying physical dominance. quote:It's explicit that they both became very sexual and violent and aggressive, yeah. So did Miko, but those aren't uniquely masculine traits. I'd grant you something here, but I still don't think you're arguing in good faith so I deny you even this much. The transgender and gender queer interpretation is informed by the context of the changes she undergoes from the pre-devilman stage. Before she becomes a devilman Miko is the most feminine character in the show, and after becoming a devilman she's physically and characteristically equal to the male devilmen. If achieving physical and social equality with men isn't an important element of being a trans man, then what is? Improbable Lobster was being dismissive because Miko doesn't order testosterone, but the transformation of becoming a devilman is an easily read metaphor for gender reassignment therapies. quote:I draw ire with your read of this on a personal level because I'm in love with a trans girl and I find I am forced to often confront her fears of "being too masculine". The way you read certain traits as being specifically masculine undermines her identity as a woman, which genuinely upsets me. Your arguments imply that a girl can't be sporty and confident without surrendering femininity. Your girlfriend is preoccupied with her feminity because she wants to be a woman. It's important to show that she can be a woman while also having some masculine characteristics, because nobody is exclusively one way or the other unless they're attempting to embody toxic masculinity. I'm not implying that girls can't be sport and confident, I only brought up the change to Miko's wardrobe because she completely eschews all feminine characteristics. Even before she becomes a devilman she mostly wears form concealing tops that hide her big boobs, which is probably why a lot of people didn't even notice them until after she had transitioned. Miki is sporty and confident while also being feminine coded. She has characteristics which define her outside of those traits. I'm accused of making gender essentialist interpretations of a transgender reading (which is, I mean, how else is a transgender reading supposed to be made?), but dismissing a transgender or gender queer reading because of Miko's big boobs is a sexually essentialist interpretation of gender. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 05:49
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It's actually pretty easy to interpret characters as trans without being gender essentialist or vaguely homophobic
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Jan 28, 2018 05:52
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Improbable Lobster posted:It's actually pretty easy to interpret characters as trans without being gender essentialist or vaguely homophobic You can't talk about being gender queer or transgender without dealing directly with gender.
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Jan 28, 2018 05:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You can't talk about being gender queer or transgender without dealing directly with gender. Yes but you can talk about gender without being gender essentialist. Well not you, you're a complete dipshit but the general "you".
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Jan 28, 2018 05:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The relation to gender norms is exactly what makes being transgender so transgressive, by defying the proscribed characteristics of the inborn sex to embody the traits of the opposite. Have you been around since the 90s? Being trans doesn't mean you're immediately the exact opposite of all other women. You continue to accuse others of being reductive when you're the one who keeps pushing that if one acts a certain way, they must be a man. Gender is a fuckton more complicated than that and I highly suggest doing some learning, because if this is your attempt to be an ally you're doing a piss-poor job of it. quote:She isn't just confident and assertive, she's physically & characteristically intimidating and aggressive. She even intimidates the girl in the locker room into running away by displaying physical dominance. Yeah, that's cool. Ladies can do that. quote:The transgender and gender queer interpretation is informed by the context of the changes she undergoes from the pre-devilman stage. Before she becomes a devilman Miko is the most feminine character in the show, and after becoming a devilman she's physically and characteristically equal to the male devilmen. If achieving physical and social equality with men isn't an important element of being a trans man, then what is? She goes from reserved to confident. She has the confidence to confront herself and understand who she is as a person. She changes because she becomes a devilman but she isn't also becoming a man. The last sentence there is pretty decent, though. quote:Your girlfriend is preoccupied with her feminity because she wants to be a woman. It's important to show that she can be a woman while also having some masculine characteristics, because nobody is exclusively one way or the other unless they're attempting to embody toxic masculinity. Cool job taking the one insecurity about her I shared and deciding you know who she is as a person. Also cool job with the word wants which isn't demeaning at all and implicative that she isn't actually a woman. You should maybe actually interact with trans people instead of being dismissive of them by telling actual trans people "No, this is how trans people are."
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Jan 28, 2018 06:02
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yes but you can talk about gender without being gender essentialist. Well not you, you're a complete dipshit but the general "you". Maybe you need to explain why it's wrong to make a transgender and genderqueer interpretation of a character making a physical and social transition which is explicitly more masculine then. "Masculine" and "feminine" are essentially gendered traits, and if a character completely defies the traits of what would be cissex heteronormativity why is it wrong to read that as trans?
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Jan 28, 2018 06:03
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I've been looking online for some Devilman fanart and I've found a lot of Ryo ^^     Sorry that it's all Western 
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Jan 28, 2018 06:04
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Pener I'm asking this completely earnestly, and I promise not to try and make whatever answer you give into a gotcha moment: are you trans yourself, if you don't mind saying? Looking at the fervor with which you're digging in on this reading, I'm getting a little nervous about like... drat, I might wanna go a little less hard if it means I'm casting aspersions on the validity of someone else's lived trans experience in the Devilman Crybaby thread
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Jan 28, 2018 06:08
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miko is a lesbian
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Jan 28, 2018 06:09
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you can't not post the literal statue of lucifer that got removed for being too sexy and people couldnt stop looking at in church Pener Kropoopkin posted:Your girlfriend is preoccupied with her feminity because she wants to be a woman.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:10
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yeah ngl that sentence right there has made me probably too angry to continue this argument with any decency so i should probably just go to bed before i say something i regret
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Jan 28, 2018 06:11
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Xinder posted:Have you been around since the 90s? Being trans doesn't mean you're immediately the exact opposite of all other women. You continue to accuse others of being reductive when you're the one who keeps pushing that if one acts a certain way, they must be a man. Gender is a fuckton more complicated than that and I highly suggest doing some learning, because if this is your attempt to be an ally you're doing a piss-poor job of it. You're right, gender is a very complicated subject. That's why I don't understand why it's so outrageous to have a transgender reading, because this feels like trans erasure. quote:Yeah, that's cool. Ladies can do that. Sure they can, but it's also an undeniably masculine behavior. Exhibiting masculine behaviors in one instance doesn't define a person's gender identity, but when there are so many other differences that embody masculine traits it's hard not to make that interpretation. quote:She goes from reserved to confident. She has the confidence to confront herself and understand who she is as a person. She changes because she becomes a devilman but she isn't also becoming a man. The last sentence there is pretty decent, though. That's also why I'm not definitively stating that she is a transman. She could just want to present as masculine because she's gender queer. I said as much several pages ago. There's enough room for both readings, just like there's room to interpret her as being cissexually gay - I just think there's more evidence to support a queer reading of gender than cissex. quote:Cool job taking the one insecurity about her I shared and deciding you know who she is as a person. Also cool job with the word wants which isn't demeaning at all and implicative that she isn't actually a woman. You should maybe actually interact with trans people instead of being dismissive of them by telling actual trans people "No, this is how trans people are." I interact with trans people all the time, and their preoccupation with gender expression is rooted in the insecurities from social pressures to cissexually conform. It's society that's incongruous with their identity, not themselves. It's insecurity that's informed by social repression.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're right, gender is a very complicated subject. That's why I don't understand why it's so outrageous to have a transgender reading, because this feels like trans erasure. miko is a lesbian
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Jan 28, 2018 06:12
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Expect My Mom posted:you can't not post the literal statue of lucifer that got removed for being too sexy and people couldnt stop looking at in church I don't like Le génie du mal too much because it's too Miltonian i say, in a thread about devilman
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Jan 28, 2018 06:14
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Wow, there's been a thousand posts since I last checked in, I wonder what's been goi- I'll... I'll check in later, I guess...?
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Jan 28, 2018 06:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe you need to explain why it's wrong to make a transgender and genderqueer interpretation of a character making a physical and social transition which is explicitly more masculine then. "Masculine" and "feminine" are essentially gendered traits, and if a character completely defies the traits of what would be cissex heteronormativity why is it wrong to read that as trans? You're constantly putting gender neutral traits into the "masculine" box and then declaring that any character showing any of these traits mist be a man. Plus you keep saying weird poo poo like what you said about Xinder's girlfriend that makes me think that you know nothing about trans people.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:16
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Smoking Crow posted:I don't like Le génie du mal too much because it's too Miltonian I took a class on the devil last semester, wrote my final paper on the miltonian devil and how it crosses over into the SMT series and now I'm probably gonna have to re-read Paradise Lost again this semester for another class
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Jan 28, 2018 06:18
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Improbable Lobster posted:You're constantly putting gender neutral traits into the "masculine" box and then declaring that any character showing any of these traits mist be a man. Plus you keep saying weird poo poo like what you said about Xinder's girlfriend that makes me think that you know nothing about trans people. Maybe you need to define what kind of character traits are feminine, masculine, and neutral then. If you want to argue that there is no such thing as an essentially feminine or masculine trait then I can appreciate that, but it's impossible to interpret a character as transgender by subtext without having to evaluate particular traits according to their gender associations. These are associations informed by society as-it-is not as it should be.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe you need to define what kind of character traits are feminine, masculine, and neutral then. If you want to argue that there is no such thing as an essentially feminine or masculine trait then I can appreciate that, but it's impossible to interpret a character as transgender by subtext without having to evaluate particular traits according to their gender associations. These are associations informed by society as-it-is not as it should be. miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian
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Jan 28, 2018 06:21
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Expect My Mom posted:that's fair, older depictions of the devil are buckwild. i just extremely have milton on the brain these days. that's cool, i never got to take classes on the devil at mass today we prayed the St. Michael prayer and we asked him to throw satan into hell so that has to count for something
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Jan 28, 2018 06:23
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Miko is a lesbian.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:23
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New, from the man who pretends to know what the word "gaslight" means, it's time to double down on pretending to know about trans people:Pener Kropoopkin posted:I interact with trans people all the time, and their preoccupation with gender expression is rooted in the insecurities from social pressures to cissexually conform. It's society that's incongruous with their identity, not themselves. It's insecurity that's informed by social repression. I lied about going to bed. You're a real piece of work, Pener.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:24
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're right, gender is a very complicated subject. That's why I don't understand why it's so outrageous to have a transgender reading, because this feels like trans erasure. Because your entire argument in this thread was founded in denying the read of others.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:27
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Xinder posted:New, from the man who pretends to know what the word "gaslight" means, it's time to double down on pretending to know about trans people: The need for social affirmation in woman-being and man-being is critically important, and while it's certainly possible to be confident and express a gender identity regardlesss of what society thinks, not everyone can do that. Some people do need that social affirmation, and it's perfectly understandable why your girlfriend is so insecure about being misinterpreted. It's heartbreaking how often I see my trans friends bemoaning that they'll never truly be women, because they think it's impossible for society to accept them as they are.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The need for social affirmation in woman-being and man-being is critically important, and while it's certainly possible to be confident and express a gender identity regardlesss of what society thinks, not everyone can do that. Some people do need that social affirmation, and it's perfectly understandable why your girlfriend is so insecure about being misinterpreted. It's heartbreaking how often I see my trans friends bemoaning that they'll never truly be women, because they think it's impossible for society to accept them as they are. miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian miko is a lesbian
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Jan 28, 2018 06:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The need for social affirmation in woman-being and man-being is critically important, and while it's certainly possible to be confident and express a gender identity regardlesss of what society thinks, not everyone can do that. Some people do need that social affirmation, and it's perfectly understandable why your girlfriend is so insecure about being misinterpreted. It's heartbreaking how often I see my trans friends bemoaning that they'll never truly be women, because they think it's impossible for society to accept them as they are. An excellent backpedal, but can he stick the landing?
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Jan 28, 2018 06:31
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Oh right, Pener asked earlier how you can have a character that supports a compelling trans reading without being grounded in gender essentialism, and I kinda blew past that lovely but slightly interesting question. In the interest of acting in at least a little bit of good faith, here is one such character: Neo, from The Matrix
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Jan 28, 2018 06:37
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Look, man. I'll level with you. I brought up my gf because I thought that by understanding why this was sensitive to me you might be able to understand what you're doing wrong. I was wrong to do so, because I was treating you like a decent human being at the time. Your words since then have proven to me that you are anything but. The way I see it, we have one of two options here: 1. You're lying about knowing trans people to win internet points in an internet argument 2. You're a horrible hateful manipulative person who can actually interact with trans people and call them friends, but will still say poo poo like "she wants to be a woman" as if that's okay. I really hope it's 1.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:38
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Motto posted:Because your entire argument in this thread was founded in denying the read of others. Nope. I disagreed with strictly defined interpretations in a story that is intentionally open-ended. The only thing I denied is that it's impossible to make alternative interpretations.
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Jan 28, 2018 06:39
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