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Xarbala posted:Yeah, that was pretty hosed up and you can tell that the person who said it had never experienced casual racism in their life. Don't forget the people who couldn't understand why the Capital Tower soldiers who had zero concept of actual heavy combat were all excited to go to war.
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Jan 30, 2018 04:03
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NikkolasKing posted:I also maintain that Relena is the real main protagonist of the series so having a main heroine who never even pilots a robot is also unique. It's only really a unique point if it's supported. And I don't think it is. Putting aside that all the official material treats Heero as the protagonist, a large chunk of the story in Wing is about the place of soldiers in society and the need for humanity within war. The reason Treize glorifies the Gundam pilots (and why the manga is called the "Glory of the Losers") is because they continue to fight even after the people they want to fight for have abandoned them, and they've become "losers". Heero supports at least some of the themes of the story far better than Relena, as well as large chunks of the story being told from his perspective and him having more screen time in much of the show. Plus, you know, pilots the suit the show is named for. I mean, I like to think Dianna and Kihel are in some ways the protagonists of Turn-A and go through the lion's share of characterization as well as just being more interesting than Loran but I would never try to seriously argue that the show is unique for having female main protagonists. Much of the same points as above apply as well, with much of the story being told from Loran's point of view and not theirs as well as him having more screen time and suiting some of the show's themes better. In the case of Turn-A, one of the main themes is about how carelessly people jump in to conflict and just go along with it because they're told it's good and Loran (or Sochie) fits that far better than Dianna or Kihel because the sparse character progress he makes is about learning to be more cautious about who he trusts and helps. It's also not that unique anymore since not only could you make the same argument for Turn-A, but you could do the same for Iron Blood Orphans now too. Or at least, IBO's first season. Wing came first, but it wasn't alone for long even if you want to take that view. tsob fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jan 30, 2018 |
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Jan 30, 2018 11:19
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I feel like gundam wing's name is a joke because the wing gundam is the single most inconsequential robot in that show and heero stops piloting it like a fourth of the way in I appreciate that it is a plot point that zechs had wing rebuilt specifically to give back to heero for their duel, but heero ends up using heavy arms instead
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Jan 30, 2018 21:18
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ninjewtsu posted:I feel like gundam wing's name is a joke because the wing gundam is the single most inconsequential robot in that show and heero stops piloting it like a fourth of the way in The name is a joke, but the joke is that a 'wing' is a military organizational unit. So the title references a team of Gundams working together, but they all refuse to actually do so until the final few episodes (and even then Heero still goes solo in the Wing Zero at every opportunity.)
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Jan 30, 2018 21:33
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Paper Kaiju posted:The name is a joke, but the joke is that a 'wing' is a military organizational unit. So the title references a team of Gundams working together, but they all refuse to actually do so until the final few episodes (and even then Heero still goes solo in the Wing Zero at every opportunity.) Twenty loving years and I never realized this.
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Jan 30, 2018 21:51
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Paper Kaiju posted:The name is a joke, but the joke is that a 'wing' is a military organizational unit. So the title references a team of Gundams working together, but they all refuse to actually do so until the final few episodes (and even then Heero still goes solo in the Wing Zero at every opportunity.) Okay that's good insight right there. Wing Gundam is actually the red headed step child of the Gundams since no one seems to want to keep it. Not Heero, not Zechs, not the Sanc Kingdom, not anyone. Just sort of summarily is tossed aside around episode 12 and just is a floating piece that gets stolen over and over again by different factions. Honestly it's impressive it never gets a fresh paint job throughout the series as it's used by different pilots. A more modern Gundam absolutely would have done this with it to sell more models. Perhaps it was astounding restraint instead. I will never understand how so many pilots hide their Gundams in lakes/oceans and expect to be able to get back to them. Or how they sunk them and then got out of them either. I don't see any of these guys with scuba gear.
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Jan 30, 2018 22:15
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I will never understand how so many pilots hide their Gundams in lakes/oceans and expect to be able to get back to them. Or how they sunk them and then got out of them either. I don't see any of these guys with scuba gear. Domon hid his inside the Statue of Liberty. ManSedan fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 30, 2018 |
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Jan 30, 2018 22:42
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Domon hiding his gundam in absurd locations was one of my favorite parts of g gundam
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Jan 31, 2018 00:30
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I will never understand how so many pilots hide their Gundams in lakes/oceans and expect to be able to get back to them. Or how they sunk them and then got out of them either. I don't see any of these guys with scuba gear. Operation Meteor Basic Training I suppose.
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Jan 31, 2018 02:22
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AtheistMantis posted:Operation Meteor Basic Training I suppose. Last second training since these kids weren't supposed to be the original pilots too. Hey DUDES UHH IF YOU GET IN TROUBLE JUST THROW IT IN A BIG BODY OF WATER THEY'LL NEVER FIGURE IT OUT. GL
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Jan 31, 2018 02:31
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Imagine if they dumped them in the ocean and then pressure crushed them like in thunderbolt.
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Jan 31, 2018 04:10
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Only Wufei and Trowa aren't originals - Wufei replaced his dead wife and Trowa took over for the real Trowa who got whacked when the plan changed to targeted terrorism instead of colony drops. Heero, Duo, and Quatre were all recruited.
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Jan 31, 2018 04:14
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tsob posted:It's only really a unique point if it's supported. And I don't think it is. Putting aside that all the official material treats Heero as the protagonist, a large chunk of the story in Wing is about the place of soldiers in society and the need for humanity within war. The reason Treize glorifies the Gundam pilots (and why the manga is called the "Glory of the Losers") is because they continue to fight even after the people they want to fight for have abandoned them, and they've become "losers". Heero supports at least some of the themes of the story far better than Relena, as well as large chunks of the story being told from his perspective and him having more screen time in much of the show. Plus, you know, pilots the suit the show is named for. I mean, even if Turn-A or IBO did it, it doesn't make Wing that much less special. That's still a measly 3 series out of how many? My case for Relena being the protagonist is that she ultimately accomplishes more and Heero is largely just the muscle to her ideals. She's the one seriously opposing Romefeller while Heero is in an existential crisis. He finds his purpose again in being her bodyguard. Even though he saves the world, she's he one tasked with actually leading the world. When you get right down to it, the Wing Boys accomplished almost nothing al series. Which, as you said, was a big point of the story. Perhaps I phrased it badly in which case I'm sorry. I shouldn't have tried to make it sound like she's the real main character, but more like she's the main heroine because she does more heroism than anyone else. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 04:16
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i think there's a difference between "the character that accomplishes the most" and "the main viewpoint character" and generally protagonist refers to the second one of these
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Jan 31, 2018 04:39
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NikkolasKing posted:I mean, even if Turn-A or IBO did it, it doesn't make Wing that much less special. That's still a measly 3 series out of how many? 14, by my count. 0079, Zeta, ZZ, Victory, G, Wing, X, Turn-A, SEED, Destiny, 00, AGE, G-Reco and Iron Blood Orphans. At least for TV shows, discounting Build Fighters and Try for not even trying to be war stories in the same vein as those and Re:0096 for just being a chop job of a recent popular OVA made to fill space when another show was cancelled. Which is just under 1/4 of TV animations, and which isn't that low a fraction. You used the word unique, which means "singular", not rare. NikkolasKing posted:My case for Relena being the protagonist is that she ultimately accomplishes more and Heero is largely just the muscle to her ideals. She's the one seriously opposing Romefeller while Heero is in an existential crisis. He finds his purpose again in being her bodyguard. Even though he saves the world, she's he one tasked with actually leading the world. Without Heero she wouldn't have acted in the first place, nor would she have had the power to act in many instances since his actions were what lined up events to allow her to take charge. Saying he's simply her muscle is massively undercutting the importance he plays in the show's events. That she's more idealistic means nothing, and one of Wing (and especially Endless Waltz's) main points is that ideals on their own are meaningless; with Relena deciding that total pacifism means nothing and that the people have to be willing to stand up and enforce it while Heero is imploring Wufei to not fight and instead to realize that ideals are important and fighting has no purpose without them. NikkolasKing posted:When you get right down to it, the Wing Boys accomplished almost nothing al series. Which, as you said, was a big point of the story. Perhaps I phrased it badly in which case I'm sorry. I shouldn't have tried to make it sound like she's the real main character, but more like she's the main heroine because she does more heroism than anyone else. Does this mean Chris is the main character of 0080 given that she fought off people attacking a colony twice, including walking in to what she knows is a trap on one occasion since it might help lower civilian casualties at the cost of her own safety? Is Lacus the main heroine of SEED Destiny because her ideals are the basis of Kiras and she eventually leads the world? I could totally see the argument that she's the most important character, from a given perspective but I would argue that (a) it's only from a particular perspective and other views exist, that (b) that doesn't make her the main character or protagonist and (c) that it's not an official stance and isn't something to argue for Wing's uniqueness on given that it's only a personal perspective.
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Jan 31, 2018 15:56
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tsob posted:Is Lacus the main heroine of SEED Destiny because her ideals are the basis of Kiras and she eventually leads the world? Oh, of course not. She's the main villain.
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Jan 31, 2018 16:24
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NikkolasKing posted:My case for Relena being the protagonist is that she ultimately accomplishes more and Heero is largely just the muscle to her ideals. She's the one seriously opposing Romefeller while Heero is in an existential crisis. He finds his purpose again in being her bodyguard. Even though he saves the world, she's he one tasked with actually leading the world. Heero's whole deal with Relena has to do with the theme of the show: "Might makes Right" is false. When men who fight don't believe in their cause, they subconsciously choose to lose, and every single one of the Gundam pilots demonstrates this throughout the show. Pacifism only works when your enemies choose not to fight you, and Heero chooses not to fight Relena. His constant 'I will kill you' is just a reminder that the moment she strays from true pacifism, he will wreck her poo poo. Heero is not the muscle behind her ideals, he is the proof to her that her ideals can work at all. Then the mobile dolls show up...
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Jan 31, 2018 19:54
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Ranzear posted:Heero's whole deal with Relena has to do with the theme of the show: "Might makes Right" is false. When men who fight don't believe in their cause, they subconsciously choose to lose, and every single one of the Gundam pilots demonstrates this throughout the show. Pacifism only works when your enemies choose not to fight you, and Heero chooses not to fight Relena. His constant 'I will kill you' is just a reminder that the moment she strays from true pacifism, he will wreck her poo poo. Heero and Mikazuki are kind of an interesting contrast there. They're both child soldiers whose worldviews get shaken when confronted with an alternative, but while Heero loses the ability to be the soldier, Mika loses his humanity instead. He'd be as much a problem for Relena's ideals as an opponent as the mobile dolls (or even Mobile Armors) are, because violence isn't a task he takes up for a specific desperate need, but his default mode of operation. I mean, in the finale, he even says "Cause? What's that?" (Well, in part of a larger speech where he considers his whole purpose for existence coming from his family, but he still says it.) It's easy to just think of Heero as not being as... committed as Mikazuki, but that's a function of their narrative roles. Heero is meant to be the soldier who is brought around to a pacifist's prospective, while Mika is meant to be someone who, ultimately, couldn't break away. They serve different needs in different stories.
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Feb 1, 2018 02:44
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tsob posted:Without Heero she wouldn't have acted in the first place, nor would she have had the power to act in many instances since his actions were what lined up events to allow her to take charge. Saying he's simply her muscle is massively undercutting the importance he plays in the show's events. That she's more idealistic means nothing, and one of Wing (and especially Endless Waltz's) main points is that ideals on their own are meaningless; with Relena deciding that total pacifism means nothing and that the people have to be willing to stand up and enforce it while Heero is imploring Wufei to not fight and instead to realize that ideals are important and fighting has no purpose without them. It's not about idealism, it's about the fact she's doing something constructive. War can only be destructive and all of Operation Meteor demonstrates this. The Wing Boys accomplish nothing because all they bring is destruction, while Relena, through re-establishing the San kingdom, actually poses a real threat to Romefeller. Now, in the end she had to admit she needed the Gundams to defend her kingdom but that's still better than anything the mad doctors planned or the White Fang. When Heero confronts Treize and gets the Epyon, I always remember Treize himself talks about how Relena is a much stronger person than Heero. quote:Does this mean Chris is the main character of 0080 given that she fought off people attacking a colony twice, including walking in to what she knows is a trap on one occasion since it might help lower civilian casualties at the cost of her own safety? Is Lacus the main heroine of SEED Destiny because her ideals are the basis of Kiras and she eventually leads the world? I could totally see the argument that she's the most important character, from a given perspective but I would argue that (a) it's only from a particular perspective and other views exist, that (b) that doesn't make her the main character or protagonist and (c) that it's not an official stance and isn't something to argue for Wing's uniqueness on given that it's only a personal perspective. Lacus is obviously following in Relena's footsteps. Hell, there are a few different Relena Clones while I recall no Heero Clones in other series. But anyway, I alreay admitted I probably misspoke earlier on. I was merely trying to extol Wing's giving a woman a leading, independent role. From start to finish Relena grows a lot, is a key figure in directing the storyline and is more admirable than any of the pilots. Wing has a lot of pretty cool female characters in fact. I don't think you can take this away from the show.
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Feb 1, 2018 03:54
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NikkolasKing posted:Hell, there are a few different Relena Clones while I recall no Heero Clones in other series. Heero led to Sosuke (Full Metal Panic) who was then brought back to Gundam as Setsuna (00) and then the child soldier archetype was taken to a much greater extreme with Mikazuki (IBO).
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Feb 1, 2018 04:00
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NikkolasKing posted:It's not about idealism, it's about the fact she's doing something constructive. Destruction is a necessary step towards change and construction is impossible without destruction to clear the way and/or create the materials necessary to build in the first place. NikkolasKing posted:Lacus is obviously following in Relena's footsteps. Hell, there are a few different Relena Clones while I recall no Heero Clones in other series. Depends on how you want to define Heero I guess, but most people would probably view Setsuna and Mikazaku as Heero clones given that they're all fairly stoic characters with child soldier pasts defined by trauma from that past. NikkolasKing posted:Wing has a lot of pretty cool female characters in fact. I don't think you can take this away from the show. I think lot is overstating it, because it's mostly just Relena, Noin and Sally Po. There are a couple of others like Hilde and Dorothy but they barely do enough to register and I think even Noin is kind of pushing it considering she's introduced by literally recounting the days since she was last with Zechs in a manner that makes her come off as a complete doormat and seems to subsume herself to other characters a lot during the show. Even Relena I think is mostly kind of cool in concept more than execution and defined more by a couple of cool moments than by an appreciation of the slow change. Then again, that may just be a distaste for much of (what I remember of) Wing, given that I haven't seen most of it in 15 or 20 years. tsob fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 04:09
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dorothy was loving rad as hell
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Feb 1, 2018 06:20
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ninjewtsu posted:dorothy was loving rad as hell  Her and Treize's eyebrows should have dueled.
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Feb 1, 2018 06:22
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Dorothy is probably my favorite character in Wing. I have a sort of Top 5 that I like a lot (Dorothy, Relena, Heero, Treize and Zechs) and it be hard to really put them in a hierarchy but it's still probably her. Her interactions with Relena are so good, and my first time through I was very curious where her weird stalker character was going and what her agenda was. (I wish I had that screenshot of her saying Relena and her ideas are beautiful) She was just so weirdly polite while at the same time being as impolite as possible, it was really neat.
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Feb 1, 2018 14:23
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maybe the moral of gundam wing is that the next gundam series shouldnt have any gundams in it
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Feb 1, 2018 14:35
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Endorph posted:maybe the moral of gundam wing is that the next gundam series shouldnt have any gundams in it They tried that with MS Igloo. It wasn't great.
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Feb 1, 2018 14:38
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the next gundam series should have young noble ladies drinking tea and being weird to each other instead of gundams, as opposed to having an episode about a ball instead of gundams
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Feb 1, 2018 14:42
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Endorph posted:the next gundam series should have young noble ladies drinking tea and being weird to each other instead of gundams, as opposed to having an episode about a ball instead of gundams This is the point where I would say 'this but unironically,' but literally my only concern is that lack of gunpla that such a series would produce. Really, we just need a Gundam series where the protagonists are someone besides the pilots.
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Feb 1, 2018 15:38
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Paper Kaiju posted:This is the point where I would say 'this but unironically,' but literally my only concern is that lack of gunpla that such a series would produce. GBF was kind of that for most of its run.
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Feb 1, 2018 15:49
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Darth Walrus posted:GBF was kind of that for most of its run. That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that nearly every character was a pilot.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:42
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Endorph posted:maybe the moral of gundam wing is that the next gundam series shouldnt have any gundams in it This describes Origin and it is good.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:15
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Endorph posted:the next gundam series should have young noble ladies drinking tea and being weird to each other instead of gundams, as opposed to having an episode about a ball instead of gundams I would be so down for a non-giant robot war story in an established UC setting. A SoL show about some civvies in the mid UC0090s and how living a colony works for them with a short mention of how Char's Counterattack or Unicorn affects their lives, a spy show set in AD, a show about engineers in CC; whatever. Just exploring some established settings further through non-mobile suits hows. Paper Kaiju posted:That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that nearly every character was a pilot. Another way to look at is is that the show had deuteragonists, and one of them was a pilot from the get go while the other's major arc was learning to be a pilot.
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Feb 1, 2018 19:02
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One day we'll get the Anaheim Electronics R&D series we deserve
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Feb 1, 2018 19:26
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I want the repair crew series where they constantly complain about how reckless the rookie hotshot is being with his machine. And grumbling about how hard it is to do maintenance on the psychic-powered black box stuffed into the back
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Feb 1, 2018 19:29
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Endorph posted:the next gundam series should have young noble ladies drinking tea and being weird to each other instead of gundams, as opposed to having an episode about a ball instead of gundams I would watch a series about Ball crews loving around in shoal zones and whacking each other with their little pincer hands.
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Feb 1, 2018 19:39
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tsob posted:I would be so down for a non-giant robot war story in an established UC setting. A SoL show about some civvies in the mid UC0090s and how living a colony works for them with a short mention of how Char's Counterattack or Unicorn affects their lives, a spy show set in AD, a show about engineers in CC; whatever. Just exploring some established settings further through non-mobile suits hows. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Developers:_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_Before_One_Year_War
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Feb 1, 2018 20:00
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tsob posted:I would be so down for a non-giant robot war story in an established UC setting. A SoL show about some civvies in the mid UC0090s and how living a colony works for them with a short mention of how Char's Counterattack or Unicorn affects their lives, a spy show set in AD, a show about engineers in CC; whatever. Just exploring some established settings further through non-mobile suits hows. isn't this most of war in the pocket
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Feb 1, 2018 20:32
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Al was the only civilian of note in 0080, and even then his story mostly revolved around helping a covert military unit. So no, not really.
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Feb 1, 2018 20:58
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i mean, it's primarily a story about covert military operations in a civilian populace, and the gundam only really makes an appearance at the end, right? seems about as far removed from the robots as gundam is ever going to get.
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Feb 2, 2018 00:01
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ninjewtsu posted:i mean, it's primarily a story about covert military operations in a civilian populace, and the gundam only really makes an appearance at the end, right? seems about as far removed from the robots as gundam is ever going to get. It probably is, but I don't think that makes it particularly close since a lot of the named protagonists and antagonists were pilots, the plot of the show was about pilots trying to destroy a mobile suit and there's a mobile suit battle in at least half the episodes if I recall, with two of those being the climax of the episode and one being the emotional climax of the entire story.
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Feb 2, 2018 00:42
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