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The Phlegmatist
Nov 24, 2003

Ytlaya posted:

Yeah, it basically requires people to somehow diagnose the severity of their own conditions before calling an ambulance.

Which is a really bad idea! Especially because bacterial meningitis and appendicitis aren't that rare, present with mild symptoms at first and then can progress rapidly (and become fatal.) And also some patients already won't even go to the ER if they're having a mild heart attack.

Although I do understand the impetus behind this, because using the ER as your PCP is pretty lovely and so is the drug-seeking behavior from people who have had their mysterious back pain treated at every ER in the county.

The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jan 29, 2018

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hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Stickman posted:

This is despicable. Wouldn't it make more sense to work with hospitals so that ERs could invest more resources in screening patients and send non-emergencies to an adjacent urgent care? The cost discrepancy between ERs and urgent care is horrifying.

They do this when able but the urgent care isn’t open 24/7 which can complicate things.

There’s also perverse incentives for hospitals in that they get to charge your insurance a ton for the ER visit. Hence the standalone ERs popping up everywhere.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo

Stickman posted:

This is despicable. Wouldn't it make more sense to work with hospitals so that ERs could invest more resources in screening patients and send non-emergencies to an adjacent urgent care? The cost discrepancy between ERs and urgent care is horrifying.


The Phlegmatist posted:

And also some patients already won't even go to the ER if they're having a mild heart attack.

My insurance has been more or less like this for two years already. ER visits are covered by the general deductable and co-pays. I went into the ER for what ended up just being severe heartburn and the bill was like $3k because the insurance covered basically nothing.

I could get shot and I'd wait for the urgent care to be open at this point.

CAPS LOCK BROKEN
Feb 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
This is why the comparison shopping market euphoriacs are shitheads - sometimes an aching neck is computer use strain and sometimes it’s meningitis

LeeMajors
Jan 20, 2005

I've gotta stop fantasizing about Lee Majors...
Ah, one more!


It’s going to kill a lot of boomers whose nonspecific symptoms are life threatening.

For-profit Healthcare is an abomination and literally benefits no one but shareholders.

Defense of the system is a good litmus test for shitheads too, since they invariably think the only legitimate motivation for healthcare innovation is money.

Reik
Mar 8, 2004
PPACA actually includes a provision to prevent this bullshit Anthem is trying to push:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/2590.715-2719A

Essentially it says that if a "prudent layperson" would be within reason to think that the symptoms would lead to an emergency condition, it is considered an emergency medical condition. If she says "I looked up the symptoms and they were in line with appendicitis which could kill me" the law is in her favor and she should sue Anthem.

I assume Anthem is betting on the Trump administration not enforcing this part of ACA.

Reik
Mar 8, 2004

Stickman posted:

This is despicable. Wouldn't it make more sense to work with hospitals so that ERs could invest more resources in screening patients and send non-emergencies to an adjacent urgent care? The cost discrepancy between ERs and urgent care is horrifying.

Why would the hospital do that when they make a boat ton of money off ER patients?

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

LeeMajors posted:

It’s going to kill a lot of boomers

Well now I'm torn

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

^^^ I'm one of the boomers who has deferred care bc I can't afford the stratospheric deductibles for the only insurance I can afford, given the 3x multiplier allowed under the ACA. Two more years till Medicare. Three of my boomer friends have died in the last 16 months due to cancer that was diagnosed while they were uninsured, and in all three cases my friends put off seeking medical care. All three friends were ultra-lefties, too, contrary to boomer-hatred mythology.


With the consolidation of corporate hospitals and their buying up doctors groups even urgent-care facilities have jacked their prices, especially by tacking on "facility fees":

quote:

After her 8-year-old daughter was nipped by a dog, she took her to a local urgent care center and left with a bill for more than $500. The child was treated with antibiotic gel and a simple bandage during her 15-minute visit, according to the South Florida Sun Sentinel, which reported on the incident last year.

Because the center was owned by Baptist Health South Florida, the hospital-based system slapped a $275 facility fee on top of the $233 doctor’s bill. The woman’s insurance refused to pay half the fee and Romaniello argued she would have gone elsewhere had she known about the extra fees beforehand.

***

Connie Peterson, 67, a retired graphics designer who lives in Iowa City, Iowa, also experienced the sting of facility fees. She was aghast after receiving a bill for nearly $26,000 in facility fees from an outpatient surgery center where she spent less than an hour.

“I was livid when I received the bill,” said Peterson. She spent months trying to get an explanation that made sense to her. “All I wanted was an itemized bill to let me know exactly what I’m paying for. I never got that,” she said.

Peterson had three procedures to remove nasal polyps during her 45-minute stay at the Iowa City Ambulatory Surgical Center in April. The center billed more than $8,000 in facility fees for each one, bringing the total to $25,872. She had to pay $1,086 of that.

https://www.publicintegrity.org/2012/12/20/11978/hospital-facility-fees-boosting-medical-bills-and-not-just-hospital-care

And "balance billing," in which patients are responsible for out-of-network costs beyond their control for in-network facilities, remains a problem in all but a handful of states:

quote:

Surprise bills, also known as “balance bills,” are part of the complex way that health care is paid for in the U.S. Insurers form networks as one way to slow rising health care costs, in part by getting doctors and hospitals who join to agree to negotiated rates, which are generally lower than their usual fees. Out-of-network hospitals and doctors can set their own fees and "balance bill" patients for the portion insurers don't cover.

Some patients choose to go out of network because they want a specific doctor or hospital. But, as insurers shrink networks, some patients may be unable to find an in-network provider. And others may get a balance bill after choosing an in-network hospital, only to learn later that the anesthesiologist or the lab were not included in their insurer’s network. Balance bills can run into thousands of dollars.

While the problem predates the Affordable Care Act, the president’s signature health care law largely sidesteps the issue. It says only that insurers must not charge policyholders higher copayments for emergency department services at non-network hospitals because patients often can’t choose where they go. Medicare, however, strictly limits how much patients can be balance billed by doctors who don't participate in the program.

***

Even then, as Johnson in Milwaukee learned, you might still get billed. In her case, the urgent care center was in network. But the doctor group overseeing the care was not. Hence the $356 bill, which Johnson paid. Even her insurer was surprised, she said.

axeil
Feb 14, 2006
This "correctly diagnose your own appendicitis or face $20k in medical bills" bullshit is loving disgusting.

There's really no other word for it. Ban private insurance and give everyone Medicare.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Willa Rogers posted:

^^^ I'm one of the boomers who has deferred care bc I can't afford the stratospheric deductibles for the only insurance I can afford, given the 3x multiplier allowed under the ACA. Two more years till Medicare. Three of my boomer friends have died in the last 16 months due to cancer that was diagnosed while they were uninsured, and in all three cases my friends put off seeking medical care. All three friends were ultra-lefties, too, contrary to boomer-hatred mythology.

Sorry, bad joke. I obviously don't want anyone to die without medical care, not even the people who keep voting to make sure we can't have it.

zonohedron
Aug 14, 2006


axeil posted:

This "correctly diagnose your own appendicitis or face $20k in medical bills" bullshit is loving disgusting.

There's really no other word for it. Ban private insurance and give everyone Medicare.

And then at the end, the lady says that she'd go to an urgent care place for everything, and they'd have to "force her" into an ambulance... which, naturally, she'd pay through the nose for, especially if her eventual diagnosis was not something that might have killed her.

Not to mention Anthem says "call our nurse line", but a lot of the time nurse lines will tell you to go to the ER because they can't take the risk of saying "take a Tylenol and go to bed" and then have the person die in their sleep! (I got told to go to the ER with my two-year-old because he was complaining of abdominal pain and refusing to urinate. This is because a kid that little complaining of abdominal pain might need to fart or might be about to keel over dead.)

CAPS LOCK BROKEN
Feb 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
When I went to the ER last year for a head injury they told me not to worry about the insurer's ER policy denying non-emergent claims because their "business department" knows the correct codes that grant magic access to sweet claim money. What this will result in is an escalating war of the billing codes where insurers will change which codes are ER-claim eligible and hospitals will try and keep up with them.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




The whole system is going to implode soon.

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

zonohedron posted:

And then at the end, the lady says that she'd go to an urgent care place for everything, and they'd have to "force her" into an ambulance... which, naturally, she'd pay through the nose for, especially if her eventual diagnosis was not something that might have killed her.

Not to mention Anthem says "call our nurse line", but a lot of the time nurse lines will tell you to go to the ER because they can't take the risk of saying "take a Tylenol and go to bed" and then have the person die in their sleep! (I got told to go to the ER with my two-year-old because he was complaining of abdominal pain and refusing to urinate. This is because a kid that little complaining of abdominal pain might need to fart or might be about to keel over dead.)

Had a friend that went through this. They tell the story often so it's easy for me to recall most of it.

They had just had a late night meal and one of them suddenly had strong abdominal guarding. So they decide to call the BCBS nurse line who walks through diagnosing it and tells them to take some antacids, but to seek medical attention in the morning. An hour later and the pain is even sharper so they call the nurse line back, and they actually recorded the speakerphone call just in case because Millenials are used to being constantly hosed and needing unequivocal proof to become unfucked, wherein the BCBS nurse line said to either call 911 or have someone drive them to the hospital.

"Which hospitals are in network?"
"I...I don't know. You will have to call member services for that."
"They're closed."
"Well...I don't know how to help. You can try calling the hospital first. Thanks for calling!" *click*

So while one of them is rolling back and forth on the couch in occasional swells of pain the other is on the computer trying to find out which hospitals carry the insurance. The local hospitals don't have clear information on this since the hospitals have separate departments, and not every department is under the same billing contract. So for example the doctors offices side might take your insurance network, but the ER won't. Tried using the BCBS website as well, but that just made it even more confusing.

So they did what every doctor in America wishes they hadn't done. They just went to the Level 1 Trauma center because they figured that was the best bet for being in-network, and heck if it turned out to be bad then they wouldn't have to deal with being stabilized and shipped off.

Turned out to be a really really bad case of acute gastritis - nothing some dicylomine, ondansetron, and magnesium hydroxide can't knock out and those are ALL cheap cheap cheap drugs - but what if it had been something worse?

The ER did what they were supposed to do, and it was billed at over $3500 - which BCBS had to eat in full because they were maxed out for the year already - but they spent the next 3 months constantly worried that BCBS was going to come after them until they get their Explanation of Benefits showing it covered. They'd documented pretty much *everything* that happened that night with video and audio recordings just to make sure it made clear that they perceived it as an emergency. But there was no way they would have been able to handle a sudden $3500+ medical bill - they were barely making ends meet as, like I said, they'd already hit their out of pocket max for the year.

That was years ago and they still have all of the records because they swear BCBS will find a way to sue them for it.

So now they see a therapist for anxiety management because of one year's medical visits and the constant terror of being bankrupted.

Crashrat fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Jan 30, 2018

Reik
Mar 8, 2004

Crashrat posted:

So now they see a therapist for anxiety management because of one year's medical visits and the constant terror of being bankrupted.

Which BCBS? I don't know if random internet stranger words will help them but depending on the plan I may be able to assure you they won't sue.

The Phlegmatist
Nov 24, 2003

Invalid Validation posted:

The whole system is going to implode soon.

When aging boomers start requiring long-term care en masse we're either gonna get UHC or we're gonna crash the entire world's economy as they blow through all of their assets, so strap in.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

by vyelkin
I had a few voicemails from healthcare.gov I realized, and called back. For their proof of income for 2018, they're asking for a tax return from 2017. The system works! :suicide:

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

Reik posted:

Which BCBS? I don't know if random internet stranger words will help them but depending on the plan I may be able to assure you they won't sue.

I think at this point they've started accepting it's not going to happen. In reality their BCBS coverage has worked out pretty well because they've had so many medical problems that they've learned how to navigate the BCBS system pretty well. They're one of the handful of people that keeps the prescription drug list on them when they go to a doctor so if the doctor prescribes something then they have the list with them to make sure it's covered and whether or not a PA will be needed.

Honestly if you picked them up and dropped them off in a UHC country like Canada - or especially the NHS - they'd think they'd stumbled into El Dorado.


mastershakeman posted:

I had a few voicemails from healthcare.gov I realized, and called back. For their proof of income for 2018, they're asking for a tax return from 2017. The system works! :suicide:

That seems to be the case with everyone having to prove their 2018 income. I don't understand it at all.

The conspiracy theorist in me imagines that the Trump Administration is wanting to cross-check historical tax records moving forward, but they can't actually force you to hand over your tax information to get healthcare...so they just require it to get the tax credit.

So maybe they're planning to come down harder on people trying to get the CSR-level plans that have the lower deductible and OOP max in future years if their income isn't really close to what they predicted.

From what I've seen I don't know why anyone would bother reporting a change in income to Healthcare.gov, though - ESPECIALLY if you're low income. Suddenly reporting as little as $1 more income could knock you out of your CSR plan, cause your deductible and OOP max to quadruple, and you've lost some of your tax credits.

If I suddenly became awash in an extra $10,000 income, and I was a CSR-level person, I would just start setting aside a 1/3rd or so of my premium credit's value every month to prepare for reconciling it the next year.

I know you're *supposed* to report it to Healthcare.gov - but right now they pretty much have that setup as a fool's errand that does nothing but gently caress you over for being honest.


The Phlegmatist posted:

When aging boomers start requiring long-term care en masse we're either gonna get UHC or we're gonna crash the entire world's economy as they blow through all of their assets, so strap in.

Without a loving doubt.

This is especially true after CMS came down hard in 2016 for every damned long-term care facility throwing antipsychotics down patient's throats as a means of more-or-less chemical restraints to make the job of working at a nursing home easier. It's absolutely ludicrous to me how poorly paid a lot of those workers are - especially relative to the cost of the facilities - and their answer is just to sedate everyone there.

With that no longer being an option - and the high probability that more and more people moving into nursing homes are going to demand higher levels of service...the costs are just going to go up, the complaints are going to go up, and it's frankly just a mater of time till there's cell phone videos recorded by patients of horrible things happening at nursing homes popping up regularly.

Nursing homes aren't pleasant places. They're seriously not a place I hope I ever end up in. Of course I imagine that we all hope with advances in treatment of dementia, and the probable coming of robotic assistance to make "aging in place" more common, that none of us end up in one of those places.

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.
Yam Slacker

The Phlegmatist posted:

When aging boomers start requiring long-term care en masse we're either gonna get UHC or we're gonna crash the entire world's economy as they blow through all of their assets and their kids assets and their grandkids assets, so strap in.
Fixed for what will really happen.

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

Cheesus posted:

Fixed for what will really happen.

Jokes on the Boomer generation then because Gen X is hanging on to what capital they've accumulated with bailing wire and prayers - and Millennials are just hoping to make ends meet and not have everything blow up in their face because one thing goes wrong since they don't have the bailing wire (read: decades of experience and networking) that Gen X has.

There's not much milk to be had from those cows.

But seriously I have no idea where the money for long term care is going to come from.

That's before we even touch on the fact that there's medical advances in the pipeline that are going to drastically increase lifespans. UCSF has a very promising artificial kidney that I think is finishing up preclinical right now and almost through raising funds for their clinical trials. There's also been some massive advancements in artificial livers. We're getting a better and better understanding of dementia - especially the physiological aspects of it - that would have blown the minds of gerontology a decade ago.

So just postulate where we'll be a decade from now...and then put yourself in the shoes of a private long term care insurer. Even late Boomers and early Gen X with established careers that have spent a very long time paying into their long term care insurance have seen their policies cut back and minimized despite those decades of payments. There's no way I could look at how long term care insurers are acting - namely the cutting back of benefits despite years of paying in - and think "oh boy I should sign up for this!" Those insurers see all of those medical advancements and their underwriting actuaries are making clear to them that they won't have enough money flowing in to support the long term care of people that are suddenly living a decade or more longer than they were when signed up.

This gets into the paradoxical nature of wealth accumulation causing inequality, which causes slackening demand from decreased spending power, which makes capitalism run like it has encephalitis - that's verging off topic, though.

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




They won’t afford it so UHC happens or insurance cuts everything and people just file bankruptcy to the point it crashes the economy. The way people are pushing UHC now though I could totally see it happen within my lifetime.

BarbarianElephant
Feb 12, 2015
The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Invalid Validation posted:

They won’t afford it so UHC happens or insurance cuts everything and people just file bankruptcy to the point it crashes the economy. The way people are pushing UHC now though I could totally see it happen within my lifetime.

I can fully see UHC happening when Democrats get power again...and then getting rolled back 8 years later when Republicans have power. Repeat ad infinitum.

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

BarbarianElephant posted:

I can fully see UHC happening when Democrats get power again...and then getting rolled back 8 years later when Republicans have power. Repeat ad infinitum.

It's a lot harder to take something away once people have it and are used to it.

Republicans only managed to get rid of the unpopular bits of the PP-ACA, and in turn the insurance prices have kept going up.

If UHC is actually rolled out, and functioning with a normal co-pay system and wide use, it's going to be damned hard for Republicans to sell people on "we'll save you $500 a year in taxes in exchange for you paying $1000 more per month in premiums...and also your copays are going up...and also you get to have a deductible again...and coinsurance again...and uh...honestly I'll say whatever these lobbyists tell me to be honest."

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

by vyelkin

Crashrat posted:


That seems to be the case with everyone having to prove their 2018 income. I don't understand it at all.

The conspiracy theorist in me imagines that the Trump Administration is wanting to cross-check historical tax records moving forward, but they can't actually force you to hand over your tax information to get healthcare...so they just require it to get the tax credit.

So maybe they're planning to come down harder on people trying to get the CSR-level plans that have the lower deductible and OOP max in future years if their income isn't really close to what they predicted.

From what I've seen I don't know why anyone would bother reporting a change in income to Healthcare.gov, though - ESPECIALLY if you're low income. Suddenly reporting as little as $1 more income could knock you out of your CSR plan, cause your deductible and OOP max to quadruple, and you've lost some of your tax credits.

If I suddenly became awash in an extra $10,000 income, and I was a CSR-level person, I would just start setting aside a 1/3rd or so of my premium credit's value every month to prepare for reconciling it the next year.

I know you're *supposed* to report it to Healthcare.gov - but right now they pretty much have that setup as a fool's errand that does nothing but gently caress you over for being honest.

Great advice, thanks. I guess I need to sit down and reread the regulations and figure out what happens with CSRs and whatnot. The last thing I want is for the subsidized premium to go to unsubsidized because of a bureaucratic decision - if they demand tax forms from last year and that I submit my expected income to match exactly what those tax forms say, I don't have any choice but to comply.

FWIW the plan I'm on without factoring in cost sharing and subsidies is $1300/mo premium, $14k deductible for a family of 3 in IL.

Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.
Yam Slacker

Crashrat posted:

Jokes on the Boomer generation then because Gen X is hanging on to what capital they've accumulated with bailing wire and prayers - and Millennials are just hoping to make ends meet and not have everything blow up in their face because one thing goes wrong since they don't have the bailing wire (read: decades of experience and networking) that Gen X has.

There's not much milk to be had from those cows.
You're not thinking inside the capitalist box.

Healthcare loans will be the next crushing weight upon Americans. You and your kids might have escaped higher education debt, but are you really going to let mother/gramma go to live in a nursing home? She would be so much better in an assisted living facility that costs 4x your own monthly living expenses. All you need to do is to take out a $250k non-dischargable loan for her to live her remaining years in peace and comfort.

What, you won't do it? You loving monster!

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Cheesus posted:

You're not thinking inside the capitalist box.

Healthcare loans will be the next crushing weight upon Americans. You and your kids might have escaped higher education debt, but are you really going to let mother/gramma go to live in a nursing home? She would be so much better in an assisted living facility that costs 4x your own monthly living expenses. All you need to do is to take out a $250k non-dischargable loan for her to live her remaining years in peace and comfort.

What, you won't do it? You loving monster!

Oh, you innocent summer's child

like you'll have a choice

quote:

John Pittas, 47, is fighting a Pennsylvania court's order to pay his mother's $93,000 nursing home stay under a "filial support law" that is in effect in 29 states.

Pennsylvania's statute makes certain family members liable to "care for and maintain or financially assist" certain "indigent" members of the family, a law which some legal experts call "disturbing."

Pittas' mother, Maryann, now 66, was admitted for six months to Liberty Nursing Rehabilitation Center in Allentown, Pa., in September 2007 after breaking two legs in a car accident. In March 2008, Pittas' mother, who was born in the U.S., relocated to Greece, where her two other children live.

As the only remaining family member left in the U.S., Pittas was left to foot the $92,943.41 bill after his mother's Medicaid application was not approved in time. The Health Care & Retirement Corp. of America, which owns Liberty Nursing & Rehabilitation Center, sued Pittas in May 2008 for the money and a trial court sided with the nursing home in 2011.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill/story?id=16405807

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!
May 31, 2006

the ron paul kill your father ads becoming solid financial advice is a fascinating development

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Ze Pollack posted:

the ron paul kill your father ads becoming solid financial advice is a fascinating development

Note that 29 states have similar laws -- they're just usually not enforced because in almost all cases Medicaid will cover long-term care expenses for the indigent elderly, and because Pennsylvania's law allows third parties to file the suits. Both of which are things that could be easily changed, especially if something like ALEC started backing a push.

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jan 31, 2018

Reik
Mar 8, 2004

mastershakeman posted:

Great advice, thanks. I guess I need to sit down and reread the regulations and figure out what happens with CSRs and whatnot. The last thing I want is for the subsidized premium to go to unsubsidized because of a bureaucratic decision - if they demand tax forms from last year and that I submit my expected income to match exactly what those tax forms say, I don't have any choice but to comply.

FWIW the plan I'm on without factoring in cost sharing and subsidies is $1300/mo premium, $14k deductible for a family of 3 in IL.

Do you think your income is going to be higher in 2018? If so you may want to put away a little every month to account for the difference that you will be liable for in your next tax return. Unfortunately, last year's W-2 is probably the best predictor for 2018 income on average.

The stuff going on with CSRs lately does not involve people being eligible for them, it involves whether or not the insurance company will pay for them or if the government does, and if the insurance company does pay for them they're going to pass that through to the government by converting them to APTC subsidies through their rate increases. People at or below 400% of the FPL are insulated from rate increases though as your final premium is a fixed percent of your income.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007



That poo poo is fuckin' crazy.

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

Reik posted:

Do you think your income is going to be higher in 2018? If so you may want to put away a little every month to account for the difference that you will be liable for in your next tax return. Unfortunately, last year's W-2 is probably the best predictor for 2018 income on average.

The stuff going on with CSRs lately does not involve people being eligible for them, it involves whether or not the insurance company will pay for them or if the government does, and if the insurance company does pay for them they're going to pass that through to the government by converting them to APTC subsidies through their rate increases. People at or below 400% of the FPL are insulated from rate increases though as your final premium is a fixed percent of your income.

Last year's W-2 is a good predictor for part-time people, but Healthcare.gov has no idea whatosever how to handle independent contractors.

Especially if you work sales that have a long leadup it could be a year or more before your income is finalized - you're really just guessing what you'll make in future years - which makes things nigh impossible to estimate.



I really do not expect these laws to hold up in the long run. The fact that you can be held responsible for a private debt that you had no knowledge you were incurring.

Further - since these are state laws - I expect if this tries to take off that people are going to move from whatever state their parents are in to avoid being reached civilly. Yes, long arm statues exist, but you still have to have to pass the minimum contacts test. If your parents are in Pennsylvania - and you're in Colorado and you have nothing to do with them or any other parties in Pennsylvania - then that private debt collector is more or less hosed.

Which means those debt holders will try all kinds of due process fuckery to get personal jurisdiction over someone, and as soon as a judge lets it through - and a major legal group likes the fact pattern of the case - it's almost certainly going to head to SCOTUS. I doubt a majority of SCOTUS is going to support this, but whatever ruling they make would likely be narrow with some strong dicta about how this is something Congress needs to address rather than the judiciary.

But this hasn't been litigated all that heavily yet. The judiciary tends to be rather conservative, and by that I mean having a strong preference for clear contractual duties. The legal concept of filial support may have been on the books for a long time, but since it's been so unenforced - and the enforcement seems to be capricious at this point - that I don't expect it to be treated too well. For example I couldn't see someone like Richard Posner supporting this whatsoever.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Crashrat posted:


I really do not expect these laws to hold up in the long run. The fact that you can be held responsible for a private debt that you had no knowledge you were incurring.


I think IF we continue on the Trumpian, war-of-all-against-all, free-market-means-gently caress-you-got-mine conservatism, and don't see comprehensive expansion of Medicaid long term care benefits, then this sort of thing could get very common. Health care is a huge industry with a lot of lobbying power and broke rear end folks don't have lobbyists. Remove the medicaid coverage of long term care and I could see a group like ALEC pushing for more of this kind of thing, easily.

I mean, if it's the law, it's the law; there's no constitutional right to not pay your parent's debts. The main difference in Pennsylvania is that under Penn law third parties can sue under these provisions, which other states don't generally allow, but could, if there were relatively small changes made to their statutes.

That said, right now given the millennial lean and Trumpian incompetence I don't think such a future is particularly likely, but it's not impossible either -- I'd say more like 70/30 or 80/20 against this sort of thing spreading nationally.

TheBalor
Jun 18, 2001
Would it not count as corruption of blood?

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

TheBalor posted:

Would it not count as corruption of blood?

Only explicitly prohibited as a punishment for treason.

The Phlegmatist
Nov 24, 2003

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Health care is a huge industry with a lot of lobbying power and broke rear end folks don't have lobbyists.

It's pretty complicated. The healthcare industry isn't afraid of UHC since regulatory capture has always worked out for them so far. Aetna already makes half of its revenue from federal and state governments because of Medicare Advantage and administering state Medicaid plans.

The big open question is whether UHC in the US is smart and controls medical costs by decreasing provider revenue and prevents a bubble in the provider sector over the next 20 years or if it's just another way the healthcare sector can engage in egregious rent-seeking (e.g., taxpayers fund NIH which discovers off-label uses for patented medications, Medicare is forced to pay whatever price pharma companies set for them and is also forced to cover certain classes of medications such as anti-cancer drugs = R&D costs are socialized, profits are privatized)

Sulphagnist
Oct 10, 2006

WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

We're already seeing people commit suicide to avoid an illness causing a financial burden to their family members, these sorts of laws are going to make that more and more common. Just, Jesus Christ.

Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

The Phlegmatist posted:

It's pretty complicated. The healthcare industry isn't afraid of UHC since regulatory capture has always worked out for them so far. Aetna already makes half of its revenue from federal and state governments because of Medicare Advantage and administering state Medicaid plans.

The big open question is whether UHC in the US is smart and controls medical costs by decreasing provider revenue and prevents a bubble in the provider sector over the next 20 years or if it's just another way the healthcare sector can engage in egregious rent-seeking (e.g., taxpayers fund NIH which discovers off-label uses for patented medications, Medicare is forced to pay whatever price pharma companies set for them and is also forced to cover certain classes of medications such as anti-cancer drugs = R&D costs are socialized, profits are privatized)

I'm honestly shocked the Republicans didn't try to attack the 80/20 Rule - and it's the 85/15 Rule for large group plans AFAIK.

That was honestly one of the biggest accomplishments of the PP-ACA that I never hear anyone talk about. I figure if we could get *that* past Congress then surely a reform of how publicly-funded research into drugs & treatments should not be privatized for profit will have a real shot.

Reik
Mar 8, 2004

Crashrat posted:

I'm honestly shocked the Republicans didn't try to attack the 80/20 Rule - and it's the 85/15 Rule for large group plans AFAIK.

That was honestly one of the biggest accomplishments of the PP-ACA that I never hear anyone talk about. I figure if we could get *that* past Congress then surely a reform of how publicly-funded research into drugs & treatments should not be privatized for profit will have a real shot.

A significant majority of health insurance is employer group insurance, which already maintains close to a 85% medical loss ratio because insurers compete for these groups, which probably made it easier for slip in for the individual/exchange policies.

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Crashrat
Apr 2, 2012

Reik posted:

A significant majority of health insurance is employer group insurance, which already maintains close to a 85% medical loss ratio because insurers compete for these groups, which probably made it easier for slip in for the individual/exchange policies.

Since you work in the industry, if you know enough to answer - is there any data on the increase of independent contractors and a decrease in the overall size of the large group market?

Because everything I seem to read at this point pretty much says forcing as many people into IC status as possible is the new thing. The Dept. of Labor indiciated it was going to crack down on it towards the end of the Obama Administration, but that waned fast once Trump was elected - and all the administrative-level decisions on independent contractors was reversed.

At this point it seems like a matter of time before companies just layoff people en masse and invite them to work as contractors.

Maybe not *that* dramatically, or all at once, but I cannot forsee a single reason they wouldn't do it - and without PP-ACA that's going to be a complete nightmare.

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