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Have you seen the rest of the internet?
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Jan 31, 2018 23:19
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moths posted:Have you seen the rest of the internet? I feel like if you're using "the rest of the internet" as your bar it's set pretty low. SA is good for some things, but because it doesn't do what you call "tone policing," like, at all, the tone is that people are rude all the time. To put it a different way, people on RPGnet are not clamoring for it to become more like this board, even if they would like it to change.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:22
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The different forums on SA all have different moderator teams, and each forum had their own rules. The Games, Tradgames, and LP forums are fairly jerk free, as far as those things go. Meanwhile there are individual threads in GBS that I read, but I avoid the form as a whole because moderation there is much looser.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:30
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People can be rude here, but can't just drop into a thread and start problem-posting knowing they're immune to consequences (since no specific rule exists against their specific behavior.) We've absolutely had some garbage people register here, with the aim of doing exactly that, and they aren't around anymore.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:38
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moths posted:People can be rude here, but can't just drop into a thread and start problem-posting knowing they're immune to consequences (since no specific rule exists against their specific behavior.) You can't do the "I'm not touching you" game, no. (At least, not in TG. There are plenty of posters who've made that their schtick in other parts of SA.) EDIT: I mean, lord knows, back when I was an RPGnet mod I was all about throwing down a hammer on top of people who had terrible, terrible posting habits that weren't technically against the rules, but usually I wasn't allowed to ban them.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:39
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Rand Brittain posted:You can't do the "I'm not touching you" game, no. (At least, not in TG. There are plenty of posters who've made that their schtick in other parts of SA.) And bans are rare here, but usually after a 24 hour Probie people will stop doing the behavior you're trying to disincentivize them from, with longer ones coming if there's a pattern of behavior. Seriously look at the leper's colony and see what people are being probated/banned for.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:47
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I don't, personally, hate RPGnet. I do hate that tone policing is the community standard over there instead of actually getting rid of disingenuous asshats who know how to toe the line just right, but...well. Tone policing. Then again, I also don't feel the need to come in and defend tone policing on a site I was demodded on, so diff'rent strokes and all that.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:53
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Also different parts of SA are basically different communities, it's not monolithic. Hell, TG is part of Games and yet it's very different from Games itself. So it goes.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:06
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Mors Rattus posted:I don't, personally, hate RPGnet. I do hate that tone policing is the community standard over there instead of actually getting rid of disingenuous asshats who know how to toe the line just right, but...well. Tone policing. For someone who doesn't hate it, you sure feel the burning need to keep saying it out loud while being relentlessly passive aggressive about it, but that's the beauty of a forum that doesn't tone police I guess.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:14
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Cessna posted:About 1/3 of the rpg.net mods are lawyers as it is, and they do it for free. (Madness!) That's all well and good but there is a big difference between modding an Internet forum for your buddy and establishing an attorney-client relationship. On top of that you don't exactly get an "unbiased outside opinion" from the people that moderate the site.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:16
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Forum internal politics are the loving lamest thing imaginable jesus loving christ
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Feb 1, 2018 00:17
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Rhandhali posted:That's all well and good but there is a big difference between modding an Internet forum for your buddy and establishing an attorney-client relationship. On top of that you don't exactly get an "unbiased outside opinion" from the people that moderate the site. Of course; I'm only pointing out the coincidence.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:25
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:For someone who doesn't hate it, you sure feel the burning need to keep saying it out loud while being relentlessly passive aggressive about it, but that's the beauty of a forum that doesn't tone police I guess. Well, when I first brought it up, it was because it was relevant to what was being discussed. I mean, I've got an account there and I wish it was a better place to post.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:48
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Cessna posted:There's a saying in the military, "our SOP is written in blood." That is, every one of those silly, arbitrary rules is there because someone did something and things went badly. That's why we have so many silly things built up - because, yes, someone DID post "hey, Tangency, I'm bleeding profusely, should I get help" so we had to say "please don't ask for medical advice" in the rules. Well, you're a rules-enforcer, so you can't really shrug and say "I don't agree with these rules" while continuing to voluntarily enforce them. It's not even like your livelihood depends on this job, right? You don't disagree with these rules and how they're enforced so strongly that you'd choose to resign as a moderator rather than enforce them, basically. As for the first paragraph I quoted: a bunch of lawyers should in particular understand that good laws are not written in reaction to specific cases. By extension, good forums rules are not written in reaction to individual incidents on the forums. Ask your fellow lawyer buddies what they think of the body of American statutory law, taken as a whole. It should be illustrative of this principle.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:55
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:For someone who doesn't hate it, you sure feel the burning need to keep saying it out loud while being relentlessly passive aggressive about it, but that's the beauty of a forum that doesn't tone police I guess. I mostly don't use the site because no one ever really has anything interesting to say about games, probably because the rules make it tough to criticize them.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:57
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Speaking as someone who's been on the receiving end of a lot of RPG.net moderation specifically for things like "tone" and "italicizing things too much" and "arguing with people when they said things like '4e is a tabletop MMO' and doing so with reasonable politeness but just, like, kind of too often I guess' ", I think it's... pretty fine, honestly? Like, sure, you have to watch what you say to not be a jerk sometimes. I feel like my younger, more combative self honestly could have stood being less of a jerk. I also think that the way the rules and mods explicitly and consistently shut down the bullshit thing a lot of internet places do to, e.g., women posting about sexism is pretty great and a big deal if you're, say, a woman looking to discuss RPGs without a bunch of aggressive fuckwads telling you your lived experiences are wrong. But the whole passive-aggressiveness thing is... like, okay, sure? There's always a line on one side of which is too much aggressiveness and on the other side of which is *not quite enough* aggressiveness. This forum has that too, it's just in a different place. All that does is change where the Dickishness Bar is, and the lower the Dickishness Bar is compared to people's Normal Level of Dickishness, the more people will be passive-aggressive. Whether you prefer open dickishness to passive-aggressive dickishness is really a matter of preference. And, like, yes, the forum definitely sets that bar pretty low and encourages passive aggressiveness, but that's a side effect of a variety of other things, some of which are worthwhile. LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 01:04
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TG's definitely saltier than RPGnet, but I wouldn't consider it a particularly jerk-heavy place. The political leanings and sensibilities are on the same general side of the spectrum in both, and tend towards the progressive. Ironically I find TG far better for discussing politically related things than RPGnet. Its not just the tone policing over there, its the knock-on effect of that sort of environment which favors performative bashing one another for not being sufficiently woke. I can only think of one regular over here who's big on activist posturing, and they get regularly mocked for it. Most people talking about political themes here seem to give zero shits about getting patted on the back for that sort of image. Though granted, instead we mostly just hate read stuff written by awful people and then complain about how backwards they are. So its not like its healthier really, just less annoying.
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Feb 1, 2018 01:06
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There's a lot that can be said about why SA is a very stupid lovely forum and there's things I don't like about its culture (even in TG!) but when someone's being a dick here you can call them a dick. I also appreciate that mods on here sometimes try to think about what they're doing and make bans and probations based on like patterns of behaviour rather than crossreferencing a set of iron-bound rules. Also, I like having big megathreads for things instead of dozens of threads for every separate subject about every game. EDIT: I really can't understate how much better it is to be able to make fun of someone for being a loving weirdo instead of having to treat them like a serious adult no matter what they're saying and if I'd learned that earlier I could have saved myself a lot of lovely online experiences honestly. Down With People fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 02:28
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Down With People posted:EDIT: I really can't understate how much better it is to be able to make fun of someone for being a loving weirdo instead of having to treat them like a serious adult no matter what they're saying and if I'd learned that earlier I could have saved myself a lot of lovely online experiences honestly. 
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Feb 1, 2018 03:16
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Posting strength only comes after a lifetime of battlefields... You suffer the flames and grow stronger or be crushed beneath the heel of those who can.
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Feb 1, 2018 03:34
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Down With People posted:EDIT: I really can't understate how much better it is to be able to make fun of someone for being a loving weirdo instead of having to treat them like a serious adult no matter what they're saying and if I'd learned that earlier I could have saved myself a lot of lovely online experiences honestly. Plutonis posted:Posting strength only comes after a lifetime of battlefields... You suffer the flames and grow stronger or be crushed beneath the heel of those who can.
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Feb 1, 2018 03:53
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If you wanna fight me fight these tears
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Feb 1, 2018 03:57
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Rand Brittain posted:You can't do the "I'm not touching you" game, no. (At least, not in TG. There are plenty of posters who've made that their schtick in other parts of SA.) It's funny how you keep running in here to defend the RPGnet staff after they kicked you out, and also get people here even angrier by badly defending their bad moderation choices. Alien Rope Burn posted:Also different parts of SA are basically different communities, it's not monolithic. Hell, TG is part of Games and yet it's very different from Games itself. This is true, and large parts of the forum have been imploding and re-imploding for years now due to cycles of mod drama related to how passive-aggression, open aggression (but ironically), and various slurs should be handled. TG is surprisingly chill compared to a lot of the larger forums.
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Feb 1, 2018 04:36
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Nuns with Guns posted:It's funny how you keep running in here to defend the RPGnet staff after they kicked you out, and also get people here even angrier by badly defending their bad moderation choices. Well, you're wrong about it! I could name several moderation choices I'm still bitter about; I just don't.
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Feb 1, 2018 04:44
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, you're wrong about it!
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Feb 1, 2018 04:46
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Down With People posted:EDIT: I really can't understate how much better it is to be able to make fun of someone for being a loving weirdo instead of having to treat them like a serious adult no matter what they're saying and if I'd learned that earlier I could have saved myself a lot of lovely online experiences honestly.  I like RPG.net a lot. I compiled Cliff's Notes for Tangency after the last guy who was doing it went away. It's a good board full of good folks. But there are some bad folks too, and the fact that I can't mock those people without mercy when they're being asshats is part of the reason I'm not really posting there anymore. I mean, hey, that doesn't have to change anything for them; it's not like RPG.net is feeling the terrible pain of having a DivineCoffeeBinge-shaped hole in their lives. Just, y'know, it's a thing. Having said that, I will say that "please do not cast spells on people on RPG.Net" remains my favorite earnestly-delivered mod warning on any online community I have ever participated in, so there's that, too
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Feb 1, 2018 05:31
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Having said that, I will say that "please do not cast spells on people on RPG.Net" remains my favorite earnestly-delivered mod warning on any online community I have ever participated in, so there's that, too I once saw "People are not pussies for not wanting to roleplay child rape." in someone's ban message from a thread where they were extolling the glories of Clanbook:Baali. And that was among the lesser objectionable things he was saying, just the really goddamn obvious one.
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Feb 1, 2018 06:03
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I just want to add that all the RPGnet mod decisions I made were obviously the best ones. Well, see ya
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Feb 1, 2018 14:11
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Cessna posted:How much do professionals or arbitrators charge? The company that hosts rpg.net (Skotos) isn't rich. I do SMM/CM/Forum Modding for a living, and the last subcontractor I worked for paid me $33 AUD an hour, so you can probably take a stab at what they billed clients. Cheapest clients we had opted for 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 1.5 hours a day on weekends. This is not a job you can live on unless you jag a salaried inhouse role at a multinational. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 16:42
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Kurieg posted:I think my main problem with BHM and RPG.net is that he got to play Moderator in the Beast Kickstarter thread where everyone was telling him that the book was hella rapey, and he got to tell people not to talk about how rapey his book was. On top of that, Cessna, "I'm trying to deliver what our users say they want" only works if users feel like they can say something. Generally, in my experience, when people have pointed out this type of conflict of interest on RPG.net they get angry redtext aimed at them. Under such circumstances, how do you seriously expect people to raise the issue? Given that you, yourself, note that the moderators sometimes project a rather authoritarian image, can you really blame people for saying to themselves "Well, I could PM or start a trouble ticket, but then I'd just flag myself as a dissident and I don't think it's worth the risk of the poo poo I'd catch or the extra scrutiny they'd put me under." The fact that none of the RPG.net mods or ex-mods on this thread have dared touch the subject since Kurieg brought it up kind of speaks volumes. Cessna posted:That's why we have so many silly things built up - because, yes, someone DID post "hey, Tangency, I'm bleeding profusely, should I get help" so we had to say "please don't ask for medical advice" in the rules. Hell, do you comb the rules every time you start a thread, even under relaxed, non-urgent circumstances? If the answer's "yes" then that is conscientious but, I'd suggest. more conscientious than it's really reasonable to expect most people to be when the rules have gotten to this level of bloat.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:39
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Warthur posted:The fact that none of the RPG.net mods or ex-mods on this thread have dared touch the subject since Kurieg brought it up kind of speaks volumes. I've come to realize that there is no possible way to satisfy everyone. There are thousands of people over there, each with their own view of how things should be. As such, there's only so much I can really respond to productively over here. If you want to hold some sort of comprehensive review - Everything Wrong With Rpg.net - you are of course welcome to do so, but I can't realistically promise to fix everything. No one can. It's unrealistic to think that you'll make the site what you want - no one gets that, not even me. If you want to bring up problems over there, please do. This won't make you a "dissident." Bluntly, we don't have time or the inclination to make up some sort of Sulla-esque proscription list.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:57
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I'd say not letting creators control how people are allowed to discuss their work would be a gigantic first step in the right direction?
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Feb 1, 2018 18:02
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Kurieg posted:I'd say not letting creators control how people are allowed to discuss their work would be a gigantic first step in the right direction? We try to make sure that doesn't happen. I can't promise that "no mod who has ever worked for Company X will EVER mod a thread on their games" because that's unrealistic. I'm sorry, but I think there's no way I'll be able to resolve things to your satisfaction here. As it is, I've tried to explain my perspective, and point out that different forums have different standards. That's not being dismissive, that's a fact. If rpg.net doesn't work for you, hopefully you'll find someplace that does.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:07
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Cessna posted:We try to make sure that doesn't happen. I can't promise that "no mod who has ever worked for Company X will EVER mod a thread on their games" because that's unrealistic. Oh, rpg.net doesn't and probably never will work for me. I'm just saying that if you want people to openly and honestly discuss games you probably don't want someone Mod-Texting "We are no longer discussing this, we are now discussing this." Just having another mod speak up, visibly and in the thread, when a content creator is stepping over their bounds to say "You cannot possibly be expected to stay impartial in this, please stop trying to moderate in this thread" would have been a huge step forward. Instead people were getting threatened with infractions for speaking back against a moderator for honest critiques of his work.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:14
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The fundamental problem with RPG.net - one amply demonstrated here - is that the people running it still think of it as this little hobbyist site populated by friends. It's not. It's one of the biggest communities and institutions in this space, with thousands of users. You're not some random Discord channel. You're basically facebook for table top nerds. Maybe that's not what you signed up for, but it's what you have now, and the continual refusal of RPG.net and the people involved with it to confront that fact is a huge problem.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:15
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The fundamental problem with RPG.net - one amply demonstrated here - is that the people running it still think of it as this little hobbyist site populated by friends. I'm curious - what change would you make to improve the site? What would you do differently? What do you think is the biggest problem RPGnet has?
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Feb 1, 2018 18:16
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Comrade Gorbash posted:You're basically facebook for table top nerds. Facebook has billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employees and they still don't catch a fraction of the problems they have. We have the economic clout of a taco truck at best. We simply can not hire "a team of crack professionals to watch the site 24/7 and make sure everything goes smoothly and no one is ever biased or wrong ever."
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Feb 1, 2018 18:24
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Cessna posted:Facebook has billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employees and they still don't catch a fraction of the problems they have. You said you're serious about dealing with complex and important issues like harassment. Your statements here make it clear you absolutely lack that seriousness, and that you don't even realize it. And you're not willing to confront the fact that your community is big enough that these issues will come up again. The only thing you've demonstrated any seriousness about is protecting the RPG.net image. Maybe you didn't sign up for that job, but it's the job that actually exists. So either do it right, or find someone who can. EDIT: And while I said you did about as well as you could with the McFarland situation as it occurred, patting yourself on the back for that is uncalled for, stupid, and gross. Part of the reason that situation existed was that RPG.net made no attempt to prepare for it. Once is excusable. That you've clearly learned nothing and intend to make no preparations going forward isn't. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Feb 1, 2018 |
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Feb 1, 2018 18:29
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Kurieg posted:Just having another mod speak up, visibly and in the thread, when a content creator is stepping over their bounds to say "You cannot possibly be expected to stay impartial in this, please stop trying to moderate in this thread" would have been a huge step forward. Instead people were getting threatened with infractions for speaking back against a moderator for honest critiques of his work. I suspect that you're referring to Matt's handling of Beast. I'll be frank - I don't like White Wolf games, so I didn't follow those threads; I only have a limited amount of time. But from what I've been told, yes, we messed up there by not watching Matt's modding closely enough. But he's been permabanned, and if you see that sort of thing happening again LET ME KNOW.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:31
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Cessna posted:Facebook has billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employees and they still don't catch a fraction of the problems they have. A community of that size doesn't need 24/7 coverage, without seeing your volumes of reports and new posts to sift through, you'd probably do just fine with one professional 3 hours a day - 1 hour on, 7 hours off across a day, or if your userbase is predominantly American, 2 hour morning, 1 hour lunch, 1 hour evening base on US mountain time.
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Feb 1, 2018 18:32
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