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So the Polish Senate passed a bill stating that: "anyone, against the facts, that publicly states that the Polish nation or state was responsible or co-responsible for Third Reich crimes... is punishable by up to three years in prison"
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Feb 1, 2018 15:27
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That is how they abbreviate it indeed. Not sure how that is relevant to "ukrs" being used by younger Russian speakers to refer to Ukrainians in derogatory matter. Cat Mattress posted:I remember "ukrop" being used as a slur but not ukr. cinci zoo sniper posted:Ukrop both was and is much more common. We're taking that one back though! 
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Feb 1, 2018 15:53
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E: double post because the forums are dying like lowtax
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Feb 1, 2018 16:02
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mobby_6kl posted:It just shows that it's a pretty standard abbreviation that is (possibly, I've never seen it myself, but won't dispute) getting hijacked by some Russians.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:11
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Unstoppabro posted:So the Polish Senate passed a bill stating that: "anyone, against the facts, that publicly states that the Polish nation or state was responsible or co-responsible for Third Reich crimes... is punishable by up to three years in prison" Keyword being "against the facts". Where there are crimes such as taking part in pogroms and szmalcownictwo with proven Polish participation, it's - according to this bill - perfectly ok to speak about them. Or so i hope.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:48
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Pierogi posted:Keyword being "against the facts". Where there are crimes such as taking part in pogroms and szmalcownictwo with proven Polish participation, it's - according to this bill - perfectly ok to speak about them. The report I read said the bill also has a provision that you're allowed to discuss participation as part of artistic or academic work so presumably they're not planning on chucking Jan Gross in jail next time he visits the country, no matter how much they might want to.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:07
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From what politicians say - that was the idea. They either didn't word it properly or didn't talk it through with Israel. Second part is surprising, because despite hard right leaning PiS tries their best to be friendly with Israel. But now, since PiS politicians are as reasonable as 3yo, we are in the middle of another international crisis 
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Feb 1, 2018 17:09
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mobby_6kl posted:It just shows that it's a pretty standard abbreviation that is (possibly, I've never seen it myself, but won't dispute) getting hijacked by some Russians. Why cow parsley / hogweed of all things?
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Feb 1, 2018 17:22
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I'm currently in a Latvian souvenir shop and I can't really decide on how many levels of irony the shopkeeper is, as they sell matryoshkas with Trump.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:24
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I'm currently in a Latvian souvenir shop and I can't really decide on how many levels of irony the shopkeeper is, as they sell matryoshkas with Trump. What's the nesting structure?
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Feb 1, 2018 17:29
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OddObserver posted:What's the nesting structure? Trump inside of Ivanka
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Feb 1, 2018 17:30
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steinrokkan posted:Why cow parsley / hogweed of all things? Also, I hope there is Putin inside Trump.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:39
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Pierogi posted:Trump inside of Ivanka Dwesa posted:Ukrop translates to dill. And Ukrop (УкрОп) = український опір = Ukrainian resistance, for the Cyrillic challenged.
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Feb 1, 2018 17:51
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Unstoppabro posted:So the Polish Senate passed a bill stating that: "anyone, against the facts, that publicly states that the Polish nation or state was responsible or co-responsible for Third Reich crimes... is punishable by up to three years in prison" They wanted people to stop using the phrase "Polish death camps" and to forbid all discussion of instances when Polish people killed Jews or collaborated with the Nazis and now this is precisely what the media from all over the world are talking about. I've seen news on this in Japanese and in Chinese, for God's sake. Great job. Too bad Witold "Frank Drebin of Polish diplomacy" Waszczykowski is not a Minister of Foreign Affairs anymore, I'd love to hear his hot takes on the subject. [I miss him  ]
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Feb 4, 2018 00:48
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steinrokkan posted:I've never heard of it, so I guess I will be more careful in the future. What's even more amusing is that Orban was Soros funded in the 80s: http://2010-2015.miniszterelnok.hu/in_english_cv_of_viktor_orban/
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Feb 4, 2018 04:32
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fez_machine posted:What's even more amusing is that Orban was Soros funded in the 80s: Hell, thats arguably why he is so paranoid.
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Feb 4, 2018 11:14
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Ardennes posted:Hell, thats arguably why he is so paranoid. Do you think Orbán thinks that he owe his position to his education funded by Open Society grants, and that others receiving such grants can displace him? Or do you mean something else?
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Feb 4, 2018 13:29
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catfry posted:Do you think Orbán thinks that he owe his position to his education funded by Open Society grants, and that others receiving such grants can displace him? Or do you mean something else? Well he was around in 1989 and knows how a group like Fidesz (which was originally a libertarian youth group) can make inroads quickly, and that is certainly feeding into his paranoia. I mean his rise from 1988 to 1990 happened in the blink of an eye. (Btw, a combination of factors led to the rise of Orban and Fidesz but they did start on the ground running in 1989-1990 and his fear is the right combination of factors could supplement him as well.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 13:43
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He would have to be deranged to think like that. That he was enabled by his education grants to receive some 'super secret special knowledge' that no one else had, that allowed him to rise to the top. No rational person thinks, "oh, I took this path and ended here, therefore I must prevent anyone else to do the same lest they replace me", specially when that magic bullet turns out to be classes in political philosophy for gods sake. I don't think it's likely that that is what's behind the attacks on Soros. I can believe that he prefers more controlled access to higher education and a less liberal society, just because that's the authoritarian path to a more controllable nation.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:06
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I think in the US Soros became the bogeyman of politics because conservatives needed a counter to the obvious bankrolling of the GOP by billionaires like Koch, DeVos, Mercer, and so on. Soros became the universal deep pocket of every illuminati globalist conspiracy theory available for paranoid nationalists to grab onto and scream about the end of the world buy more guns and freeze dried food 
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Feb 4, 2018 14:11
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catfry posted:He would have to be deranged to think like that. That he was enabled by his education grants to receive some 'super secret special knowledge' that no one else had, that allowed him to rise to the top. I wouldn't say it is knowledge, but let's be honest here the guy went from a college student to a major political figure in the space of a year. It wasn't a specific class, but probably a combination of political access and being in the right place at the right time by being a young libertarian Hungarian at Oxford. It had to be factor. Anyway, it isn't specifically educational grants he is concerned for, but that there could be another one of him and that isn't irrational. At the same time, authoritarians do like clamping down on education because it gives them more control, but the answer is why he is so concerned about Soros specifically because Soros does have a mission to promote more political and economically liberal societies (and doesn't hide it) which lets be honest contrasts with Orban's style. I have no idea if Open Democracy/Open Society is actually any real threat to Orban, but Orban clearly thinks so. The irony is US conservatives absolute didn't have a problem when the target was the Soviets, but when their own variant of authoritarianism was questioned. That said, Open Democracy has always been very economically liberal/free market, so the divide is mostly on social issues and civil society. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 14:20
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Ardennes posted:I wouldn't say it is knowledge, but let's be honest here the guy went from a college student to a major political figure in the space on a year. It wasn't a class, but probably a combination of political access and being in the right place at the right time by being a young libertarian Hungarian at Oxford. It had to be factor there somewhere. The open society does not provide grants that give political access or enable being in the right place at the right time any more than anything else. They enable education. They did not create Orbán, or were even a major factor. It is not sensible to point to such a generic thing as an education grant in a persons life and say, "this thing shaped who they are, it will surely shape others similarly".
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Feb 4, 2018 14:43
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Dire Chinchilla posted:They wanted people to stop using the phrase "Polish death camps" and to forbid all discussion of instances when Polish people killed Jews or collaborated with the Nazis and now this is precisely what the media from all over the world are talking about. I've seen news on this in Japanese and in Chinese, for God's sake. Great job. Out of curiosity, what's the prevailing opinion of this law in Poland?
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Feb 4, 2018 14:45
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catfry posted:The open society does not provide grants that give political access or enable being in the right place at the right time any more than anything else. They enable education. They did not create Orbán, or were even a major factor. It is not sensible to point to such a generic thing as an education grant in a persons life and say, "this thing shaped who they are, it will surely shape others similarly". The issue isn't that it shaped his life in a generic fashion, but he very very quickly became a major political figure. Part of education, especially elite institutions, is access and being able to meet the right people at the right time (like I said especially for a right-libertarian Hungarian in the late 1980s at Oxford). To be fair, we don't know what happened in every minute of his life, but it isn't unreasonable to say it probably had a major impact on his political career looking at the very specific timing of when it happened and what Orban was doing at the same time. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 14:46
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Ardennes posted:The issue isn't that it shaped his life in a generic fashion, but he very very quickly became a major political figure. Part of education, especially elite institutions, is access and being able to meet the right people at the right time (like I said especially for a right-libertarian Hungarian in the late 1980s at Oxford). Lots of paths lead to meeting the right people. If you want to prevent people meeting the right people, where do you even begin? Attacking education grants has to be a drop in the bucket, in the sea of people meeting the right people in all sorts of ways. You have presented the idea that Orbán preventing Soros grants is a rational move because it prevents people from meeting the right people and eventually replacing him. It still seems ludicrous as an idea.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:56
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catfry posted:Lots of paths lead to meeting the right people. If you want to prevent people meeting the right people, where do you even begin? Attacking education grants has to be a drop in the bucket, in the sea of people meeting the right people in all sorts of ways. One thing I suspect he is going after more than educational grants (including CEU), but I suspect he views the type of young libertarian he once was (ironically enough) as a threat and attacking education (especially NGO grants) it is a way to disincentive that threat (from his perspective). Orban probably doesn't want politically motivated student studying at elite foreign institutions since there is a fundamental incapability the right-authoritarian line Orban is pushing and classic liberalism. Personally, I think Soros' influence is exaggerated and the thing migrant issue has become a game of bait and switch.
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Feb 4, 2018 15:31
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I'll go along with that
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Feb 4, 2018 15:46
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Residency Evil posted:Out of curiosity, what's the prevailing opinion of this law in Poland? Overwhelmingly negative for people I've talked with. The idea is sound, but execution is very terrible. And the venomous dwarf made it "an issue of state sovereignty", and "appeasement talks with Israel should be based on the idea Poland is an sovereign state that has to defend the historic truth". The concern is valid, but it should be done by information campaign organized with Israel, not by pissing half of free world..
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Feb 4, 2018 18:18
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alex314 posted:Overwhelmingly negative for people I've talked with. The idea is sound, but execution is very terrible. And the venomous dwarf made it "an issue of state sovereignty", and "appeasement talks with Israel should be based on the idea Poland is an sovereign state that has to defend the historic truth". When you say the "idea is sound," could you elaborate on that? I've lived in the US since I was 1, but from my perspective this seems like a terrible move. It's understandable that Poland and the Polish people are frustrated when they read about "Polish concentration camps" in the news. WW2 and the Holocaust are a sensitive subject, and the Polish people are incredibly (from my perspective, perhaps too much so) attuned towards the difference between saying "Nazi concentration camps in Poland" and "Polish concentration camps," much more-so than non-Poles and the foreign press. Still, from an outsider's perspective, the optics on banning the phrasing seems incredibly poor. What real purpose does it serve, other than making Poland look backwards and anti-Semitic? Poland and the Polish people went through an incredibly tough time in the 1900s, and lost millions to the Nazis. It's also silly to deny that there weren't/aren't a minority of native Poles who didn't make life easier for the Jews before and after WW2 (and that's true for other European countries as well). Passing a tone-deaf law like this makes it appear that the tiny minority is larger than it is.
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Feb 4, 2018 19:20
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It's also about all the mainstream media articles about the Holocaust where there's only one named county - Poland. And the perpetrators are the seemingly country-less "Nazis". Therefore we're afraid the popular history will make a Nazis-Poland connection, that's why there's a drive to always add German and Germany there. No idea why Austria get a pass..
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Feb 4, 2018 19:31
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Who the hell reads "Polish concentration camp" and thinks they were run by the Poles? I don't think I know or can imagine a single person thinking that.
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Feb 4, 2018 19:33
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I think you overestimate regular public. And if not now then in 10 years.
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Feb 4, 2018 19:48
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alex314 posted:It's also about all the mainstream media articles about the Holocaust where there's only one named county - Poland. And the perpetrators are the seemingly country-less "Nazis". Therefore we're afraid the popular history will make a Nazis-Poland connection, that's why there's a drive to always add German and Germany there. No idea why Austria get a pass.. Vegetable posted:Who the hell reads "Polish concentration camp" and thinks they were run by the Poles? I don't think I know or can imagine a single person thinking that. alex314 posted:I think you overestimate regular public. And if not now then in 10 years. The Polish are hyper-sensitive to the mischaracterization of the Nazi concentration camps, but you don't have to tell the Polish that the concentration camps were built by the Nazis. I'm not sure why they think that legislating that in Poland is going to be effective in doing anything beside making Poland appear anti-Semitic.
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Feb 4, 2018 19:58
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I think the idea is to leverage EU to make that law have bigger reach , or something. It's also the case of "against the fact" clause, because the facts will be decided by Institute for National Rememberance.. I suspect political fuckery up to Putin's Russia levels. I'd rather not say what I think about Kaczyński now, since I'd rather not be held accountable later. But my county might end up as an international Pariah over one person bullshit vision...
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Feb 4, 2018 20:45
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Granted, the issue is probably greater than the incorrect use of "Polish concentration camps" but it is also targeting histories of the actual anti-Semitic policies of pre-war Poland, the action/inaction of Polish collaborators, and the rocky relationship between Jewish fighters and the Home Army. Of course, none of this was to the scale of the actual Nazis, but once a state (any state really) takes up coming up with a definitive history, it is right to wonder. I can't help but think one of the targets is Jan Gross. Th wide-spread criticism of Timothy Synder's works for minimizing if not revising less savory aspect of Poland's past (well one of many criticisms) I think has merit, history can't be in isolation.
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Feb 4, 2018 21:16
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https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-42937889 "Here are the borders," said protester Rania Mainou from Xanthi in northern Greece. "This is Macedonia. Here, these are Slavs, they are not Macedonians, we are Macedonians. Macedonia is Greek, no one can take this name, no one can use it."
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Feb 4, 2018 21:48
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Ardennes posted:Granted, the issue is probably greater than the incorrect use of "Polish concentration camps" but it is also targeting histories of the actual anti-Semitic policies of pre-war Poland, the action/inaction of Polish collaborators, and the rocky relationship between Jewish fighters and the Home Army. Of course, none of this was to the scale of the actual Nazis, but once a state (any state really) takes up coming up with a definitive history, it is right to wonder. I can't help but think one of the targets is Jan Gross. Citation needed for those claims, especially your implication that it was a larger issue in Poland than in other countries, which independent studies have found to be not the case. Either way, it's a tough subject. Anti-semitism was widespread throughout Europe in the 1800s/early 1900s, and Poland was one of the largest homes for the Jewish People prior to WW2. Pure math says that there will be some anti-semitic activity. At the root of it, I think the Poles are tired of defending themselves and the actions of a small minority during a period of time that their entire country was occupied by the Nazis, while other countries (Vichy France, etc) seem to get a pass in the media over their transgressions against the Jewish people during WW2.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:00
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Duckman wants to "reinvent" modern history, he doesn't care about valid points. It looks a bit like the "Cursed Soldiers" bullshit.. In times like this I wish Władysław Bartoszewski was still here.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:42
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SaltyJesus posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-42937889
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Feb 4, 2018 23:15
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Residency Evil posted:Citation needed for those claims, especially your implication that it was a larger issue in Poland than in other countries, which independent studies have found to be not the case. Either way, it's a tough subject. Anti-semitism was widespread throughout Europe in the 1800s/early 1900s, and Poland was one of the largest homes for the Jewish People prior to WW2. Pure math says that there will be some anti-semitic activity. Btw, I don't know how you get I saying Poland was especially bad. I personally don't think Polish was that much of a standout considering many of its neighbors, but the law in particular is cutting across the board. The law is taking a hard line position on something is just indefensible from a historical perspective since it doesn't have any nuance to it, because lets admit things did happen that should be remembered. Should it be to anywhere on the same scale as what the Nazis did? Perhaps not, but it should be in the history books. (If anything I said in that quote it wasn't to the scale to the Nazis...I don't know what you want me to say.) Also, I don't know if Vichy France gets much of a pass, maybe from the FN and elements of the French right?
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Feb 4, 2018 23:16
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