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Oh, the other thing that bothers me with RPG.net is that even the merest bit of sass can result in tone-policing infractions, even when it's completely warranted in the context of the thread. It literally only took me a few seconds to find an example of that on the front page of Trouble Tickets.
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Feb 1, 2018 23:46
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As someone who used to post on RPGnet and doesn't anymore, I think it is intensely hosed up that you have moderators who are professional game developers. How could anyone expect an unbiased discussion of their games? How can anyone expect that criticism of their work will not result in a ban? Saying that they're not allowed to moderate threads on their own work is disingenuous, in part because nobody polices them and in part because they could just as easily ask another mod to step in on their behalf. RPGNet is too big a community to be this weirdly incestual with, specifically, Onyx Path/White Wolf game developers. You're going to dismiss this because that's what you do, but you really really need to consider it.  WTF, Matt Mcfarland's wife is still a moderator. You don't think that presents a problem?
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Feb 1, 2018 23:58
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if only you put the same effort into figuring out poo poo on your own (rather than asking ''well what would YOU do'' every five minutes) that you put into defending rpg.net here
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Feb 1, 2018 23:59
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Usually if you put in somebody who isn't a game publisher in as a moderator they wind up becoming one later.
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Feb 2, 2018 00:05
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:As someone who used to post on RPGnet and doesn't anymore, I think it is intensely hosed up that you have moderators who are professional game developers. How could anyone expect an unbiased discussion of their games? How can anyone expect that criticism of their work will not result in a ban? Saying that they're not allowed to moderate threads on their own work is disingenuous, in part because nobody polices them and in part because they could just as easily ask another mod to step in on their behalf. 
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Feb 2, 2018 00:07
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Rand Brittain posted:Usually if you put in somebody who isn't a game publisher in as a moderator they wind up becoming one later. Yeah you're right better keep the same tiny community of moderators forever then, it would be mean to de-mod someone for conflicts of interest. EDIT: Let me be clearer. If this was still the same RPGnet that it was in, say, 1997, nobody would care how it was moderated. Now it's one of maybe two or three of the major social platforms for this global hobby/industry. When you're a tiny niche site you can be reactive. When you're a significant part of the global infrastructure that makes this hobby work the way it does, you need to take that seriously and be proactive. Cool Dad fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 00:17
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Cessna posted:So, with that in mind. Yes, I'm open to feedback. I can't promise that we'll change everything, because as I said, we have to try to balance a lot of concerns. How do we get meaningful feedback without it turning into endless theoretical debates? There's a happy middle to be found there. And an unwillingness to engage with and attempt to explain to people mod decisions is perhaps one of the biggest ways the mods present an authoritarian front. Generally, authority which is not willing to be held to account and explain its decisions is not authority you want to trust. Usually when someone is rules lawyering, sealioning, or generally arguing in bad faith it becomes evident. Not in a "I can prove this mathematically" way but in a "We all know this poo poo when we see it" instinctive sort of way. Why not engage in discussion until such a point as it descends into nitpicking and then say "This is nitpicking, we can pick this up if there is a substantive point here but as it stands there isn't one."
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Feb 2, 2018 00:27
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Cessna posted:Absolutely. And it is hard to find a good balance between hearing people out and burning out the staff. Perhaps if mods took sabbaticals on occasion, divested of their mod powers and access and posting as regular users for a while, they'd get to refamiliarise themselves with how stuff looks from a regular user's point of view, which is invaluable. Rand Brittain posted:Usually if you put in somebody who isn't a game publisher in as a moderator they wind up becoming one later.
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Feb 2, 2018 00:38
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I don’t know what the big deal is, you guys. The bad person was banned for what he did, end of story! Why anyone would ever bitch about the greater culture that made this debacle possible in the first place is completely beyond me, and we should simply be grateful that Cessna isn’t threatening to ban our rpg.net accounts for daring to mock it offsite.
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Feb 2, 2018 00:40
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So maybe I missed it, but has RPG.net done ANYTHING to change their policies following this disaster? Any single thing?
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Feb 2, 2018 00:54
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counterspin posted:So maybe I missed it, but has RPG.net done ANYTHING to change their policies following this disaster? Any single thing? This seems to presume that there’s a consensus that RPGnet’s handling of the situation was a disaster...?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:00
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counterspin posted:So maybe I missed it, but has RPG.net done ANYTHING to change their policies following this disaster? Any single thing? What disaster? They demodded and banned the guy after taking, what, 24 hours to look into it and think about it. There's literally no disaster here except that RPGnet didn't take it into their hands to personally disintegrate Matt McFarland with their purple ray. This kind of thing is why I don't take TG's pretense of being interested in social justice issues very seriously.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:00
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Cessna posted:Good idea. At a bare minimum, that'd suffice only if you had an introduction that read "Table of Contents: 1. Mission Statement, 2. Rules, 3. Policy On Reporting Sexual Harassment". I'd probably link, with a clear name like "Harassment Policy" or whatever it is the cool kids are calling it these days, in the same row as Home/Forum/Rules, to draw attention to the fact you have one and how important having one is to you. You have those yellow boxes you use to make forum-wide announcements like the death of a forum member or celebrity people actually liked, right? You can use that to say something like "RPG.net has a new policy on how we deal with reports of harassment against our users. Go here[link] to check it out!" And just leave that up for the better part of a year, in addition to the regular links, so anyone passing by sees this announcement you're taking things seriously. Cessna posted:So, with that in mind. Yes, I'm open to feedback. I can't promise that we'll change everything, because as I said, we have to try to balance a lot of concerns. How do we get meaningful feedback without it turning into endless theoretical debates? I had a long thing written up but I lost it when comparing the daily user stats between the forum I moderate and RPG.net so this'll be a bit shorter and curter: let them have it. A ten-page argument about ethics in forum moderation in TT may be annoying, but you can also just ignore most of it. Check the thread once to see if it's an honest question and answer if (if you're getting too many honest questions to handle, it's a sign you're either understaffed or have far too opaque rules), close it with a comment if it's something really obvious like posting illegal scans of RPG manuals, and for the more borderline stuff you can skim the ten pages of argument, address the most pertinent points, close it, and tell people to take it to Philosophy and Theosophy if they want to continue the theoretical waxing. I'm not just armchair-moderating here: I've been a moderator at a forum that, glancing at the "current users" listing for both, sees maybe 400 more users at a time with about as much staff. Maybe our users aren't as petulant as yours, but I've been there, genocide advocacy in threads off fire on the shoulder of Orion and roleplays about turning underage children into sex slaves near Tännhouser gate.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:02
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So multiple of their mods are over here because everything went great?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:02
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counterspin posted:So multiple of their mods are over here because everything went great? I’m here all the time, mostly in the Warhammer and painting threads.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:05
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Rand Brittain posted:This kind of thing is why I don't take TG's pretense of being interested in social justice issues very seriously. LOL yeah I'm sure that's why. You pieces of trash deserve your landfill forum.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:10
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Cannibal Smiley posted:You suggested that we should hire professional help to police our forums. I get that RPG.net doesn't have the resources for a professional moderation group. I'm not calling for that at all. What I am calling for is some level of third party review for cases where an admin, moderator, or similarly privileged person on the site is accused of inappropriate behavior. The One Shot post does a pretty good job of explaining what the problem is with not doing that. When I talk about One Shot providing a model, I mean specifically that they sought an outside perspective that could be trusted by all parties involved. In One Shot's case, it was important they pay someone to do that because they had the wherewithal to do so. It would have inappropriate for them to ask for it to be done pro bono. An RPG.net version of this wouldn't look like what One Shot did. But it worries me that it seemed to go directly from "we can't do that specific thing" to "we can't do anything different than we already are." There's a lot of ground between those positions. Maybe someone can be done pro bono - there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it just is something that shouldn't be taken advantage of when it's not needed. Maybe there's a call for donations or a Patreon. Maybe there's another way to create that trustworthy arbitration. Fundamentally my point is that the way it's been done in the past keeps having the same problems. One Shot is trying something different that could be adapted to other situations.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:17
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:LOL yeah I'm sure that's why. You pieces of trash deserve your landfill forum. And this is why I don't take your earnest concern about how to make RPGnet a better place very seriously, either.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:18
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Rand Brittain posted:And this is why I don't take your earnest concern about how to make RPGnet a better place very seriously, either. I haven't voiced a word of advice other than to tell you you're being a huge dumbass. And you are. Fish rot from the head.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:21
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Fundamentally my point is that the way it's been done in the past keeps having the same problems. One Shot is trying something different that could be adapted to other situations. Well, it's an interesting idea, but, who do you get? Like, I'm thinking back to big bans of yore and trying to imagine myself explaining to a third-party who isn't a big follower of roleplaying games why somebody like Kaiu Keiichi or Jon Chung needed to be got rid of so they could vet that decision. (Part of the trouble with spotting patterns of passive-aggressive behavior is that you have to follow someone's behavior reasonably closely to spot it, which is why I had to follow KK around for a year closing documenting everything he did in a Why Kaiu Keiichi Should Be Permabanned thread before it actually happened.) (This is also why most people tend to find mod decisions arbitrary and out of nowhere; they don't make a habit of tracking other people's posting patterns and finding reasons why they're awful, so they don't notice that somebody's inch over the line is the fifteenth inch this month.) If there's a consulting firm that could take up this kind of problem on a case-by-case basis that won't go beyond the low three digits, I'd certainly like to hear about it.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I haven't voiced a word of advice other than to tell you you're being a huge dumbass. And you are. Fish rot from the head. He ain't even a mod anywhere, mang Look, I'll head this off. Ettin, as a moderator on both SA and rpg.net, do you feel that there is a meaningful difference between how you moderate here versus how you moderate at rpg.net? If yes, then we have what is possibly a productive conversation. If no, then it's pointless, because we're literally getting the same moderation here vs. there.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:24
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, it's an interesting idea, but, who do you get? "Oh but who do you get? See you can't answer right away so it's impossible, so doing nothing is clearly the answer." gently caress all the way off. Doing things the right way takes effort. It's part of why you're lovely at it. By the way, Cessna and Cannibal Smiley, I ain't gonna back down on sharp criticisms if I feel they're warranted at you, but I'm not gonna take this mealy mouthed bullshit as part of your points.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:28
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Let me be clear. I don't give a poo poo about your concern trolling self-serving "perspective." You're part of the problem, and if nothing else, the fact that RPGnet booted you off their mod team is a sign of them having an interest in improving. No, I'm literally asking whether you know anybody like that because I know a lot of people who could probably hire them.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:29
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Stephenls posted:I’m here all the time, mostly in the Warhammer and painting threads. Not on SA, in this thread talking about this incident. Also, how can any organization not view the revelation that one of their long time managers is a sexual predator as anything other than a disaster? Also, since no one of you have answered my actual question, the answer is presumably no, you haven't done a single thing. Which means that you deserve all the hell you catch. counterspin fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 01:34
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counterspin posted:Not on SA, in this thread talking about this incident. Also, how can any organization not view the revelation that one of their long time managers as a sexual predator as anything other than a disaster. How indeed... 
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Feb 2, 2018 01:35
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, it's an interesting idea, but, who do you get? I remember that. Somebody popped up immediately to ask how shitposting was defined. He also enjoyed his pet theories about White Wolf, like them tanking Mage to make Vampire sell more.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:35
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Dawgstar posted:I remember that. Somebody popped up immediately to ask what shitposting was defined. He also enjoyed his pet theories about White Wolf, like them tanking Mage to make Vampire sell more. Oh, yeah, someone nailed it on the head when they said he posted like a paranoid, only about White Wolf instead of the Illuminati. Anybody who disagreed with him was doing it as part of some kind of sinister agenda, and he was always on the lookout for anybody trying to inject moral relativism into game lines by suggesting that his characters couldn't fix the world's problems as perfect enlightened despots, because if they couldn't it would mean that BAD GUYS WIN. You know what, I am going to go ahead and link this old infraction notice because it's a very nice piece of prose. Rand Brittain fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 01:37
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Bedlamdan posted:Look, I'll head this off. Ettin, as a moderator on both SA and rpg.net, do you feel that there is a meaningful difference between how you moderate here versus how you moderate at rpg.net? If yes, then we have what is possibly a productive conversation. If no, then it's pointless, because we're literally getting the same moderation here vs. there. I haven't done much modding on RPGnet in ages, I mostly poke around for ban evaders every couple months. Besides that though the board cultures and mod rules (e.g. we don't do threadbans) are different so yeah probably.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:38
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...and you think that it'd be difficult to explain why this was a problem poster, huh.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:38
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Mors Rattus posted:...and you think that it'd be difficult to explain why this was a problem poster, huh. I mean, it took me a year to convince people of it who actually did know something about the issues in question, so yeah.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:42
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Also a pretty big strawman, to go from "having a neutral arbitrator of some kind to deal with cases of serious accusations against forum staff so you aren't asking their friends to try and adjudicate it" to "all mod decisions appealed through third party arbitration." This is another issue with this argument - there are substantive differences between someone bitching about being banned for derailing conspiracy theories, and an issue about abuse of power, harassment, and conflict of interest. Yes moderation decisions have come up here, but it's specifically because of their direct connection to the more serious problem, and how allowing certain kinds of moderation creates an environment that shields abuse of power.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:43
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, it took me a year to convince people of it who actually did know something about the issues in question, so yeah. I think the issue may be in how you said it, then.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:44
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counterspin posted:Not on SA, in this thread talking about this incident. Also, how can any organization not view the revelation that one of their long time managers is a sexual predator as anything other than a disaster? Oh, I’ll give you that the situation was a disaster. That was like my least favorite month of the last five years. But... was our handling of it a disaster? Really?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:46
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Also a pretty big strawman, to go from "having a neutral arbitrator of some kind to deal with cases of serious accusations against forum staff so you aren't asking their friends to try and adjudicate it" to "all mod decisions appealed through third party arbitration." So, do you in fact know anybody? I'm not disagreeing with anything you said; I'm asking if you in fact know if any options that companies like RPGnet or game publishers could use.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:46
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Stephenls posted:Oh, I'll give you that the situation was a disaster. That was like my least favorite month of the last five years. Personally, I think you should have banned anyone who complained about it, and then removed all the rules in Tangency to distract everyone.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:47
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Stephenls posted:Oh, I’ll give you that the situation was a disaster. That was like my least favorite month of the last five years.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:47
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Comrade Gorbash posted:You're missing the point. The handling was adequate. But even if it had been exemplary, it would still be a cause for major review of policy. There was a major internal review of policy. Like, for a month there, all discussion among mods and admins was dominated by “How do we deal with this?” and “Are we dealing with this well?” and “Dis we deal with that well?” It was month long rolling discussion. I get that people mostly seem unhappy that we didn’t make a public statement at the end about how we’d handle things if it came up again? Also I’m guessing there’s concerns that this isn’t the first time an RPGnet user has felt wronged by a mod in a fashion similar to this, and that the lack of explicit policy has prevented other potential complaints from going public like this one did?
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Feb 2, 2018 01:56
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Stephenls posted:There was a major internal review of policy. Like, for a month there, all discussion among mods and admins was dominated by “How do we deal with this?” and “Are we dealing with this well?” and “Dis we deal with that well?” It was month long rolling discussion. If you aren't telling people something has changed and how, of course they are going to assume it hasn't. You don't have to provide transcripts but announcing new changes, especially ones that are supposed to be for the better is like community management 101. You seem to assume that users have access to the same information you do ignoring that most of that is only available behind closed doors.
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Feb 2, 2018 02:23
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The problems here are that this thing happened, and the response is "well we managed not to poop our pants, so next time we'll probably do everything the same and that'll be fine" whereas this time it frankly went as well as it possibly could for RPGnet. McFarland stepped down voluntarily, the accuser was available to talk to, and the community was lined up behind doing the correct thing, as far as I can see. Say next time, hypothetically, it's an admin and not a mod. And he disputes the accusations. And the community is divided over what to do, as are the mods. Do you just wait for Shannon to deal with it? What if Shannon's unavailable right then, who then? What do they do? How long to they take to do it? All of that should be written down, visibly, ahead of time for everyone to see. The second problem is that the person who did this was both a WW/Onyx Path lead developer and a mod, like other mods on the site, and the culture you've created is one in which the mods and admins make decisions in a secret closed-door deliberation and don't explain why they do what they do. That isn't what happened here, I think everyone who was involved was clear about what they did and why, after the fact, but it's a really weird culture and it's going to lead to people expecting the worst, and I really wonder what would've happened if Matt hadn't stepped down on his own. EDIT: You're also treating this as an "if it happens again" and not a "when." With a community this size, and the weird toxic behavior that rpg and wargame nerds sometimes tend toward, this is absolutely going to happen again. Cool Dad fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 02:24
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I've been debating whether or not to post here for a while, mostly because I have a tendency to get angry and dumb where Exalted/White Wolf are involved due to personal issues (partially due to bad RL incidents involving them). But one of the weirder RPG.net moments I've been through was during the Exalted 3e BP/XP arguments when Holden defended not having rules for XP-based chargen with "We have a policy not to give people bad rules just because they think they want them." and started a ridiculously long flame war involving them. Holden got off with a warning for the post (compared to some of the other stuff I've seen go down)... like most of a month later of all things. Holden's general high-end jerkery around that point basically got no response... until he was de-modded as soon as he went against Onyx Path explicitly for that. I'll admit when I posted there I tended to be afraid of mods even though I never got dinged. (Here I'm afraid of looking like an idiot, but that's more my own fault.)
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Feb 2, 2018 02:53
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