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Hmm yes those are indeed some charts  I have used my massive brain to compute the data and determine that for optimal accuracy/hit probability you should use a pistol at point blank.
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Feb 1, 2018 05:21
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FrangibleCover posted:
Heh.
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Feb 1, 2018 06:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZZTD3w_a5Q
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Feb 1, 2018 15:16
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Goon Squad should do the classic Arma 3 thing and end up with fire teams of people equipped with Bergens, RPGs and SAWs on every single person like some sort of powerlifting twat convention.
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Feb 1, 2018 16:42
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sum posted:it's hilarious that the game designers envisioned this as God's Perfect Tactical Simulation Board Game but a normal engagement between two squads is easily over in 22 in-game seconds In the last Phoenix Command thread, somebody made the observation that the thing about aggressively simulationist systems is that at some point they stop simulating reality and instead do a really good job of simulating whatever the game designer's biases or beliefs about reality are.
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Feb 1, 2018 20:10
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Two squads of ELITE OPERATORS. Obviously when they shoot at people those people die. If a mission needs to last several minutes they have to send in human waves.
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Feb 1, 2018 21:41
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Is there any chance of THUNDERDOME happening again to determine who gets to be an officer? Because it was hilarious last thread when two idiots would try to non-lethally fight with a chair and end up injured for a month thanks to the SUPER REALISTIC CALCULATIONS.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:12
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Quicksilver6 posted:Is there any chance of THUNDERDOME happening again to determine who gets to be an officer? Because it was hilarious last thread when two idiots would try to non-lethally fight with a chair and end up injured for a month thanks to the SUPER REALISTIC CALCULATIONS. Thunderdome killed the last thread, we shouldn't let it kill this one. Besides, apparently our leadership is appointed on a factual basis with strict means testing. Obviously this is less optimal than deciding it on the basis of how posh your Dad is but it's not a terrible system.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:22
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Understandable. Still, it would be funny to have shenanigans every once in a while on a limited scope.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:35
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FrangibleCover posted:Thunderdome killed the last thread, we shouldn't let it kill this one. Besides, apparently our leadership is appointed on a factual basis with strict means testing. Obviously this is less optimal than deciding it on the basis of how posh your Dad is but it's not a terrible system. Agreed with this. Save your rage for OPFORs. Also, how well would you say we did with this mission, LatwPIAT? 13 vs 4 might look good on a scorecard, but any media reporting on it would call it a debacle.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:43
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Nah, this is set in the past. The media there's much easier to control.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:45
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Gunz II Machine Guns FN MAG  vs. FN Minimi  vs. Izhmash (probably) PKM  Ergonomics Length: Minimi wins, for all the good it does. You might also be able to collapse the stock but I wouldn't fire it like that. Weight: Minimi wins again, although the PKM is considerably lighter than the MAG... AW (Ammunition weight): ...and unlike with the AKM and FNC the increased weight of the Soviet ammunition is less of a dealbreaker because you'll always have fewer belts of MG and they;ll be spread between more people. Ammunition: Minimi as twice as many rounds as the other two in a belt of similar weight. Another win. Reload speed: Draw Overall Ergonomics: The true LMG is lighter and handier than the GPMGs. Water remains wet. Accuracy SAB (Sustained Automatic Burst accuracy): A penalty to accuracy while firing multi-turn bursts. The FN weapons are much better at staying on target than the PKM as standard, although I don't really understand why they don't have separate values for Bipodded and Unbipodded. The MAG gets less accurate when you select the higher rate of fire. Accuracy (Snapshots): Basically tiered by weight, but the surprise is how accurate the MAG becomes at aim level 2. If you have to snapshoot, Minimi, but if you can take a single action the MAG is the best. Accuracy (Aimed fire): The Minimi reaches its maximum accuracy fastest but the PKM keeps up and then can take another level to finally allow us a positive accuracy modifier. The MAG remains inaccurate for longest but can reach the same accuracy level eventually. MA (Minimum Arc): The minimum number of hexes that an automatic burst from the weapon must cover at a given range. The MAG leads, the Minimi is a comfortable middle and the PKM trails, but the MAG with the high rate of fire is the worst set up. This should be fine at close ranges and I'm minded to start putting rough RoEs on the MAG that it should fire at High out to about 'X distance' and thence on Low to max range. BA (Ballistic Accuracy): Meh TOF (Time of Flight): Eh. Minimi wins en margin, small and fast beats large and powerful. Overall Accuracy: The PKM is a definite loser due to its powerful cartridge and light construction. The Minimi and MAG vie for competitiveness but IMO the MAG wins between its sick dropshot capability and the ability to lay accurate aimed fire once set up. Killyness ROF: Minimi fires nearly twice as many shots as PKM per phase/round/turn/rubber. The MAG is even better, it gets to choose which gun it wants to emulate. PEN: Penetration value, deals with how much cover, armour and person a bullet can go through. More is better, MAG has most, then PKM, then Minimi. This will become a familiar pattern. DC: Damage Class, how hard you're hitting what you penetrate. More is very better, MAG has most, then PKM, then Minimi. Honestly I doubt that the 8 instead of 7 at 20 hexes for the MAG over the PKM will be critical that often while the rounds perform similarly out to quite some range but there you go. KD: Knockdown. MAG is best and therefore can finally beat the M1911 in stupid internet arguments about pistols for military issue. A knockdown of 9 sounds really impressive actually, maybe it'll have some sort of stunning effect in itself even if the damage doesn't stun the enemy. Overall Killyness: MAG. Dead killy, high RoF if you want it. CQC Hahahaha. Hahahahahahah. Don't even shoot the bugger, let one of the riflemen do it. You have better things to do with an LMG than club people. Other stuff On the tactical level, FNC magazines fit into a Minimi if you need that little extra bit of ammo *now*. Still an edge case right now. Conclusion: I expected the PKM to come out of this analysis quite a lot better but the weight trade off just kills too much of the accuracy while not quite achieving the same handiness as the Minimi. If we could only keep one MG I'd consider the PKM but as is I think we should crack on with our Western weapons for now, at least until we find a tripod for the MAG and turn it into the SFMG monster it can be. Pistols Browning Hi-Power  vs. Literally nothing at all Conclusion: Literally nothing at all gets a convincing win until we end up with people who can't carry rifles or machine guns for whatever reason. I'd have perhaps considered the Hi-Power for a MAG gunner but between the fact that they really can't deal with any more weight than they have and the fact that the MAG can quickscope what's the point?
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Feb 2, 2018 00:59
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I mean, I didn't think being squad leader actually meant anything, but I'll be more proactive if that's what it requires.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:35
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sum posted:it's hilarious that the game designers envisioned this as God's Perfect Tactical Simulation Board Game but a normal engagement between two squads is easily over in 22 in-game seconds isn't that at least faintly realistic? like, I would expect a SWAT house-clearing operation to be "done" in less than a minute, and I think our expectation of how long an engagement is supposed to be might be colored by Hollywood.
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Feb 2, 2018 03:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:isn't that at least faintly realistic? like, I would expect a SWAT house-clearing operation to be "done" in less than a minute, and I think our expectation of how long an engagement is supposed to be might be colored by Hollywood. Firefights can last hours and usually don't have an 70% casualty rate. Soldiers (wisely) don't like to risk having their heads blown off and usually have to be coerced into doing anything besides lying face down (also, if you believe On Killing, there's a strong human instinctual resistance against killing others so a lot of gunfire is "symbolic"). Of course that would be a horribly tedious board game but it also sorta undermines the designers' claim that the game simulates combat at all accurately.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:isn't that at least faintly realistic? like, I would expect a SWAT house-clearing operation to be "done" in less than a minute, and I think our expectation of how long an engagement is supposed to be might be colored by Hollywood. There's a couple of things that take time that I haven't been modelling yet: planning what to do next, and overcoming your fear whenever bullets and explosions are near you. SWAT house-clearing operations are meticulously pre-planned or relying on well-practiced drills precisely in order to get around having to actually think and plan, and people who get shot in the face by SWAT or similar counter-terrorist groups are usually not in a position to lay down effective cover fire with machine guns in the first place. Also, an update is coming, but setting up for your next big administrative decision is taking longer than planned and I want to take a bit of a slower pace for a few days: running a 23-man simulation was quite exhaustive!
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Feb 2, 2018 05:01
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FrangibleCover posted:CQC ...but what if we added a bayonet?
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Feb 2, 2018 06:47
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sum posted:Firefights can last hours and usually don't have an 70% casualty rate. Soldiers (wisely) don't like to risk having their heads blown off and usually have to be coerced into doing anything besides lying face down (also, if you believe On Killing, there's a strong human instinctual resistance against killing others so a lot of gunfire is "symbolic"). Of course that would be a horribly tedious board game but it also sorta undermines the designers' claim that the game simulates combat at all accurately. On Killing is bullshit, though. Also, most firefights happen at longer ranges than 20 feet. Increase the range, introduce morale and then latwPIAT (what does your nickname mean anyways) will have hundreds of updates about exchanging bullets in vain!
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Feb 2, 2018 06:50
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JcDent posted:Transform the Goon Squad into Goon Heavy Machinegun Company! You totally missed the boat on making that the Heavy Machinegoon Company there.
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Feb 2, 2018 06:53
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JcDent posted:On Killing is bullshit, though. love annihilating tanks w/ Projector, Infantry, Anti-Tank.
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Feb 2, 2018 06:58
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There's a lot of scholarly debate over the "humans don't like to kill and will do so only reluctantly" thesis, which was advanced by (among others) SLA Marshall, who interviewed soldiers in WWII to build a ground-level foundation for research about combat. While he deserves a lot of credit for kickstarting the field, Marshall's methodology was seriously flawed; it turned out he only interviewed relatively few soldiers, so his dataset was skewed. On the contrary, there are lots of countervailing accounts of attacks being broken up by accurate, well-directed small arms fire, not necessarily the hammering of machine guns--the self-preservation instinct screaming at you to pull the drat trigger, at work. Furthermore, far from refusing to fire, a major problem among new soldiers was their lack of fire discipline. When they got spooked and thought they were under attack, inexperienced soldiers would often burn through all their ammo to ward off the perceived threat.
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Feb 2, 2018 07:02
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Well, we have some backup weapons now that we can as tactically necessary rotate in. Also I suppose we can sell the damaged AK for like.. Twenty bucks maybe if it's not worth it to fix it. Thanks for th eanalysis!
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Feb 2, 2018 07:48
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Damaged AK goes onto our HQ's (second hand trailer from Bavaria) wall as a trophy. Funding will be raised for a plaque commemorating the two dead goons.
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Feb 2, 2018 08:34
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JcDent posted:Damaged AK goes onto our HQ's (second hand trailer from Bavaria) wall as a trophy. Funding will be raised for a plaque commemorating the two dead goons. Think we could get the Stanley Cup? It's the Olympics, no one will notice it's missing and that thing gets mauled each year anyways..
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Feb 2, 2018 11:13
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This game looks insane. SO I'd like to sign up as Terra Storm.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:52
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 NEW EQUIPMENT A local journalist covered the aftermath of your combat. Some arms dealers have picked up on this and they're interested in selling you arms and equipment so they can say they're supplying the weapons that are defeating the terrorists in the Azores, that kind of thing. Müller has cut some losses from your spreadsheet, giving you 90 Budget Points to play with: Swiss Squad Package (81 Budget Points) Swiss Arms AG are offering a full squad package of SG 550s, scoped rifles, grenade launchers, and bayonets. Müller says Swiss Arms AG will cut the price by 10% if you pose with your new equipment and shake hands with a representative from Swiss Arms AG for a photoshoot. (Already included in price.) This package includes: 8x SG550:  2x ZF90:  2x GL5040:  HK69A1 (11 Budget Points)  Heckler & Koch have a bunch of grenade launchers they're willing to sell us. Each comes with 10 grenades. HK MP7A1 (5 Budget Points)  Maybe we're interested in some modern submachine guns? FN P90 (6 Budget Points)  We're already trading with FN and they say they have some P90s that were never picked up by the original buyer: do we want them? HS Produkt VHS-D2 (8 Budget Points)  The Croatian HS Produkt are trying to get some foreign contracts for their VHS-2 rifle. They're hoping that some photos of VHS-2s in combat in the Azores will boost sales, and are offering you some "promotional samples". 10x DM11 40x46 mm HE Grenades (4 Budget Points)  M1952 Armored Vest (2 Budget Points) Weight: 11 lbs PF, Vest: 0.9 PF, Vest + Inserts: 2.1 The M1952 Armored Vest provides comprises layered nylon and reduces all incoming projectiles by 0.9 PEN. It has aluminium insert plates along the torso that offer 2.1 PEN worth of protection. PASGT Vest (3 Budget Points) Weight: 9 lbs PF 2.5 This is the US PASGT from the 1980s. It has 13 layers of kevlar wrapped in ballistic nylon. Ranger Body Armor (11 Budget Points) Weight, Vest: 8 lbs PF: 10.7 This is the vest developed for the US Rangers when they discovered that the PASGT was insufficient for the kind of brutal assaults they were planning to run. It has 30 layers of the more advanced KM2 kevlar inside the ballistic nylon. Ranger Body Armour Frontal Plate (10 Budget Points) Weight: 9 lbs PF: 21.2 This is the ceramic aluminium-oxide plate that you can slip down the front of the Ranger Body Armor for extra protection against full-calibre bullets. PASGT Helmet (2 Budget Points) Weight: 3.6 lbs PF: 4.3 This is the helmet from the PASGT system. NOTE: If the PEN of an attack is less than or equal to 2×PF, the DC is downgraded to 1. OLD EQUIPMENT      
LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 02:26
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Hrm... We burn a lot of budget points if we go with the package, and it doesn’t look like the SG is enough of an upgrade to justify how much it will cost us. The Ranger body armor with an insert is great and will stop rifle rounds reliably at any range, but it’s expensive and heavy so we should only buy one or two max, and probably zero since we’ll argue over who gets it. I think the best way to max out our combat effectiveness with the purchase options is to go heavy into grenade launchers. SO: Arms Plan Cathode: Grenadier Edition 6x HK691 (66 points) 40x spare grenades (16 points) 1x P90 (6 points) TOTAL: 88 points This let’s us put grenade launchers on everything that’s not an LMG and gives us a P90 for any low strength goons
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Feb 3, 2018 04:07
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The HK69A1 is a separate weapon, not an underbarrel grenade launcher like the GL5040.
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Feb 3, 2018 04:42
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Goon squad going pure base of fire, heh? 
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Feb 3, 2018 04:44
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LatwPIAT posted:The HK69A1 is a separate weapon, not an underbarrel grenade launcher like the GL5040. drat! That changes things. Editing the plan now.
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Feb 3, 2018 05:13
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I think body armour for door openers is a good idea.
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Feb 3, 2018 05:17
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sebmojo posted:I think body armour for door openers is a good idea. Arms Plan Cathode: 2x HK691 (22 points) 20 spare grenades (8 points) 2x Ranger Body Armor with plate (42 points) 2x P90 (12 points) TOTAL: 84 points This let’s us outfit one heavy assault point man per team for breaching/grenadiering/hit tanking, or perhaps split the grenade launchers out if the weight is too much. The p90’s can either be used for weak goons or strong but overburdened goons wearing the body armor.
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Feb 3, 2018 05:23
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What is PF on body armor? Is that just straight-up subtracted from PEN during shot calculations? I kind of feel like we should at least provide helmets for everybody, if only for the roleplaying factor.
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Feb 3, 2018 05:44
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Davin Valkri posted:What is PF on body armor? Is that just straight-up subtracted from PEN during shot calculations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRDtRsGkuwI
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Feb 3, 2018 06:18
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Arms Plan Rossini
This gets us an impressive 12 additional main weapons, including dedicated marksman rifles, 2 underslung GLs, bayonets for days, and three semi-modern vests for squad leaders, door kickers, or the strong. More main weapons means more goons on the field, the flexible load out makes us less reliant on risky tactics, and it comes with a boss soundtrack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7O91GDWGPU
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Feb 3, 2018 06:20
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thatbastardken posted:Arms Plan Rossini LatwPIAT mentioned in the discord that the squad size is going to stay at or around 10. I'm kind of horrified to visualize what it would be like to run a half-platoon.
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Feb 3, 2018 06:31
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bibliosabreur posted:LatwPIAT mentioned in the discord that the squad size is going to stay at or around 10. I'm kind of horrified to visualize what it would be like to run a half-platoon. aww. probably sensible though. I still like the flexibility of the swiss package. That said, PASGT Helmets and Vests for 10 squadies is only 50 budget points, and seems like it would go a long way towards keeping people in the fight.
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Feb 3, 2018 06:44
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Okay, on the basis of absolutely nothing, I'm going to propose the following, called Plan Increase Wounds: 10x PASGT Helmets (2x10=20) 9x PASGT Vest (3x9=27) 1x Ranger Body Armor with Plate (21) 2x HK69A1 w/10 grenades apiece (22) Total: 90 Rationale: At least basic armor for the entire squad, plus one designated for heavy armor. 2 grenade launchers can be handy, but we are not going to burn through all 20 of them on one mission; remember that we have frag grenades as well.
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Feb 3, 2018 06:51
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Davin Valkri posted:Okay, on the basis of absolutely nothing, I'm going to propose the following, called Plan Increase Wounds: Second this one
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Feb 3, 2018 07:11
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 12:42 |
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The SG550 seems almost identical to the FNC we have now, except for the bipod and innately higher BA.(dunno if this matters though) The addition of the bipod and the lower ROF setting should make it better at sustained fire (I think) and overall the SG seems to me a better jack of all trades gun than the FNC or AKM. The SIG package also offers us two marksman rifles. There were some real issues in the first mission with accuracy, which the DMRs would be a good answer to. Wrt the grenade launchers, the standalone weighs about 2/3rds of a SG550 or FNC. If you care about weight(you should), anyone who carries it will also have to get an SMG. The SIG underslung offers a grenade launcher and full rifle for about the same weight as a HK69A1+P90, so IMO the underslung is the way to go. As far as body armour is concerned, I'd shy away from it. Again, you generally want to stay as light and mobile as possible. On the basis of this, I present the Swiss bank account proposal: Swiss Squad Package (81pts) 20 grenades(8pts)
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Feb 3, 2018 10:42
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