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And Tyler Too! posted:Yes casters are broken. That doesn't mean melee/archers are "obsolete," but they're certainly less appealing than casters if you're just trying to wipe out enemy groups effortlessly. I like having one melee meatshield and a high gymnastics archer to finish off near-dead enemies. I'd like to make the game last a bit longer and if that means I'm not going to progress as quickly because I didn't choose to make a spergy minmaxing all caster group then so be it. I like hitting stuff with swords and putting arrows in stuff. It's less efficient but the funhaver in me likes that. This always confuses me, this reaction of "you dumb minmaxer, maybe I don't want to have all casters!" Like, I'm not saying any of my issues are good things. Like, hey - I, TOO, DON'T WANT TO HAVE ALL SPELLCASTERS! I ALSO want all my characters to feel like they are always carrying their weight. When my front line fighter has the same health the wizard does, just about the same armor, and does less damage to on person then the wizard does to the entire group, then there's a problem! Like, holy poo poo, what in any of my posts have lead people to believe I like spellcasters being too strong? It sucks! Also, what spergy minmaxing? The only time you need that is for the non-spellcasters. Making a spellcaster is easy as poo poo. I want Intelligence, their Spellcasting skill, and Spellcraft. That's it. They don't have to gently caress around with everything on the tree like a warrior-type does. I need two skills and one stat. And hey, now I got all these OTHER stat and skill points, so I can put those into weapon skills and hardiness and resistance and tool use and etc, etc, etc.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:35
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ProfessorCirno posted:This always confuses me, this reaction of "you dumb minmaxer, maybe I don't want to have all casters!" Where in my post was any of my criticism directed towards you? Did you actually take my post as a personal attack? It wasn't. Calm the hell down. The point I was trying to make is that melee and archers are the furthest thing from obsolete. They just take a little more TLC to get the ball rolling in a series where an all-caster group can steamroll all the content save for the occasional doomguard. The minmaxing I was referring to was the idea that to most efficiently play the game, forego everything non-caster and save the world with zero effort. That's how minmaxing works, you build the strongest arsenal you can. "Minmaxing" melee is no different than building a caster except you can't clear a room with one button. Get hardiness, battle frenzy, and pile on some +hit%, hard work, that.
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Feb 2, 2018 05:03
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Yeah, sorry. I absolutely went too hard there. It's a topic that comes up a lot with cRPGs, given how they all end up linked to D&D in one way or another hahaha. But no, yeah, I was being lovely. Apologies. I guess my thing is that...yes, you can make a melee fighter in Avernum 2 and enjoy it totally. You could make a hybrid fighter/caster, too. Or a character focused entirely around throwing. But, at least for me, it always eats at me seeing how loving dogshit they are compared to the wizard or cleric even before you look at stuff like the Cloak spells or resistances and immunities. It actually does legit effect my enjoyment of the game. It's not min-maxing to actually literally watch your fighter do jack poo poo while the wizard and cleric clean house, over and over, every time. Maybe "obsolete" is the wrong word, but when all is said and done, there isn't much at all that a non-caster can do that a caster can't do better.
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Feb 2, 2018 05:57
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That the quartermaster at fort emergence doesn't give me the back-pay on my per diem is absolute horseshit. gently caress you Micah see if I explore the surface once I've formed the Union of Adventurers.
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Feb 2, 2018 06:12
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, sorry. I absolutely went too hard there. It's a topic that comes up a lot with cRPGs, given how they all end up linked to D&D in one way or another hahaha. But no, yeah, I was being lovely. Apologies. Honestly, that's definitely true late game, but early game to the very start of midgame, I feel like beefier melee dudes outdo the wizards enough on just murdering one big dude that it's useful to have someone. Once the wizards start getting into the last third of their books though that turns around pretty quickly.
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Feb 2, 2018 06:15
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Not sure if it's just me but everyone feels a lot squishier at the start this time. I'm only playing on hard but until I gained a few levels I had to get lucky and hope that the enemies wouldn't all target the same person because everyone would die in 3 hits.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:20
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Anyone here who didn't get a coupon for Avernum 3, yet wants to buy it on steam? I have a spare. http://steamcommunity.com/id/Xander77
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Feb 2, 2018 19:19
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So what parties are people rolling with? I think I'll go my usual for Avernum 2/3 Slith Speardude Slith Mage Human Sword-dude Nephil Archer with all the non-mage dudes having various amounts of Cleric magic.
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Feb 2, 2018 19:30
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Sliths in Avernum 3 are my favorite from a story perspective. These people on the surface who have probably never seen a slith or even heard of one are just cool with lizard-men roaming the countryside stabbing things with two-pronged spears.
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Feb 2, 2018 21:04
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i wish 2 handed swords were still in these games because they are extremely my aesthetic.
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Feb 2, 2018 21:58
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ProfessorCirno posted:I guess my thing is that...yes, you can make a melee fighter in Avernum 2 and enjoy it totally. You could make a hybrid fighter/caster, too. Or a character focused entirely around throwing. But, at least for me, it always eats at me seeing how loving dogshit they are compared to the wizard or cleric even before you look at stuff like the Cloak spells or resistances and immunities. It actually does legit effect my enjoyment of the game. It's not min-maxing to actually literally watch your fighter do jack poo poo while the wizard and cleric clean house, over and over, every time. Maybe "obsolete" is the wrong word, but when all is said and done, there isn't much at all that a non-caster can do that a caster can't do better. I think the problem here is with thinking that a min-maxer is doing something wrong. There's nothing wrong with wanting to maximize your effectiveness, and ideally the game should be designed so that you have many possible highly-effective routes. Lots of people, consciously or not, view videogames primarily as optimization problems -- get as strong as possible, using the available tools (equipment, monsters, quests, etc.). If you tell them "oh, just play suboptimally, you'll have more fun", they'll have a really hard time doing that. The example I like to give is a hypothetical RPG where, if you hang around the starting town and kill 1000 bunnies, the last one drops the best sword in the game. By any stretch of the imagination, actually doing that would a) be a horrible, tedious slog to get the sword, and then b) proceed to wreck the difficulty curve for most of the rest of the game. And yet there would be a substantial fraction of the gaming population that, if they knew that this was possible, would have trouble not doing it. Because they want to do the best they can! And if the game's going to reward them for doing stupid poo poo, then they're going to do stupid poo poo. So part of designing a good game is making sure that "optimal play" is still a fun and rich experience. And, to be frank, this set of reremakes hasn't done a great job on that front. Yes, you can make effective non-magical parties -- people have beaten Avernum 1 with no magic whatsoever! But pretty much no matter what your party is, it will be more effective if you add more magic to it. Optimal play tends to end up being kind of monotonous as a result. I think when I get around to playing the game, I'll try making an archer-priest, who puts all their points into DEX and Gymnastics rather than Spellcraft. The goal being to have a blink tank that has an OK missile-based offense, with good mental resistance (for those loving charm spells) and the ability to clear status effects and contribute some healing on the side.
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Feb 2, 2018 22:02
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The example I like to give is a hypothetical RPG where, if you hang around the starting town and kill 1000 bunnies, the last one drops the best sword in the game. By any stretch of the imagination, actually doing that would a) be a horrible, tedious slog to get the sword, and then b) proceed to wreck the difficulty curve for most of the rest of the game. And yet there would be a substantial fraction of the gaming population that, if they knew that this was possible, would have trouble not doing it. Because they want to do the best they can! And if the game's going to reward them for doing stupid poo poo, then they're going to do stupid poo poo. I mean, the issue here is that's not really min-maxing? At least not in the same way you're talking about elsewhere in the post. Like a ton of RPGs let you tediously grind to max level right outside of town and discourage it by making the exp required to level follow an exponential curve so it takes longer and longer to reach the next level. Yet it is very rare to find people who are like 'Ok, I spent 100 hours grinding my starter to level 100 in Pokemon, time to beat the rest of the game'. Because its far more time efficient and 'min-maxy' to play through the story and break the curve by pouring all your exp into one pot. A min-max approach to the quest you posit would be playing through the game with the goal of acquiring some map-wide AOE spell to kill bunnies efficiently until they unlocked the super-sword in a fraction of the time. Actually grinding it out is something players by and large almost never actually do if you make the numbers and time commitment big enough. Like, this isn't optimizing your time at all if you're grinding for longer than it would have taken you to do something normally! Minmaxing/optimizing is about finding the cracks where you can break the curve, not pounding your head against it forever. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 22:27
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
Pfff what a ridiculous example no one would ever make or play a game like that *presses X to dodge lightning 100 times in a row*
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Feb 2, 2018 23:35
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 Slith characters' tails are animated in combat.
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Feb 3, 2018 00:05
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I feel kinda bad for Jeff in the case of that review. An ultra sperg 'review' with a thumbs down ends up at the top of the review docket, it'll definitely affect the sales. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell, after working to remake a game he probably wasn't thrilled about remaking, and trying to do his best to please everyone, and then a very vocal minority gets the premiere review spot. And the review barely makes sense, honestly. I think he probably made a mistake by responding to the review, but I understand the frustration that made him do so.
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Feb 3, 2018 01:30
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Chinook posted:I feel kinda bad for Jeff in the case of that review. An ultra sperg 'review' with a thumbs down ends up at the top of the review docket, it'll definitely affect the sales. I'm probably going to buy the game now as a result of that bummer of a review even though I intended to wait for a sale (it helps to get the 20% coupon that stacks with the 10% launch discount, of course). I don't know if I'll get to it anytime soon but just as a show of support. I got most Spiderweb games off a cheap Humble bundle a few years ago so Jeff deserves a lot more of my money anyway. I was reading his blog post about the release, and this... Jeff Vogel posted:There is a lot of cool stuff in Avernum 3 that was quite innovative when it came out, and I can't remember any games doing those things back then. ...seems very, very different than all the other Avernum games. I've generally found the Geneforge series the more reactive of Spiderweb's games so this sounds unusual.
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Feb 3, 2018 16:22
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A3 is pretty different so far. It's a neat change of pace.
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Feb 3, 2018 16:32
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I really dislike not being able to right click and see how much hp someone has. I think I came across some beefed up goblins and while you used to be able to see that yes they have more hitpoints than the earlier mobs now there's no way of telling besides the vague feeling that they're taking longer to die
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Feb 3, 2018 16:57
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Glare Seethe posted:I was reading his blog post about the release, and this... The timed events are mostly pretty minor in terms of their actual gameplay effect (aside from that one potentially game-ending one, but the timing on that is so lenient that it's entirely possible to finish the game without ever knowing it exists), but they definitely add to the atmosphere. I think Jeff is overselling it a little bit by saying that no other games did what Exile 3 did at the time it came out, since off the top of my head Star Control 2 did a lot of the same stuff a few years earlier (albeit in a somewhat different genre), but at this point "who did it first" is less important than "does it work", and in general it works pretty well.
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Feb 3, 2018 22:20
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Can anyone give a rundown on how much tool use, magic lore, and luck I'll need this time around?
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Feb 4, 2018 00:48
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Arrhythmia posted:Can anyone give a rundown on how much tool use, magic lore, and luck I'll need this time around? If it's anything like the previous games, somewhere between 10 and 15 is the sweet spot for Tool Use and Mage Lore. Luck isn't something you need, it's just a convenient dumping ground for spare points.
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Feb 4, 2018 00:49
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Thuryl posted:The timed events are mostly pretty minor in terms of their actual gameplay effect (aside from that one potentially game-ending one, but the timing on that is so lenient that it's entirely possible to finish the game without ever knowing it exists), but they definitely add to the atmosphere. Yeah, while others were doing similar, it's worth noting that not only did Exile 3 work, but it did all that while being an indie game that had one programmer (I think?) working at home and no actual "budget." Exile 2 was my favorite of the series purely for nostalgia reasons, but Exile 3 was the one I thought was the actual "best," and a drat good end to the trilogy, so I'm pretty excited to grab it once financial issues start to clear up.
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Feb 4, 2018 00:54
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I'm considering instead of starting Avernum 3 working my way through the whole trilogy and was wondering if anyone had any good build suggestions
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Feb 4, 2018 01:03
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Berke Negri posted:I'm considering instead of starting Avernum 3 working my way through the whole trilogy and was wondering if anyone had any good build suggestions If you're playing on normal or casual, you can pretty much do whatever feels cool. On torment you'll probably want something like three mage spell casters and one guy to soak hits, with cleric spells on everyone. You can still do fine though, it'll just take longer and you'll use more items.
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Feb 4, 2018 01:18
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You probably shouldn't use javelins though.
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Feb 4, 2018 01:37
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Berke Negri posted:I'm considering instead of starting Avernum 3 working my way through the whole trilogy and was wondering if anyone had any good build suggestions http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/16388-avernum-escape-from-the-pit-strategy-central-need-help-look-here-first/ Most everything you'd need on Avernum 1 is right there. There's another stickied thread for Avernum 2. But, the basics: *) Hybrids aren't great. Pure fighter, pure mage, pure priest, pure archer, is how to do it. Because each skill and attribute point has a flat value, your last point is just as valuable as your first - meaning it's way more valuable to max a small number of skills and pump one damage attribute rather then spreading yourself out. Because of how hit bonuses work and how rare they are, you don't want to split your focus. *) Damage attribute + endurance is the way to go for attributes. Melee is strength, non-spell ranged is dexterity, spells use intelligence. Everyone wants endurance so they can live. Your damage attribute more importantly is your +to hit attribute. *) You cannot make a dex build that dodges everything. Armor matters. Hardiness is good for everyone. *) Dual swords > polearms > sword and board > bows > throwing. Dual wielding Spectral Falchion and Flaming Sword is the key to good end-game non-spell damage. *) Thrown weapons actually do more damage then bows, but are far more limited, especially the good throwing weapons. Of course, non-spell ranged attacks are just bad period, so... *) Not all skills are created equal. Outside of your initial basic weapon using skill, the lower down skills are actually typically better; Blademaster is better then Dual Wielding and Parry throws Riposte in the dumpster, for example; Quick Action is mediocre at best, Magical Efficiency not all that useful, etc. In other words, don't be in a hot hurry to rush up the skill tree. *) Most skill checks (like Tool Use) take the sum of your party's skill added up together, so you don't have to designate a single character for dealing with those skills. *) Trainer added skill points matter for unlocking future skills; something to keep in mind for getting spellcasters stuff from the martial tree. Likewise, trainer added skill points CAN push a skill past 10, so don't be in a hot hurry to hit up trainers, either; if it's a skill that's very valuable, it's absolutely worthwhile to knock it up to 10 using points, and then use a trainer to take it PAST ten. *) Skill points added from items count for battle maneuvers; as such, items that add weapon skill points are very valuable. *) Armor encumberance is as follows: mage spells cannot be cast if you have an end sum of -10% to hit across all your items. Note: this means bows that give +5% to hit literally let you wear heavier armor as a mage. Consequently, that +5% to hit isn't just for the bow, so give bows to everyone. *) Spell points are plentiful. Don't be afraid to just loving let loose on your spells; despite spamming AoE spells all day erry day, I found I rarely ran out of mana, and even then, that's what energy potions or runs back to town are for. *) The latter two of the three Cloak spells are very powerful. They are also horrible and help warp the game in very bad ways balance-wise. Use them. Hate them. *) Adrenaline Rush is the battle maneuver. *) Dabbling isn't terrible and is downright recommended for spellcasters, but it's not something you do for your offense. Spellcasters should dabble into weapon skills for Hardiness and Adrenaline Rush. Weapon users can dabble a bit into priest spells (1 for minor heal, 6 for unshackle mind are my general cut offs). *) Don't buy items. Spells and skill training is way, way more valuable, and there are substantially few items to buy that are better then stuff you'll find. There's probably more, but that's what I got off the top of my head. Also, of course, some of this (though not all) gets waaaay more lenient of you just play at Normal difficulty. Archers still suck and you still probably don't wanna hybrid, though.
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Feb 4, 2018 01:49
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ProfessorCirno posted:*) You cannot make a dex build that dodges everything. Armor matters. Hardiness is good for everyone. While hybrids won't be as good at either combat or spellcasting as a pure character (no surprises there), there are plenty of support spells that work equally well regardless of how high your INT is. Curing status afflictions (Unshackle Mind in particular) and buff spells are reliably useful. If nothing else, everyone should have 1 rank in priest spells to top off HP between fights. Archers are more useful than you'd think. Certainly, their damage output is lower than anyone else, but they can do that damage from anywhere (making combat in awkward terrain easier), it's physical (meaning it works equally well on everything), doesn't cost spellpoints, and the archer skill tree has a couple of options to get bonus AP for two attacks/round. Note that it is impossible to get more than 2 attacks/round without getting the Battle Frenzy buff -- the various statistical "you might use fewer AP than normal" abilities do not stack and they collectively can only happen once per round. My main advice would be to feel free to use items. Healing potions are a great way to keep your frontliners topped off while letting your spellcasters continue to deal damage, instead of having to spend their turns on being a healbot. Attack items fall off greatly in utility by the mid-game, so use them early to help you get through tough fights. Scrolls of Group Healing are amazing panic buttons for a surprisingly long time. (Note that all of the above applies for Hard difficulty)
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Feb 4, 2018 02:08
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A3 has a minimum 5% chance for any attack to hit if Randomizer is correct, so armor remains vital. Turtle up! Curse the land! Kill! 
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Feb 4, 2018 02:17
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Also: I think he changed how encumberance works in A3, since now there seems to just be a bunch of items that say "This will encumber your mage".
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Feb 4, 2018 02:19
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Man, my nephil archer is wrecking face in the early part of the game. Who knows how long this will keep up, but she's the MVP so far. I also note with gratitude and relief that PCs will no longer automatically move to bring targets into view if you try to attack something they can't see. No more having party members go on walkabout because the short path to their target was temporarily obstructed! (EDIT: or maybe I was imagining things.  )
TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 02:23
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Arrhythmia posted:Also: I think he changed how encumberance works in A3, since now there seems to just be a bunch of items that say "This will encumber your mage". Nah, that language is on all items with a hit chance penalty, you still get -10% before you can't cast. No idea if he fixed the (i assume?) bug where you can counteract this with accuracy bonuses to wear more armor.
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Feb 4, 2018 02:28
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I'm rocking an archer and loving it. I hadn't expected crossbows to go the the chopping block but I guess managing ammo wasn't too appealing. A good crossbow with some steel and blessed bolts could shred everything towards the endgame in Exile 3.
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Feb 4, 2018 03:01
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One thing about Avernum 3 I forgot about was how annoying finding the traveling artifact knowledge dudes was.
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Feb 4, 2018 16:40
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, while others were doing similar, it's worth noting that not only did Exile 3 work, but it did all that while being an indie game that had one programmer (I think?) working at home and no actual "budget." They released the source code for Blades of Exile a while back and it's the exact sort of "tape together and pray" C++ code you'd expect from one dude scrambling to make an ambitious project by himself. It's amazing the games run as well as they do.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:17
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I've got a steam 20% off coupon for A3 I don't need, if someone wants it PM me. edit: it's claimed 
Parts Kit fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Feb 5, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 18:14
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Okay, this has been bugging me, so someone spoil me please (early game Upper Avernum stuff): Where's the Vahnatai statuette? It's supposed to be in the wolf warren, but I can't find it anywhere. Do I need to get Move Mountains to get it?
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Feb 4, 2018 19:49
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take the NE ramp up from the wolf warren to the bandit lair that requires you to press a hidden switch, then in the bandit lair there's a blue chest and just below it is a tiny hidden green chest with the statue. I missed it at first as well
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Feb 4, 2018 19:57
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Mr Snips posted:take the NE ramp up from the wolf warren to the bandit lair that requires you to press a hidden switch, then in the bandit lair there's a blue chest and just below it is a tiny hidden green chest with the statue. I missed it at first as well Aw, dangit, that was way too well-hidden. I completely missed it on three separate passes. Thanks.
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Feb 5, 2018 02:39
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Eastern Caverns pacified, now to southern Avernum where I hear they have a bit of a problem with undead. BTW, gently caress Sliths.
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Feb 5, 2018 10:30
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I could use some help for a puzzle in the Giant Caves. It's a control panel with 7 unlabeled buttons arranged in a circle. I need to press them in a specific order so that all labels are visible. Going clockwise with 1 being 12 o clock, what order do I need to press the buttons to solve the puzzle?
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Feb 5, 2018 16:32
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