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PJOmega posted:To be fair, he's also not bad. Neither his writing or his personal history (afaik) are problematic. As an illustration, my not being a Nazi does not make my posts any less terrible. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 06:30
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M_Gargantua posted:Read The Emperors Soul, if you don't like it you're forever lost to the world and going to claim "Genre fiction is trash" to your deathbed. You'll exclusively read high brow literature and still be constantly disappointed, but at least smugly disappointed, at it. The joke's on you pal, I exclusively read high brow literature and enjoy every minute of it
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Feb 3, 2018 06:41
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A human heart posted:The joke's on you pal, I exclusively read high brow literature and enjoy every minute of it
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Feb 3, 2018 07:01
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Sanderson's problem is that he's doubled down on being a Mormon even though he's clearly struggling with the bigoted elements of the religion (his don't make Dumbledore gay post and then slight walk back that was still flacid as hell is just the smacking you over-the-head obvious incident of this. Though I do get a chuckle every time he tries to write someone being drunk. Like I know he doesn't drink, but has he never associated with people who are drunk?). Reading his books is like watching a person slowly realize the lovely elements of their belief structure and then trying to explain what they just learned to you over 1300 pages. Unfortunately, what he's learning isn't particularly groundbreaking. He's a serviceable writer who writes books that are usually twice as long as they need to be (which is part of why Emperor's Soul is his best work - and I do like that one, to be fair). I also really hate his need to make every series read like a D&D manual with dozens or hundreds of pages wasted explaining the rules of whatever magic system he's using. He really prides himself on it, and I guess his audience likes it, but it is the dullest loving thing when you're reading about the difference between a lashing, a double lashing, a sixth-elevenths lashing, and whatever the gently caress. Just say that they did some magic and spend the balance developing your characters instead. I mean, he's not writing infantile self-insert wankfests like Rothfuss does, but that's a low bar to clear. EDIT: It's also really weirds me out that no one does anything that isn't perfectly chaste because Mormon, but he's fine opening a book with people being tortured bloodily for thousands of years. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 07:39
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Sham bam bamina! posted:This is pure equivocation. A billion pages of imaginary rules do not stop being bad simply by virtue of not specifically being morally offensive. You're right, your posting is bad. Or at least this post of yours is. As I said, his writing is mediocre. It is white bread. It fills without nutrition. It is a perfect encapsulation of the mire that genre fiction has willingly entered to the tune of their audience's consumption. The audience which will gleefully consume the nth iteration of The Hero's Journey because they are chasing a nostalgia hit from when their life and by extension the world was simpler. It also is largely empty of the standard pitfalls of the genre, from what I've listened to. (Mistborn 1-3, first two books of his doorstopper with Magic Jedi and power armor that I can't remember the name of). There are few if any damsels in distress. There isn't weirdly transparent uncomfortable racial castes. Genders are treated as equal. Societies are merit based. It tackles social class issues and immobility. In these ways it is refreshing. As was stated earlier the greatest crime that art can commit is mediocrity. And I do agree with that. But, and this is a significant but, I do not consider most of our entertainment to be art though we are poorer for it. Not in the culture we are part of. We are a culture of consumption. Endless consumption. A day doesn't go by without it. It is twisted into our lives, largely as a vehicle of advertisement. Both of products and of lifestyles. Art challenges an audience. It evokes emotion. It evokes feeling. It's difficult to truly digest. You have to roll it around in your mind. Revisit it multiple times, from various viewpoints. You have to take time to think on it. And that is antithetical to our culture. The cult of the new. Always be producing so we can always be consuming. Even the artists in the entertainment industry have to face the fact that it is an industry. That their creative is always going to class with those who demand conversion rates, market share, price per million metrics and the bottom line of how much money will it make. There are many people who have written on this more eloquently and with greater depth than I care to in this moment. It's something that is way beyond the scope of this conversation or even this thread. Hell, maybe even this forum. But in the end, I will gladly put Sanderson above Rothfuss. A 14 year old absorbjng Sanderson is going to simply be along for a book that compresses and strips down a lot of genre fiction conventions. That same 14 year old consuming Rothfuss is going to have some really hosed ideas regarding what is normal. To say nothing about that 14 year old instead consuming Goodkind or Ringo.
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Feb 3, 2018 07:46
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Karnegal posted:. Good post overall, but I swear this is more of a genre thing. Most genre fiction protagonists are as chaste as a Hallmark holiday special. I get that they're predominantly written for teenage boys but it's really interesting.
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Feb 3, 2018 07:49
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PJOmega posted:To be fair, he's also not bad. Neither his writing or his personal history (afaik) are problematic. In an industry that is rife with hosed up authors writing dog whistle screeds on issues they know nothing on that alone garners value. No, that doesn't add value. All it does is avoid reducing it. "The author is not a Nazi" is not a bonus that adds points; it's a basic expectation and meeting it does not deduct them. Khizan fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 08:19
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Khizan posted:No, that doesn't add value. All it does is avoid reducing it. You and Sham Bam done sucking each other off in an attempt to prove who is the least original?
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Feb 3, 2018 08:27
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PJOmega posted:Good post overall, but I swear this is more of a genre thing. Most genre fiction protagonists are as chaste as a Hallmark holiday special. I get that they're predominantly written for teenage boys but it's really interesting. If the protagonist doesn't bone down it's not a book worth reading. Severian is the best genre fiction protagonist for this reason
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Feb 3, 2018 08:34
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PJOmega posted:You and Sham Bam done sucking each other off in an attempt to prove who is the least original?
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Feb 3, 2018 08:37
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PJOmega posted:Good post overall, but I swear this is more of a genre thing. Most genre fiction protagonists are as chaste as a Hallmark holiday special. I get that they're predominantly written for teenage boys but it's really interesting. It's not really a genre fiction thing. It's frequently a YA thing, but even then there's subtext in a lot of books if you're looking for it. Sanderson has gotten better at this, but his early books are really bizarre. The characters are practically asexual.
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Feb 3, 2018 09:54
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Down With People posted:If the protagonist doesn't bone down it's not a book worth reading. Severian is the best genre fiction protagonist for this reason I mean, that wasn't really my point. Admittedly, a lot of actual genre fiction has really cringe-worthy sex scenes, and that's not great either, but I also find it a little bit distressing that the genre is so confident with coming up with the most gruesome ways of torturing and killing people that it can, but then those same books will stand twenty feet back from anything involving characters having romantic relationships, offering maybe a chaste exchange of glances or a brief kiss if they're being daring. I mean, I don't need harlequin romance here. If you can't write a competent sex scene don't. But, you can just imply it and fade to black. The lack of realistic emotional relationships leaves us with a genre full of murder-hobos, which maybe explains some of the toxic elements of the fandom. I just call out Sanderson because he books are particularly egregious since his religious proclivities seem to make him totally uncomfortable writing about anything beyond a basic hug/kiss, but his imagination for violence seems stymied. I mean, look at mistborn's Koloss. They're a race of magical mutants with spikes driven through them whose bodies outgrow their skin causing it to rip and tear. That's a pretty messed up image, but Vin, the hardened girl who grew up on the streets has the sexual proclivities of a Disney princess.
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Feb 3, 2018 10:57
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Karnegal posted:I mean, that wasn't really my point. Admittedly, a lot of actual genre fiction has really cringe-worthy sex scenes, and that's not great either, but I also find it a little bit distressing that the genre is so confident with coming up with the most gruesome ways of torturing and killing people that it can, but then those same books will stand twenty feet back from anything involving characters having romantic relationships, offering maybe a chaste exchange of glances or a brief kiss if they're being daring. I mean, I don't need harlequin romance here. If you can't write a competent sex scene don't. But, you can just imply it and fade to black. The lack of realistic emotional relationships leaves us with a genre full of murder-hobos, which maybe explains some of the toxic elements of the fandom. I just call out Sanderson because he books are particularly egregious since his religious proclivities seem to make him totally uncomfortable writing about anything beyond a basic hug/kiss, but his imagination for violence seems stymied. I mean, look at mistborn's Koloss. They're a race of magical mutants with spikes driven through them whose bodies outgrow their skin causing it to rip and tear. That's a pretty messed up image, but Vin, the hardened girl who grew up on the streets has the sexual proclivities of a Disney princess. The Sanderson thread got mad at me once for pointing out that the only sex explicitly messaged in Mistborn is rape which as a result causes the book to be not just weirdly asexual, but openly sex-negative.
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Feb 3, 2018 11:14
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Atlas Hugged posted:The Sanderson thread got mad at me once for pointing out that the only sex explicitly messaged in Mistborn is rape which as a result causes the book to be not just weirdly asexual, but openly sex-negative. That's not true though Elend and Vin directly have sex after they get married, still prudish etc, but it happens and wasn't rape.
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Feb 3, 2018 11:40
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socialsecurity posted:That's not true though Elend and Vin directly have sex after they get married, still prudish etc, but it happens and wasn't rape. Even if you're right that means that the books have nothing positive to say on physical relationships for 95% of them.
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Feb 3, 2018 11:46
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Well if you're tired of cringe-worthy sex scenes but still want male power fantasy that's less juvenile than Patrick Rothfuss you can read the Witcher novels instead. Wait, does unicorn sex count as cringe-worthy?Atlas Hugged posted:Even if you're right that means that the books have nothing positive to say on physical relationships for 95% of them. The Witcher's message about sex: casual unprotected sex is great and risk-free as long as you're a wizard or genetically engineered mutant.
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Feb 3, 2018 11:54
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I think the point people are trying to make is that fantasy would improve by leaps and bounds if it included realistic human relationships. That doesn't necessarily mean explicit sex scenes or power fantasies or wish fulfillment. Apparently that's a very high bar for most authors.
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Feb 3, 2018 11:59
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Atlas Hugged posted:I think the point people are trying to make is that fantasy would improve by leaps and bounds if it included realistic human relationships. That doesn't necessarily mean explicit sex scenes or power fantasies or wish fulfillment. They do say write what you know.
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Feb 3, 2018 17:33
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Being volcel is the only way to attain the kind of power necessary to be a fantasy hero
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Feb 3, 2018 18:54
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Ccs posted:So they're apparently making movies out of this series right? So Rothfuss can just wait for Hollywood writers to make the third books as a TV show for him, then take the bits he likes and write that as the book and say it was his idea all along. Yes, he is pulling a GRRM. If we're lucky the movie will be so bad it makes Eragon look like Lord of the Rings. Tim Burns Effect posted:didnt she even write a 4th twilight book and then not release it because she got mad about it getting leaked? IIRC, she was going to write more books too but 50 Shades of Grey basically stole her thunder completely (50 Shades originally being Twilight fanfic is just icing on the cake). Benson Cunningham posted:Sam Raimi directed Legend of the Seeker, the TV show 'based' on the Sword of Truth series (fantasy bondage Randism) It gets credit for trying to emulate the Hercules and Xena camp but it was a bad show. Like, as bad as the late Hercules and Xena seasons where the well of ideas had long since run dry. ...I still watched the entire thing on Netflix.  TheGreatEvilKing posted:Real alternative ending: Brandon Sanderson is hired to finish the series. Nah, let Sanderson finish ASOIF, he could even make it partof the Cosmere to mess with everyone: Jon Snow is a Returned and Brandon the Builder was actually Susebron. Varys is actually Hoid. Euron is a Worldhopper and that's really why he has a bunch of insane poo poo from lands unknown. Arya becomes a Worldhopper, shows up in Stormlight Archives, and becomes a Skybreaker alongside Szeth as they murder the everloving poo poo out of everything that runs afoul of them. Evil Fluffy fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 19:14
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Atlas Hugged posted:The Sanderson thread got mad at me once for pointing out that the only sex explicitly messaged in Mistborn is rape which as a result causes the book to be not just weirdly asexual, but openly sex-negative. It should be pointed out that rape is given as much screentime as "normal" sex, namely zero. It's mostly implied and brought up as backstory, and it's not the seeming backstory of every (female) character like in Sword of Truth.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:42
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So you're saying that Rothfuss one upped Sanderson by having pages of sex ninjas and Rothfuss being an amazing sex haver with the sex fairy in spite of being a virgin?
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Feb 3, 2018 22:18
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Dude, that was Kvothe. Not Rothfuss. Kvothe was super duper good at sex with the sex goddess and then she loved him because he was so good at sex with her. But he was also strong, but not totally stronger than her, but still stronger than her because he was strong and good at sex.
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Feb 4, 2018 01:06
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Torrannor posted:It should be pointed out that rape is given as much screentime as "normal" sex, namely zero. It's mostly implied and brought up as backstory, and it's not the seeming backstory of every (female) character like in Sword of Truth. I disagree. Sex that isn't rape is implied once (and then only after marriage). Every other time it's rape brothels where the girls are murdered if they get pregnant. This is actually a major plot point as the girls that escape are the ones responsible for giving birth to the magic users who aren't in the nobility (another part of the bad guy's plan in book 1).
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Feb 4, 2018 01:21
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Solice Kirsk posted:Dude, that was Kvothe. Not Rothfuss. Kvothe was super duper good at sex with the sex goddess and then she loved him because he was so good at sex with her. But he was also strong, but not totally stronger than her, but still stronger than her because he was strong and good at sex. You are implying that there is a differenfe between Rothfuss and Kvothot when I posit that Kvothot is but Rothfuss's self insert
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Feb 4, 2018 01:53
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Solice Kirsk posted:Dude, that was Kvothe. Not Rothfuss. Kvothe was super duper good at sex with the sex goddess and then she loved him because he was so good at sex with her. But he was also strong, but not totally stronger than her, but still stronger than her because he was strong and good at sex. When Kvothe got back to not-Hogwarts and ran in to that Naming professor didn't the professor say that Kvothe likely Named Felurian during their initial conflict in the Fae when he called the wind against her? If so it means she was under his control to some degree which makes the entire section of the book even worse.
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Feb 4, 2018 02:38
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Benson Cunningham posted:It's pretty sad that Sanderson and Rothfuss are the two best known names in modern fantasy. Guy who writes endless stream of bad D&D adventures as novels and guy who wrote garbage but now doesn't write at all are perfect examples of the modern fantasy scene though.
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Feb 4, 2018 04:35
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Lightning Lord posted:Guy who writes endless stream of bad D&D adventures as novels and guy who wrote garbage but now doesn't write at all are perfect examples of the modern fantasy scene though. I legit think the next D&D adventure I wrote for my group is going to be better than Oathbringer or The Slow Regard. Not that the bar is very high.
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Feb 4, 2018 08:26
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Benson Cunningham posted:I legit think the next D&D adventure I wrote for my group is going to be better than Oathbringer or The Slow Regard. Not that the bar is very high. Put it to paper and send it to publishers.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:30
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Solice Kirsk posted:Put it to paper and send it to publishers.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:47
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Nakar posted:I always wonder how that works, as there are more than a few such books in the genre. Is it one of the participants just straight up ripping off their friends by repackaging the story they created together and taking all the credit for it as "author?" This seems like something that could make for a really interesting lawsuit. What your players don't sign contracts relinquishing legal control of their ideas as the price of playing in your campaign? I seriously wouldn't be surprised if that's a thing Rothfuss would do at this point in his career.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:35
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three meek maids a-ravish'd, a collaboration between ratfloat paddy and shandy hamson
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Feb 4, 2018 23:21
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D&D campaigns created Malazan. Campaigns can easily be used for plot of a crappy book. Writing something worth reading in narrative form is hard though.
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Feb 5, 2018 01:02
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Wild Cards started as an rpg group too
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Feb 5, 2018 09:47
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Atlas Hugged posted:Wild Cards started as an rpg group too And there was definitely no tone-deaf sex obsession in that series, no way. ( I say this as a fan who owns every goddamn Wild Cards thing ever printed. As guilty pleasures go it's wonderful fun, but man. )
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Feb 5, 2018 09:56
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Atlas Hugged posted:I disagree. Sex that isn't rape is implied once (and then only after marriage). Every other time it's rape brothels where the girls are murdered if they get pregnant. This is actually a major plot point as the girls that escape are the ones responsible for giving birth to the magic users who aren't in the nobility (another part of the bad guy's plan in book 1). Perhaps I wasn't clear. There's no on-screen rape in Mistborn. There's not even direct threats of on-screen rape against one of the characters, apart from technically being slaves in a society where slaves in the outlying villages are in danger of being raped. Compare that to ASOIAF.
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Feb 5, 2018 10:22
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Torrannor posted:Perhaps I wasn't clear. There's no on-screen rape in Mistborn. There's not even direct threats of on-screen rape against one of the characters, apart from technically being slaves in a society where slaves in the outlying villages are in danger of being raped. Compare that to ASOIAF. In the universe of Mistborn, as depicted by the text, it's rape brothels where the unfortunate peasant victims are either executed or their bastard children are hunted down by demonic inquisitors to be sacrificed in a horrific blood magic ritual. Or you get to sleep naked after you get married. It doesn't really matter that rape isn't used as a weapon or depicted on screen. I never set out to "prove" that Sanderson was as bad as other fantasy authors, just to point out that he has weird hangups and his handling of relationships is bizarre. If you go strictly by what he's put into his books, you might come away thinking he doesn't have a very healthy opinion of sex.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:25
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I can't imagine Brandon Sanderson ever feeling confident in the presence of a naked woman. Given that, he should be the perfect choice to finish Rothfuss's series.
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Feb 5, 2018 20:19
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Benson Cunningham posted:I can't imagine Brandon Sanderson ever feeling confident in the presence of a naked woman. The more I hear about his books, the more I feel like I'd really relate to them. Except for the rape.
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Feb 5, 2018 21:36
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Atlas Hugged posted:In the universe of Mistborn, as depicted by the text, it's rape brothels where the unfortunate peasant victims are either executed or their bastard children are hunted down by demonic inquisitors to be sacrificed in a horrific blood magic ritual. Or you get to sleep naked after you get married. But Mistborn is unusually bleak. Off the top of my head, I can't really recall any similar situations in the other books, or even Wax & Wayne era Mistborn. fake edit: Now that I think about it, Vivienne might have barely escaped being raped. And the whole arranged marriage thing with Susebron was weird, escpecially how he didn't know about sex at all Okay, maybe he does have an unhealthy opinion of sex. But to me, it doesn't really affect the quality of his books. Unlike Sword of Truth for example, where no book is complete without Kalan being under constant threat of rape. Or the amazingly horrible first time that she has sex with Richard. Or being raped by proxy through the magic connection to Nicci, etc.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:54
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