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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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Niric posted:Well, yeah, and I'm pretty sceptical, but I'd be legit interested in the source since I'm into 18th century literature way more than is healthy. Burns wasn't my topic and there's tons about him and his works I don't know, but unless there's a letter along the lines of "remember that time we shagged Davey?" reconstructing sexuality is going to be, at best, problematic and speculative. Curious to know where Coohoolin got it from though I read an article aaaages ago about homoerotic subtext in his poems and rumoured affairs with men. Couldn't tell you where I found it. He definitely liked women a whole lot as well in any case.
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Feb 1, 2018 23:50
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Coohoolin posted:I read an article aaaages ago about homoerotic subtext in his poems and rumoured affairs with men. Couldn't tell you where I found it. He definitely liked women a whole lot as well in any case. I'll be honest, that sounds flimsy as hell and more like a random blogger than a biographer. [edit: A random blogger like this, for example] Niric fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 00:13
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Niric posted:I'll be honest, that sounds flimsy as hell and more like a random blogger than a biographer. Yeah thinking back it's not super substantial. My partner insists she'd been taught something similar in school but we can't find any sources.
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Feb 2, 2018 17:09
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah thinking back it's not super substantial. My partner insists she'd been taught something similar in school but we can't find any sources. The classic Coohoolin 1) Post something as fact 2) Is challenged/told is wrong, 3) Cites 'sources he heard once/Uncle who works at Nintendo' 4) Never posts about it again.
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Feb 2, 2018 17:18
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Aramoro posted:The classic Coohoolin To be fair to Coohoolin, "[pre-20th century cultural figure] was definitely gay/bisexual" is something that gets chucked around a lot because it's easy to infer from scant evidence (especially any kind of love/erotic poetry or art), has an inherent kind of shock/surprise value that makes it repeatable and of interest to people, and, importantly, is basically impossible to disprove. It's not implausible that a sloppy teacher might throw it into a lesson as a way of getting some attention, and it's the kind of thing people repeat with good intentions (it suits progressive intentions about resisting heteronormativity, for instance). It's just worth keeping in mind, before bringing it into conversation, that without a decent source it's basically just slash fiction, so maybe treat it with the same credulity
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Feb 2, 2018 17:51
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Coohoolin posted:Burns was bi, afaik, but the point is that poem was written as a political stance in favour of women's rights, a polemical paean that the clergy pushing against women's issues would have found quite distasteful. Cool. Yet he also attended (and may have been a member  tho I'm not finding the source for this right now) a peculiar sort of 'gentleman's club' where young girls would dance naked and the chaps would compare penis size. Definitely no room for female oppression there.Somewhere I've got a scan of a guide to Edinburgh prostitutes/brothels that iirc belonged to a friend of his, with descriptions of the women at each establishment and what you might expect them to do and how much it would cost. Again it's unlikely that these places were bastions of freedom and equality. It's always wise before ascribing modern attitudes to historical people (especially ones with as large a hagiographic industry around them as Burns has) to try and get a really deep understanding of contemporary context and their place in it (and remember always that with the best will in the world the best understanding you get will still never be perfect, we hope for "Close, nice try"). EmptyVessel fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 20:55
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Do we know if Richard Leonard is planning something similar to this in a Scotland? https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/959449348441600001 Would he and Jeremy be able to recapture the spirit of Glastonbury or would they end up looking like a couple of sad old cunts in an empty field because the Tarquins and Jemimas have finally realised he’s pro Brexit? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 3, 2018 11:32
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EmptyVessel posted:Cool. Yet he also attended (and may have been a member The real question about Burns is which STD exactly gives one green rashes.
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Feb 3, 2018 14:38
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Pissflaps posted:Do we know if Richard Leonard is planning something similar to this in a Scotland? Scotland's still in the UK, Pissflaps. I think that means you can't post here.
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Feb 3, 2018 14:59
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Gonzo McFee posted:Scotland's still in the UK, Pissflaps. I think that means you can't post here. I think this is right. A lot of posting privileges are devolved, but the right to enter a thread was a reserved power, as I understand it.
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Feb 3, 2018 15:03
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mehall posted:I think this is right. Any power that isn’t specifically reserved is assumed to be devolved.
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Feb 3, 2018 15:11
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lol he's not even posting about Scottish politics, he's using scotpol as an excuse to have a go at corbyn because he can't in the ukmt i say we make a UDT (unilateral declaration of threadban)
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Feb 3, 2018 18:14
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Pissflaps posted:Do we know if Richard Leonard is planning something similar to this in a Scotland? I could have sworn this used to be a post about an independence poll. Did you edit it or am I going crazy?
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Feb 3, 2018 18:27
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Leggsy posted:I could have sworn this used to be a post about an independence poll. Did you edit it or am I going crazy? You’re not going crazy I edited it to something more topical. The original post was my about my continued surprise at the inability of the SNP to turn the Brexit referendum vote into support for independence.
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Feb 3, 2018 18:34
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Pissflaps posted:You’re not going crazy I edited it to something more topical. The original post was my about my continued surprise at the inability of the SNP to turn the Brexit referendum vote into support for independence. That post was a bit on the tedious side but at least it was an actual contribution to the subject of scottish politics, as opposed to the weird Corbyn-humiliation wank fantasy you replaced it with. Are you doing okay?
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Feb 4, 2018 01:43
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Pissflaps got deported to this thread. Really loving tempting to just close this thread so he can't post about his daily wank about Corbyn.
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Feb 4, 2018 02:38
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Extreme0 posted:Pissflaps got deported to this thread. Not much point having this thread until another referendum kicks off really. The little Holyrood talk wouldn't be out of place in UKMT. Not like we've chatted about the budget, or Sarwar being targeted with racist abuse during the Labour leadership contest, or Humza Yousef coming forward recently to reveal he's been getting death threats. Definitely does feel like ScotPol can be wrapped up.
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Feb 4, 2018 02:54
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forkboy84 posted:Not like we've chatted about the budget, or Sarwar being targeted with racist abuse during the Labour leadership contest, or Humza Yousef coming forward recently to reveal he's been getting death threats. Definitely does feel like ScotPol can be wrapped up. It does feel like there there was an initial hope that after the excitement of the referendum many worthwhile policy and political questions could be discussed in depth to the betterment of the national discourse but everyone (including myself, very much including myself) is rarely bothered to actually discuss it and instead allows scotpol to devolve into long periods of silence interrupted by occasional partisan bickering because that's easier and everyone already knows how to do it without really thinking. And on top of that so has the scotpol thread on forums dot something awful dot com. I guess commonweal are probably still publishing papers from time to time? hopefully somebody actually reads those
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Feb 4, 2018 13:07
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The main problem for me in scotpol just now is the SNP are fiddling away making small changes. Increasing income tax is good. Though it seems all policies go through the filter of 'how can we make Westminster sound bad' rather than 'this is good'. Then you have Labour who are just a shambles plagued by infighting on several levels. And the tories who seem to just be a vehicle for Ruth Davidson. I don't think it's just us not talking about what's actually happening in Scotland. No one is.
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Feb 4, 2018 13:22
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I think if Westminster Labour were still picking people like the Milibands as leader, then ScotPol might have value. In that scenario, the SNP's slow and careful fiddling with progressive policies would be notable. Instead, we have them going "how about we add an extra yax bracket and dont pasa on tax cuts the Tories are doing" sat next to Corbyn going "nationalise a bunch of induatries, buy 8000 houses, tax the corporations properly"
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Feb 4, 2018 13:41
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The education policy is a great example. Free university tuition has failed as a policy because they can't fund it enough. It had one stated aim which was to decrease inequality in university acceptance. It has in reality widened the gap. It still gets touted as a great policy because look you have to pay tuition fees in England! Ignoring the fact the policy is falling Scottish people in Scotland right now. The lack of attention and oversight of this kind of thing is really damming of Scottish politics.
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Feb 4, 2018 13:48
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I think it's disingenuous to say that free tuition is increasing inequality/achievement in Scotland compared to England. The issue is there's not enough funding for college as opposed to university, and that the kids from the deprived backgrounds can't afford to not be working. Getting rid of free tuition would still mean those kids couldn't go to university. The free tuition is a good policy in abstract. I think other policies to assist should maybe have come first, but if you accept the arguments and get rid of the policy, it would make it even harder to bring it back when the time was right.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:05
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mehall posted:I think it's disingenuous to say that free tuition is increasing inequality/achievement in Scotland compared to England. Yep. Hardcore universalism about tuition fees and healthcare is better than any nuanced fiddling. Someone's buying the sensible centrist line. So let's see, what's going on just now... Angela Haggerty tweeted a joke about Rangers FC and is being inundated with abuse, again; the government recently published their own Brexit impact assessments which, surprise surprise, paint a lovely picture; Davidson has told Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, and Michael Gove to not attend to Tory party conference in Aberdeen because they're "too toxic"; what the gently caress is going on at the SFA?; a new domestic abuse bill has been passed to expand the definition to include psychological abuse; Living Rent campaign has been winning fights with letting agencies.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:25
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forkboy84 posted:Not much point having this thread until another referendum kicks off really. The little Holyrood talk wouldn't be out of place in UKMT. I mainly have to agree. It pisses me off that we're only talking about closing the thread because we don't want Pissflaps to post in it, though.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:32
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Its not really disingenuous when the stats are there saying exactly that. Fewer people from poor backgrounds are going to university in Scotland as opposed to England. I theory its a good idea, but its just not working. But its such a good headline that they don't need to do anything about it and any questioning of it gets turned into 'why do you hate poor people, sound like a tory to me!' its not a healthy discourse.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:46
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Aramoro posted:Its not really disingenuous when the stats are there saying exactly that. Fewer people from poor backgrounds are going to university in Scotland as opposed to England. You're confusing correlation for causation.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:50
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There's not a single education campaigner you could talk to who would even remotely consider abandoning the free tuition model as a solution for improving class accessibility. They want increased bursaries and the return of programmes like the Centre for Lifelong Learning. Aberdeen university, for example, used to have access courses for people who didn't have the "conventional" option for moving from school to uni. Students with medical issues, mature students, students who hadn't gotten the grades they needed upon leaving, etc. It was a great program and it got scrapped recently because universities are run like businesses. You think allowing them to charge tuition fees is going to make them any more accessible at all?
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Feb 4, 2018 14:54
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Coohoolin posted:You think allowing them to charge tuition fees is going to make them any more accessible at all? That's not the argument I'm making. The argument I'm making is that the government s going to do nothing because they've got thier headline policy and theres no real opposition to make them do anything. Phone posting so I'm going to reply here rather than multipost. If you think theres another cause for the widening in the gap of university places awarded to people from poorer backgrounds then im genuinely curious to see it. That's the point of a debate, don't just say 'you're wrong' show me why. Although it doesn't really change my central point that Holyrood seem to be uninterested in doing anything about it.
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Feb 4, 2018 15:08
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I highlighted two potential causes in my first reply to you.
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Feb 4, 2018 15:12
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mehall posted:I highlighted two potential causes in my first reply to you. You're confusing opinion with evidence? I don't think you get to say I'm confusing correlation with causation and then just do exactly the same. Places in Scottish universities are cappef because of the tuition policy. Fewer and fewer of those places are going to poor students year on year. What do we get to resolve that? The attainment challenge? A really anemic solution. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 15:34
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Aramoro posted:You're confusing opinion with evidence? I don't think you get to say I'm confusing correlation with causation and then just do exactly the same. I recognise my potential other causes as being my opinion. Tell me how adding additional cost intrinsically helps poorer families send more kids to university. Tuition fees are bad in and of themselves for the working class, it's just that other work needs done by the government to minimise the issue. Are there separate statistics for the north of England vs. the rest of England?
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Feb 4, 2018 15:42
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mehall posted:I recognise my potential other causes as being my opinion. Yes again I'm not saying we should be charging tuition fees. What im saying is our overall education policy is not working, but Holyrood will do nothing about it whilst they can crow about free tuition. The capping of university places does seem to have had a negative effect. Kids from poorer backgrounds tend to have poorer results. So with the limited places you're cutting those people out of the university system. This is a problem in England as well, and theyre looking at skewing entry requirements to allow people with worse results in. Thats not an option for us because we simply have fewer places.
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Feb 4, 2018 15:50
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Aramoro posted:Kids from poorer backgrounds tend to have poorer results. So the issue isn't capped places, or issues with university, but instead the funding and curriculum of our childrens education. I know you agree with this, but it's important that you describe the issue in this manner and not "Scotland has free tuition and worse numbers of kids from poor backgrounds going to uni".
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Feb 4, 2018 16:01
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mehall posted:So the issue isn't capped places, or issues with university, but instead the funding and curriculum of our childrens education. I would disagree to some extent. Free tuition meant we capped university places. That rather directly meant that those from poorer backgrounds, who were getting the slightly poorer results, were excluded from going to university. But then they did nothing to close the attainment gap at high school. So in that sense the free tuition policy did directly cause the increase in the gap by being unsupported in its implementation. In reality that gap at high school is always going to be there as well. We need systems in place to allow those kids to get university places, the easy stop gap is simply fund more places.
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Feb 4, 2018 16:17
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Aramoro posted:Its not really disingenuous when the stats are there saying exactly that. Fewer people from poor backgrounds are going to university in Scotland as opposed to England. Yep, tuition is the only possible explanation. Let's campaign for setting tuition cost to one billion quid, that is sure to turn all the British lower class into Oxbridge graduates within the year.
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Feb 4, 2018 16:26
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Cat Mattress posted:Yep, tuition is the only possible explanation. Let's campaign for setting tuition cost to one billion quid, that is sure to turn all the British lower class into Oxbridge graduates within the year. Oh look another smug oval office who wants to score some points countering an argument I never made. This is why we should close scotpol because it populated by idiots. Its actually a perfect example of the toxic discourse is Scottish politics, question a policy of our glorious leaders? Not on our watch! Aramoro fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 16:28
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Aramoro posted:Oh look another smug oval office who wants to score some points countering an argument I never made. What's actually toxic is the tribalism at play- start with disliking something the SNP do because it's the SNP, and work backwards from there. Free tuition? Must be bad, it's an SNP policy after all. Really all you seem to be saying is free tuition is a bad policy, because it caps university places, but also don't get rid of it, because...?
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Feb 4, 2018 16:42
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Aramoro posted:Its actually a perfect example of the toxic discourse is Scottish politics, question a policy of our glorious leaders? Not on our watch! By assuming that the only reason people disagree with you on this issue is that they're blind followers of a political party that supports them you're kinda contributing to the partisan toxicity of scottish politics discourse yourself, here.
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Feb 4, 2018 16:53
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Coohoolin posted:What's actually toxic is the tribalism at play- start with disliking something the SNP do because it's the SNP, and work backwards from there. Free tuition? Must be bad, it's an SNP policy after all. Free tuition was a poor policy because it wasn't properly supported. Something can be good in isolation but still not work in practice which is what we're seeing here. Its not about being partisan really. The attainment gap in education is widening in comparison to England. That is something everyone should be concerned about. If we agree that sending more people to university is a good thing, although that's not a given, then we nees to see why we're failing and what we can do about it. The capped University places which came out of the tuition policy is one of the problems. But lets not throw the baby out here, how do we solve it? But like i said before, suggest that perhaps the policy had not worked as intended and you get a parade of wonks rolling out 'lets make tuition a billion pounds lol!'
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Feb 4, 2018 17:02
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Aramoro posted:Free tuition was a poor policy because it wasn't properly supported. Something can be good in isolation but still not work in practice which is what we're seeing here. You started by saying it was free tuition that was the problem. Presumably because of the SNP. I've suggested some solutions above- things I've heard a lot while hanging out with people who work for student unions full time and have made it their life's work to improve education in Scotland.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:03
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