UKMT Feb 18 - Goverment Clowns DTF - The Something Awful Forums

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Aramoro: Jun 1, 2012

TomViolence posted:

Same as everyone else all I can give Coohoolin is praise through gritted teeth but I'd never call the man a nazi. Least not until he says or does something nazi-ish.

I have to say I've never seen Coohoolin called a Nazi and didn't know he was Jewish. A pseudo-socialist Scottish Nationalist yes, but he's not a Nazi.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:49

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# ? May 31, 2024 09:34

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Namtab posted:

Small nation wants to break away from larger collective of nations that it does the most trade with based mostly on ethnonationalist arguments. proponents of the separation make a load of promises about how things will be so much better and how they can use it as an opportunity to take back control. Opponents of the separation talk about how much worse off the nation will be post separation and how they'll struggle post separation.

Which referendum am I talking about

This is from a few pages back but I wanted to reply anyway.

Obviously the relationship between Scotland and England is very different to that between the UK and the EU. The UK is not reliant on the EU for funding in the way Scotland is Westminster. Leaving the EU was bad because we fundamentally didn't have to in order to make the UK a better country, we just needed a better government. Compounding that, Leave was characterised by thinly veiled xenophobia and ethno-nationalism.

The Scottish indyref by contrast was way more positive and inclusive in tone. I don't particularly want to have the civic/ethnic nationalism debate again, but there certainly wasn't an unpleasant edge to Yes like there was to Leave. If anything, that particularly sour variety of British nationalism was endemic on the No side - I mean look at this poo poo, just after the referendum:

That's not to say you didn't get your occasional scary blood and soil Scottish nationalist. They do exist, and in larger numbers than you might expect. But they were a very minor part of the debate, whereas their British equivalents defined Leave. As an English person living in Glasgow, I never once felt threatened or marginalised by Yes supporters while I found the No lot to be incredibly aggressive and unpleasant much of the time (though certainly not all No voters).

In all honesty, many Yes voters weren't nationalists, but instead were lefties who saw the chance to break away from a UK that, at the time, looked like it was in for a thousand years of Tory rule. They saw the chance to build something genuinely new and better. I mean the Greens supported independence and it'll take a hell of an argument to convince me Patrick Harvie is some secret Hitler. Of course historically alliances between socialists and nationalists have tended to end with the former being hosed, and looking back it was easy to forget that in the excitement, which was probably a fair point of criticism. We'll never know.

But that leads me on to my final point - it's hard to describe to someone who wasn't there how vibrant Scottish politics became. I know to those in England it must have all seemed a little strange, and certainly the national news didn't cast Yes voters in a particularly sympathetic light, but I genuinely believe it reignited political engagement in such a huge way. This really stood out to me when I went back to England and met some old friends just before the referendum - compared to my friends in Scotland they were politically alienated, uninterested, and defeated. By contrast, up north people were really beginning to imagine the possibilities, and consider how to get there. The referendum was a catalyst that awakened broader political consciousness in a big way. It's hard to describe just how exciting it all was to someone who was watching from a distance. Fortunately, I think Corbyn has ignited some of that same passion across the UK, but at the time of the indyref Scotland really did feel a country apart in many respects.

In short, I understand the suspicion of nationalism. I have it too. But the Scottish referendum couldn't have been more different to the EU ref. Reducing the former to a regressive, parochial 'gently caress the English' tantrum is lazy and, more to the point, plain wrong.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:49

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

I've seen jokes about how as a Swissman he was hoarding Nazi gold but never outright Nazi comparisons.

That said hasn't he admitted to youthful indiscretions on behalf of the fash? Not that I hold peoples' renounced beliefs against.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:50

Necrothatcher: Mar 26, 2005

Aramoro posted:

I have to say I've never seen Coohoolin called a Nazi and didn't know he was Jewish. A pseudo-socialist Scottish Nationalist yes, but he's not a Nazi.

ookiimarukochan posted:

There are a bunch of white nationalist Ashkenazi jews in the USA - I'm assuming that's your background because you look pretty loving white to me. Stephen Miller, one of Trump's spokesmonsters, is the highest profile one right now. Hell, it's possible that Hitler was Jewish - and even if he wasn't there were certainly long-term rumours about him being Jewish spread while he was alive.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:51

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

ThomasPaine posted:

This is from a few pages back but I wanted to reply anyway.

Obviously the relationship between Scotland and England is very different to that between the UK and the EU. The UK is not reliant on the EU for funding in the way Scotland is Westminster. Leaving the EU was bad because we fundamentally didn't have to in order to make the UK a better country, we just needed a better government. Compounding that, Leave was characterised by thinly veiled xenophobia and ethno-nationalism.

The Scottish indyref by contrast was way more positive and inclusive in tone. I don't particularly want to have the civic/ethnic nationalism debate again, but there certainly wasn't an unpleasant edge to Yes like there was to Leave. If anything, that particularly sour variety of British nationalism was endemic on the No side - I mean look at this poo poo, just after the referendum:

That's not to say you didn't get your occasional scary blood and soil Scottish nationalist. They do exist, and in larger numbers than you might expect. But they were a very minor part of the debate, whereas their British equivalents defined Leave. As an English person living in Glasgow, I never once felt threatened or marginalised by Yes supporters while I found the No lot to be incredibly aggressive and unpleasant much of the time (though certainly not all No voters).

In all honesty, many Yes voters weren't nationalists, but instead were lefties who saw the chance to break away from a UK that, at the time, looked like it was in for a thousand years of Tory rule. They saw the chance to build something genuinely new and better. I mean the Greens supported independence and it'll take a hell of an argument to convince me Patrick Harvie is some secret Hitler. Of course historically alliances between socialists and nationalists have tended to end with the former being hosed, and looking back it was easy to forget that in the excitement, which was probably an fair point of criticism. We'll never know.

But that leads me on to my final point - it's hard to describe to someone who wasn't there how vibrant Scottish politics became. I know to those in England it must have all seemed a little strange, and certainly the national news didn't cast Yes voters in a particularly sympathetic light, but I genuinely believe it reignited political engagement in such a huge way. This really stood out to me when I went back to England and met some old friends just before the referendum - compared to my friends in Scotland they were politically alienated, uninterested, and defeated. By contrast, up north people were really beginning to imagine the possibilities, and consider how to get there. The referendum was a catalyst that awakened broader political consciousness in a big way. It's hard to describe just how exciting it all was to someone who was watching from a distance. Fortunately, I think Corbyn has ignited some of that same passion across the UK, but at the time of the indyref Scotland really did feel a country apart in many respects.

In short, I understand the suspicion of nationalism. I have it too. But the Scottish referendum couldn't have been more different to the EU ref. Reducing the former to a regressive, parochial 'gently caress the English' tantrum is lazy and, more to the point, plain wrong.

As an indy supporter I hope you never lead Scottish Labour as this take is perfect

Or poo poo wait maybe I do

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:51

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Tesseraction posted:

I've seen jokes about how as a Swissman he was hoarding Nazi gold but never outright Nazi comparisons.

That said hasn't he admitted to youthful indiscretions on behalf of the fash? Not that I hold peoples' renounced beliefs against.

Being a lovely edgy teenage liberal/centrist (not sure if I ever was a libertarian, thinking back on it, I remember rolling my eyes at a classmate who called herself that) is a far cry from the fash. I had some unpleasant views on Islam and bought into the whole cultural conflict narrative and western vs muslim values or whatever the gently caress.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:55

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Tesseraction posted:

Speaking of, has there been any indications of membership increase since Trade Unionist Guy took the reins, or is it still too soon to tell?

Richard Leonard has , it seems, failed to cause a similar phenomenon as yet to our Jezza. If the polls are to be believed, Scotlab has made only a modest improvement, and even then only in the regional lists. Saying that, he at least gives Scottish labour hope of reforming itself rather than further entrenching the broken politics that relegated it to relative irrelevenace in the first place.

Got to remember we're somewhat spoilt for choice when it comes to progressive parties in Scotland, with the greens, the SNP (who were, despite their faults, considered left of labour until relativelty recently) and any number of other socialist parties vying for our attention.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:56

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Coohoolin posted:

Being a lovely edgy teenage liberal/centrist (not sure if I ever was a libertarian, thinking back on it, I remember rolling my eyes at a classmate who called herself that) is a far cry from the fash. I had some unpleasant views on Islam and bought into the whole cultural conflict narrative and western vs muslim values or whatever the gently caress.

Fair. A lot of people had that. Switzerland in particular since it's basically a xenophobic hermit kingdom that also happens to be IRL Gringotts.

Yes I made a Harry Potter reference gently caress you all

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:56

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Richard Leonard means well but he's a bit incompetent (putting it generously) and can't stop scoring own goals. It's almost cringeworthy.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:57

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Tesseraction posted:

Yes I made a Harry Potter reference gently caress you all

You are literally loving Grindelwald.

Which is more than Dumbledore ever managed, thanks to J K making GBS threads out.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 12:58

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

forkboy84 posted:

No its not. Scottish Labour almost died because New Labour took its base for granted for years while chasing Tory votes. Combine that with a history of Scottish leaders post Donald Dewar who can fairly be described as either incompetent, non-entities or both and the SNP having two consecutive leaders with an air of competence who did a good job of triangulating between their rural base and picking off pissed off Labour voters in the central belt. Also add in that at Holyrood the Labour MSPs often appear the b-team.

If you don't think having spent the last four years bitterly calling your natural voter base secret Nazis has shot you in the foot then uh play on, maestro

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:00

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Kokoro Wish posted:

Or maybe... we could combine the two...

forkboy84 posted:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/960466871446360064

Ah, the Mogg supporter in a Nazi outfit, how shocking

Guys...

Guys it was a joke. I was kidding, guys...

GUYS!?

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:01

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

TomViolence posted:

You are literally loving Grindelwald.

Which is more than Dumbledore ever managed, thanks to J K making GBS threads out.

*googles to refresh memory* ah yes, the prison jerk

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:04

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Were the Gringotts staff horrifically racist JEW BANKUH stereotypes in the books or was that a film addition.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:05

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Tesseraction posted:

Were the Gringotts staff horrifically racist JEW BANKUHS in the books or was that a film addition.

They were goblins with pointy ears and hook noses which on reflection should have raised some flags before the Sturmer-esque film adaptation.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:06

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

i think the antisemitic tropes were a film addition that nonetheless got her OK cos she is trash

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:06

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Coohoolin posted:

Richard Leonard means well but he's a bit incompetent (putting it generously) and can't stop scoring own goals. It's almost cringeworthy.

Agreed. Leonard has basically fallen into the classically tedious ScotLab trap of just yelping SNP BAD without really offering much. It's been hugely disappointing the sheer lack of an alternative he's put forward so far. I'm hopeful he can grow into it but I'll not be shocked if he just ends up being as one track mind as Findlay.

Dunno how they've not worked out that they need to win back SNP voters and just yelling snp bad isn't working but here we are.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:06

Saith: Oct 10, 2010; Asahina...
Regular Penguins look just the same!

Tesseraction posted:

Were the Gringotts staff horrifically racist JEW BANKUHS in the books or was that a film addition.

Well they were big-nosed greedy goblins so you decide.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:07

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

TheRat posted:

No, I dont think spending hours and hours egging him on and having a right laugh about it is excused by anything to be honest.

The dude flat out said he wanted to racially cleanse my wife.

I assure you, I wasn't laughing.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:07

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Obliterati posted:

If you don't think having spent the last four years bitterly calling your natural voter base secret Nazis has shot you in the foot then uh play on, maestro

I don't think this has opened OP, I think you are being silly, hyperbolic and disingenuous.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:08

mehall: Aug 27, 2010

Tesseraction posted:

Speaking of, has there been any indications of membership increase since Trade Unionist Guy took the reins, or is it still too soon to tell?

Leonard hasn't really done much to dispel the notion that Scottish Labour are awful yet.

SLab saw what happened with Corbyn, and seem to instead of fighting and briefing against him constantly, seem to be de-fanging him a bit and making his policies thoroughly toothless.

Either that, or they're still working internally on what policies he wants to fight on, and they're not ready to unveil his leadership style just yet.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:09

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

feedmegin posted:

The dude flat out said he wanted to racially cleanse my wife.

I assure you, I wasn't laughing.

see if we'd actually had interlocutions like this in the debate brexit might never have happened

this is me being a full-on sincerity boi for once

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:09

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/960475273203539968

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:10

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

In the meantime Slab using the tremendously effective approach of comparing Sturgeon to Thatcher and attacking the SNP's tax raise as being Reaganomics.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:11

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Coohoolin posted:

They were goblins with pointy ears and hook noses which on reflection should have raised some flags before the Sturmer-esque film adaptation.

Saith posted:

Well they were big-nosed greedy goblins so you decide.

nah it's a mystery I'd better get the experts in *wheels in the Ken Livingstone-o-matic*

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:14

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Coohoolin posted:

In the meantime Slab using the tremendously effective approach of comparing Sturgeon to Thatcher and attacking the SNP's tax raise as being Reaganomics.

Have they distanced themselves from Brown's tax credits which were literally Reaganomics?

e: ^^^ Hope you're prepared for when it breaks and the room fills with smoke and infinite Hitlers, who may or may not have actually been Zionists you know.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:14

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Ken Livingstone as a kind of stoned Dobby would make for an entertaining sketch imo

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:14

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/960475273203539968

captive bolt gun
to the temple
just do me right here pls

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:15

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Coohoolin posted:

Being a lovely edgy teenage liberal/centrist (not sure if I ever was a libertarian, thinking back on it, I remember rolling my eyes at a classmate who called herself that) is a far cry from the fash. I had some unpleasant views on Islam and bought into the whole cultural conflict narrative and western vs muslim values or whatever the gently caress.

Fair enough, but ten years on most of us have stopped jumping in with both feet before examining the opinion. You haven't. You signed up for Scottish nationalism because it looked like an easy way to be popular and because you liked the culture enough to appropriate it. But as soon as the referendum looked lost you were talking about moving to Ireland and finding a new cause - the Cause, in fact - and only didn't because more sensible posters suggested that moving to Dublin and saying things like "If you think about it, the IRA won" was an excellent start to a new hobby of swimming in the Liffey with a baseball bat shoved up your arse.

In short: you annoy people because you are a political weathervane (which we suspect points due Pussy) who holds forth from a position of profound ignorance about a socialism to which his commitment is onion skin thin, and as such you are actively damaging to any cause you claim to support.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:15

learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

Telegraph website currently has �2018 Mercedes S-class review: the best car in the world just got better� next to
'Why did my credit score plummet when I've got �1m in cash?'

Let�s not lose sight of who the real enemies are and fight amongst ourselves.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:16

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

So I've seen French papers talk about this and I'm curious to see your reactions: A new political party inspired by Emmanuel Macron's En Marche movement and supported by some of his French MPs is being launched in the UK. Its aim is to reverse Brexit.

quote:

French MP Am�lie de Montchalin, a member of Macron's La R�publique En Marche party, is one of those that has been helping Renew.

"One year ago France was like the UK and the US, looking for hope because it was feeling in despair. I think today in Britain you can look at the future with hope and I think Renew is a movement you can embrace," said Montchalin in a video.

"Four months ago I was an economist working for a financial company in Paris, now I am a member of the French parliament. If this happened in France it can happen in Britain too," said MP de Monchalin.

Emphasis mine. Inspiring, isn't it?

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:18

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/960486144818450432

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:19

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Jedit posted:

Fair enough, but ten years on most of us have stopped jumping in with both feet before examining the opinion. You haven't. You signed up for Scottish nationalism because it looked like an easy way to be popular and because you liked the culture enough to appropriate it. But as soon as the referendum looked lost you were talking about moving to Ireland and finding a new cause - the Cause, in fact - and only didn't because more sensible posters suggested that moving to Dublin and saying things like "If you think about it, the IRA won" was an excellent start to a new hobby of swimming in the Liffey with a baseball bat shoved up your arse.

In short: you annoy people because you are a political weathervane (which we suspect points due Pussy) who holds forth from a position of profound ignorance about a socialism to which his commitment is onion skin thin, and as such you are actively damaging to any cause you claim to support.

I feel like I made a joke once about being outraged and moving to Ireland where the REAL celts are which a lot of people took very seriously.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:20

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/960486144818450432

edit: don't treat elected officials like livestock, let them do that to you

TomViolence fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Feb 5, 2018

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:20

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Kassad posted:

So I've seen French papers talk about this and I'm curious to see your reactions: A new political party inspired by Emmanuel Macron's En Marche movement and supported by some of his French MPs is being launched in the UK. Its aim is to reverse Brexit.

Emphasis mine. Inspiring, isn't it?

We already have a centrist party that aimed to stop Brexit. They had 8 MPs at the start of 2017 and had 10 after the election. People want centrism as much as they want a poo poo sandwich and Macron only did well because France's left and right split amongst themselves.

# ? Feb 5, 2018 13:22