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Ardennes posted:Btw, I don't know how you get I saying Poland was especially bad. I personally don't think Polish was that much of a standout considering many of its neighbors, but the law in particular is cutting across the board. The law is taking a hard line position on something is just indefensible from a historical perspective since it doesn't have any nuance to it, because lets admit things did happen that should be remembered. Should it be to anywhere on the same scale as what the Nazis did? Perhaps not, but it should be in the history books. From my understanding (and perhaps I'm wrong on this), the entire issue here is that there is nuance to this law. The law in question makes it illegal to accuse the Polish State/Nation as a whole of being complicit in the Holocaust, not anyone Polish across the board. If I'm reading it correctly, it'll still be ok to accuse an individual of aiding the Nazis, just not the entire nation. quote:"Should it be to anywhere on the same scale as what the Nazis did? Perhaps not, but it should be in the history books." The Israeli War Crimes Commission estimates the number that collaborated with Nazis to be <0.1%. This is why the Poles are so adamant about this: they're worried that over time they'll be equated with the Nazis, more-so than others that had less than stellar pasts.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:35
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Residency Evil posted:From my understanding (and perhaps I'm wrong on this), the entire issue here is that there is nuance to this law. The law in question makes it illegal to accuse the Polish State/Nation as a whole of being complicit in the Holocaust, not anyone Polish across the board. If I'm reading it correctly, it'll still be ok to accuse an individual of aiding the Nazis, just not the entire nation. It seems something like that is so broad it could effectively mean anything, basically like "insulting Turkishness." If you point to a particular event or aspects that involves more than a few individuals, what happens? Like I said what about Jan Gross and Neighbors?
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Feb 4, 2018 23:52
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Ardennes posted:It seems something like that is so broad it could effectively mean anything, basically like "insulting Turkishness." If you point to a particular event or aspects that involves more than a few individuals, what happens? Like I said what about Jan Gross and Neighbors? I don't think anyone knows, as the law hasn't actually been implemented.
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Feb 5, 2018 00:07
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I don't think I ever encountered the phrase "Polish death camps" before reading about this law.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:14
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Doctor Malaver posted:I don't think I ever encountered the phrase "Polish death camps" before reading about this law. It seems to be more of a mass media thing to me, rather than a matter of, say, a history curriculum.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:22
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On the one hand I understand the desire to correct the record about Polish government involvement in WWII which was never collaborationist and didn't murder any Jews personally or encourage the murder of Jews, but on the other hand this is an attempt to cement a version of history in which we as a nation and a people have a completely clear conscience regarding our treatment of Jews. There are still people who attempt to dissemble or at least downplay events like the Jedwabne massacre described in Gross' book Neighbors or the Kielce pogrom with some stating flat out that they're Jewish lies and that Poland has no complicity in the destruction of the Jews and that claims to the contrary are just attempts by the Jews to wring more money out of the Polish state. Antisemitism is second nature to nearly all non-cosmopolitan Poles and a good number of cosmopolitan ones as well so its hard to take the government's claims that this is not meant to stifle discussion around Polish crimes against the Jewish people at face value. From my perspective it absolutely is. Our people are very invested (fed on propaganda from the teat) in Poland being the victim and only the victim in WWII and the people only having done good, courageous and heroic things ever. In the national consciousness we are the eternal, heroic victim, betrayed by everyone, bravely fighting for God and Nation against evil hordes from all sides. There is similar outrage/open hostility whenever you mention Polish war crimes/crimes against humanity against any other people (i.e. the Ukrainians in the period following WWI) so its not limited to just the Jews, but I have to think its extra sweet for a lot of anti-Semites to be sticking it to the (((globalists))) which is why PiS is doing this needless and frankly unenforceable law, a big juicy bone for their nationalist base.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:23
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Doctor Malaver posted:I don't think I ever encountered the phrase "Polish death camps" before reading about this law. You did, but probably didn't notice, because it isn't a big deal and an obvious shorthand. Up until now, the issue wasn't really something that general populace really cared about and the dogged insistence on correcting this by the governments might have even seemed a bit silly, but ultimately very understandable - it's kind of what the diplomats are supposed to do. The core fear about this misrepresentation is less about some German conspiracy to offload the baggage of holocaust to Poles and more about the misconception trickling down to dummies which don't care/know anything about the topic. Like, a fitting anecdote I hazily remember as the last time this topic cropped up in my memory was some African country publishing a history schoolbook years ago that barely touched the topic of holocaust at all, while using the dreaded phrase in the sole paragraph about it. So, you know, while not being a super important issue, you can see how that could make folks uncomfortable. Having said that, A Pale Horse is very correct about people here being incredibly defensive about facing any past genocide-ish crimes. It makes any sort of domestic discourse about these things a dumb shitshow about Slavic Turbohitlers vs. Impeccable Hussar Paladins that immediately escalates into utter pointlessness.
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Feb 5, 2018 11:49
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https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-prominent-activist-found-dead-update/29016514.html Funny how opposition activists seem to regularly be victims of murder-robberies.
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Feb 6, 2018 08:15
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A study on Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel has been published. http://www.finestlink.fi/en/2018/02/07/final-report-published/ I am excited.
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Feb 7, 2018 14:48
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That is the finest link I've ever seen.
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Feb 7, 2018 23:09
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It looks like it could be potentially cool and good? What is it doing in the Eastern Europe thread?
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Feb 7, 2018 23:37
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Of the places to build a 100 km undersea tunnel... this one seems to have relatively little population to warrant such a project. Is there that much traffic between Helsinki and Tallinn?
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Feb 8, 2018 00:15
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steinrokkan posted:Of the places to build a 100 km undersea tunnel... this one seems to have relatively little population to warrant such a project. Is there that much traffic between Helsinki and Tallinn? I'm not really sure, but the current ship/ferry passenger numbers between Sweden, Finland and Estonia are surprisingly large:  Or maybe the passenger numbers everywhere else are just really small, I don't know.  Image source: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Maritime_ports_freight_and_passenger_statistics
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Feb 8, 2018 00:47
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steinrokkan posted:Of the places to build a 100 km undersea tunnel... this one seems to have relatively little population to warrant such a project. Is there that much traffic between Helsinki and Tallinn? You're thinking of the wrong aspect - this provides a convenient land transport link from Finland to the Baltics and the east of Europe in general without having to go through Russia. Which will be especially useful as it'll have the rail be built standard gauge for easier access from the main European rail network. This also will provide a better land based link from the west of Europe to Finland, rather than needing to go all the way up Norway or Sweden to avoid ferries, or having to go east into Russia. So it's not "how many people want to go Tallinn to Helsinki" but "how many people and how much goods do we want to go from most of Europe to all of Finland".
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Feb 8, 2018 01:18
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Happy "Fat Thursday" Goons! May you devour many Pączki!
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Feb 8, 2018 08:53
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Pączki are disgusting trash. But I'll still binge on them today.
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Feb 8, 2018 11:24
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Lichtenstein posted:Pączki are disgusting trash. why are we friends again
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Feb 8, 2018 12:49
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jaete posted:I'm not really sure, but the current ship/ferry passenger numbers between Sweden, Finland and Estonia are surprisingly large: https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/118_million_helsinki_harbour_europes_busiest_passenger_port_in_2017/10026733 quote:The overwhelming majority of passengers in Helsinki made their way to Tallinn, Estonia. Some nine million passengers travelled to Tallinn while 2.3 million people sailed to Stockholm, Sweden. I had no idea it was this high. Finland, it looks like we are meant to be together 
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Feb 8, 2018 13:21
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This link also gives RailBaltica more meaning. And I really freaking want high speed rail station in Kaunas for cheapish and fast vacationing.
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Feb 8, 2018 14:01
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Lichtenstein posted:Pączki are disgusting trash. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
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Feb 8, 2018 14:08
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It also looks like Norway and Finland are looking at connecting port of Kirkenes with Rovaniemi to carry container trade from China. https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/arctic/2018/02/barents-town-envisions-arctic-hub-link-china It would be cool if they pulled it off. More power to the tunnel and RB. Steal some shipping off the port of Rotterdam.
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Feb 8, 2018 15:09
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Man, Kirkenes is really far north. Linking it to Helsinki and Rail Baltic probably wouldn't be cheap. And of course, the local populations aren't happy.
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Feb 8, 2018 16:28
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alex314 posted:Happy "Fat Thursday" Goons! May you devour many Pączki! What's this Pączki nonsense, that's clearly a pončiks
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Feb 8, 2018 17:53
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Arzachel posted:What's this Pączki nonsense, that's clearly a pončiks Gesundheit.
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Feb 8, 2018 18:14
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It's a donut.
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Feb 8, 2018 18:32
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Keep talking, I'll be here, putting you all on my short list
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Feb 8, 2018 20:01
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I never liked the Pączki fillings.
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Feb 8, 2018 20:03
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It's jam.
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Feb 8, 2018 21:03
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steinrokkan posted:It's jam. So a donut?
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Feb 8, 2018 21:55
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adhuin posted:So a donut? They do have a distinct taste.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:08
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European donut, yeah. FWIW I actually enjoyed them quite a bit when I was staying in Warsaw - Czech donuts are a lot blander and drier.
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Feb 9, 2018 09:50
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steinrokkan posted:It's jam. Traditionally its rose hip jam which isn't very popular anywhere else that I'm aware of. Personally I love it though.
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Feb 9, 2018 11:54
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A Pale Horse posted:Traditionally its rose hip jam which isn't very popular anywhere else that I'm aware of. Personally I love it though. They used to use that as the filling here too and at some point everyone switched to generic berry, raspberry etc. loving criminal.
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Feb 9, 2018 15:24
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I got an ad today from Poland, just to Streisand Effect the Holocaust legislation further: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrkQ20SjHoU
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Feb 9, 2018 16:40
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donuts filled with rosehip jam are practically a staple food
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Feb 9, 2018 18:08
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Russian nuclear scientists arrested for 'Bitcoin mining plot' http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43003740 quote:Russian security officers have arrested several scientists working at a top-secret Russian nuclear warhead facility for allegedly mining crypto-currencies.
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Feb 9, 2018 20:42
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https://twitter.com/TwitterMoments/status/962672412478394369
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Feb 11, 2018 19:39
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SaltyJesus posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-42937889 Macedonians are passing as Greeks now??? smdh
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Feb 11, 2018 20:57
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There are now two теремок restaurants in NYC. It is pretty hilarious because they advertise as health food in the US. Yelp reviews indicate they are attracting the correct clientele, however. from yelp: quote:“Just wish they came with sour cream, luckily I've had my own each time I ordered.” 4/5
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Feb 11, 2018 21:50
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Nenonen posted:Macedonians are passing as Greeks now??? smdh
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Feb 11, 2018 23:59
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