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PT6A posted:It depends how you define 'loser' too. Is it a term that carries a moral judgement, or just an observation of the facts of someone's current life situation? I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone who says that says it in a derisive way that is intended to imply moral failing. No one ever calls people with, say, cancer "losers" even if it destroys them financially or whatever.
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Feb 8, 2018 19:00
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Ytlaya posted:I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone who says that says it in a derisive way that is intended to imply moral failing. No one ever calls people with, say, cancer "losers" even if it destroys them financially or whatever. I bet Trump would.
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Feb 8, 2018 19:49
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Eventually, everyone's a loser. Makes u think
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Feb 8, 2018 19:59
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this derail about trump is stupid, maybe instead of that we could look at how the FDA is getting more negatively vocal about kratom, something that could actually help ppl but isnt particularly profitable
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Feb 8, 2018 21:51
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They are deliberately inflating the kratom death statistics for obvious reasons. This might be another cannabis case where the most dangerous thing about the drug is government repression.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:07
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sea of losers posted:this derail about trump is stupid, maybe instead of that we could look at how the FDA is getting more negatively vocal about kratom, something that could actually help ppl but isnt particularly profitable Why do you think a Pfizer or a Merck couldn't make kratom very profitable?
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Feb 8, 2018 23:02
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fishmech posted:Why do you think a Pfizer or a Merck couldn't make kratom very profitable? Fishmeh is making sense; close the forum
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Feb 8, 2018 23:45
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Mozi posted:His brother basically drank himself to death I think. Your are. Fred Trump Jr. drank himself to death, which is why Donald ostensibly is dry (and I tend to believe actually is so). In case you're worried that that humanized that pile of garbage too much, just remember that after his brother died Don conspired to steal his children's inheritance.
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Feb 9, 2018 00:50
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sea of losers posted:this derail about trump is stupid, maybe instead of that we could look at how the FDA is getting more negatively vocal about kratom, something that could actually help ppl but isnt particularly profitable My feeling about kratom is that it's probably best for it to be legal (if for harm reduction reasons if nothing else - better for people to take kratom than pretty much any other opioid), but people need to be better informed about exactly what it is. It is considerably less dangerous than other opioids by virtue of having an effective cap to the amount you can take (without it just causing unpleasant symptoms like nausea), so I don't really know how someone would overdose on the raw leaf, but it is still an opioid and is still addictive. It can be a useful tool to taper off of stronger opioids, but many people are under the wrong assumption that it isn't an opioid itself, and they end up taking it and thinking "this is a miracle drug!" because it helps with their withdrawals (and ultimately end up switching one addiction with another).
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Feb 9, 2018 00:58
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If they'd just let every doctor cut bupe scripts it wouldn't matter but no we are a nation of retards
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Feb 9, 2018 01:18
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shame on an IGA posted:If they'd just let every doctor cut bupe scripts it wouldn't matter but no we are a nation of retards Or just for any opiate that someone's already addicted to. Is there any reason why heroin addicts are better off being switched to some drug they don't like, rather than a clean supply of heroin they can afford and dose properly? The main problems I see with the opiate epidemic is people overdosing, the crime involved with distribution, and people committing crimes to fund their habits. I couldn't give two fucks if someone gets high safely.
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Feb 9, 2018 01:34
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PT6A posted:I couldn't give two fucks if someone gets high safely. raa raa my money going to pay for junkies raa raa.
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Feb 9, 2018 01:39
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OwlFancier posted:raa raa my money going to pay for junkies raa raa. Better that they use a little bit from my taxes than break into my car or house. Anyone who wouldn't make that trade is dumb as all gently caress.
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Feb 9, 2018 01:40
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PT6A posted:Better that they use a little bit from my taxes than break into my car or house. Some people just absolutely seethe at the possibility that someone might be doing something they don't approve of, or having fun with even a fraction of money they might once have handled. They would rather just kill all addicts than risk the possibility that they might in some way be unintentionally charitable. Hence the desire to put them in jail, throw away they key, and also not pay to fund prisons.
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Feb 9, 2018 01:42
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OwlFancier posted:Some people just absolutely seethe at the possibility that someone might be doing something they don't approve of, or having fun with even a fraction of money they might once have handled. “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”
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Feb 9, 2018 01:43
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PT6A posted:Or just for any opiate that someone's already addicted to. Is there any reason why heroin addicts are better off being switched to some drug they don't like, rather than a clean supply of heroin they can afford and dose properly? The main problems I see with the opiate epidemic is people overdosing, the crime involved with distribution, and people committing crimes to fund their habits. I couldn't give two fucks if someone gets high safely. Legitimate reasons could include 1. buprenorphine is safer than heroin for anyone with a strong addiction (for anyone with a high tolerance it's basically impossible to OD on by itself) and 2. it's easier to live a semi-normal life on buprenorphine due to its long half-life than it is on something like heroin. It also helps psychologically to know that taking more won't really give you a high (if you're on a higher dose, that is; if you're taking, say, 2mg you actually will notice if you take an additional 1-2mg, but if you're taking 8+ you're unlikely to notice anything from higher doses). Speaking from personal experience, it helps just to know that it's pointless to even try. If I knew taking more would have an effect, I would constantly have to be fighting against that urge. Heroin should still be available for harm prevention reasons, but I'm not sure if it really makes sense to treat it as a buprenorphine substitute unless someone just repeatedly keeps relapsing to heroin after being prescribed suboxone. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 02:50
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Ytlaya posted:Legitimate reasons could include 1. buprenorphine is safer than heroin for anyone with a strong addiction (for anyone with a high tolerance it's basically impossible to OD on by itself) and 2. it's easier to live a semi-normal life on buprenorphine due to its long half-life than it is on something like heroin. It also helps psychologically to know that taking more won't really give you a high (if you're on a higher dose, that is; if you're taking, say, 2mg you actually will notice if you take an additional 1-2mg, but if you're taking 8+ you're unlikely to notice anything from higher doses). Speaking from personal experience, it helps just to know that it's pointless to even try. If I knew taking more would have an effect, I would constantly have to be fighting against that urge. Good to know, thank you for taking the time to explain.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:01
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PT6A posted:Is there any reason why heroin addicts are better off being switched to some drug they don't like, rather than a clean supply of heroin they can afford and dose properly? Some people want to quit heroin and some don't. It should be up to the doctor and patient to decide what opioid to try.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:48
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Ytlaya posted:My feeling about kratom is that it's probably best for it to be legal (if for harm reduction reasons if nothing else - better for people to take kratom than pretty much any other opioid), but people need to be better informed about exactly what it is. I mean just go look at the TCC thread. I haven’t looked at it in years but it turned into junkies waiting for their UPS packages pretty quickly
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Feb 9, 2018 05:05
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paternity suitor posted:I mean just go look at the TCC thread. I haven’t looked at it in years but it turned into junkies waiting for their UPS packages pretty quickly The Pavlovian Cult of FedEx was about some insane extract that was almost certainly stuffed with as yet unknown RCs or if you trust the two people who've say they've analyzed samples, it was o-DSMT E: the reason I mention buprenorphine specifically is all of these roadblocks to getting the appropriate waiver as a doctor and then the low cap on how many patients they can have once the hoops have been jumped: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64234/ shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 05:31
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Interesting, then-congressman now-OMB-director Mick Mulvaney signed on to a letter asking DEA to back off when they tried to schedule kratom last year https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-23/45-congressmen-ask-dea-not-to-ban-kratom-next-week
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Feb 9, 2018 06:01
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shame on an IGA posted:The Pavlovian Cult of FedEx was about some insane extract that was almost certainly stuffed with as yet unknown RCs or if you trust the two people who've say they've analyzed samples, it was o-DSMT yeah I"ve taken kratom for years but I knew better than to bump up to the extracts because that poo poo is in a mystery bottle and i know (for the most part) where the leaf comes from. I'll be really annoyed if they ban it.
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Feb 9, 2018 06:18
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paternity suitor posted:I mean just go look at the TCC thread. I haven’t looked at it in years but it turned into junkies waiting for their UPS packages pretty quickly that was people waiting for FST, which was a superpotent (oxy-strength) tincture that was supposedly derived from kratom alkaloids but may have actually been research chemicals. plain leaf is nowhere near as addictive, it is more comparable to tylenol t3 than to oxycodone
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Feb 9, 2018 12:39
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fishmech posted:Why do you think a Pfizer or a Merck couldn't make kratom very profitable? they couldnt make the plant profitable. what they could do is make drugs derived from the alkaloids in kratom profitable. by the way, the scientist going all out against kratom is scott gottlieb, who has earned a bunch of money thru GSK and can't even find the 36 deadly cases he cites: https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/fda-evidence-of-claims-in-kratom-press-release-45861/
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Feb 9, 2018 12:44
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sea of losers posted:they couldnt make the plant profitable. Bullshit. We live in a world where tobacco companies still make tobacco itself profitable.
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Feb 9, 2018 17:51
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fishmech posted:Bullshit. We live in a world where tobacco companies still make tobacco itself profitable. tobacco isnt sold as a medicine.
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Feb 9, 2018 18:25
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sea of losers posted:tobacco isnt sold as a medicine. Why do you think that matters?
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Feb 9, 2018 19:43
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I have an interesting suboxone dilemma professionally right now; I have a sibling group of four in state custody, and I'm the highest authority underneath the actual associate circuit judge in making the determination about terminating jurisdiction and sending them home. Their natural mother has more or less cleaned up, but she's still on suboxone. Personally, I'm cool with that, so I filed a motion to terminate and the judge wouldn't sign because he has ordered her to get off the suboxone. So it's tough to know how to feel about that. I personally disagree with the decision and think the kids should go home now that mom kind of has her act together. But on the other hand the harsh and callous truth is that the kids have a much better shot at having real non drug addicted trailer park lives if we keep them in care and terminate mom's parental rights. This situation happens all the time, but it's usually not because of something as innocuous as suboxone. Usually this side of it is very binary; there are parents who do what it takes to get their kids back, and parents that won't. The won'ts are usually fairly obvious. This lady's kind of stuck in the middle. I've never seen something go down like this because of suboxone. It's interesting. And I think about how something like legal heroin or supervised shooting up facilities would affect the world of child abuse and neglect and I just start laughing like the Mark Hamill joker.
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Feb 9, 2018 20:15
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Do you think the judge is sort of wink-wink getting Capone on taxes because hey it's for the best, or does he really think that taking suboxone is the issue?
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Feb 9, 2018 20:25
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fishmech posted:Why do you think that matters? because the laws regarding the sale of cigarettes/alcohol and selling prescription drugs are just slightly different, and also because only certain parts of kratom may be desirable. do you see pharma companies selling raw poppy straw instead of morphine, or weed instead of marinol? perhaps i was a little simplistic in my initial post, but my point is that if pharmaceutical companies profit off of kratom it will be through isolated chemicals or their derivatives, not the plant itself sea of losers fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 20:39
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sea of losers posted:because the laws regarding the sale of cigarettes/alcohol and selling prescription drugs are just slightly different, and also because only certain parts of kratom may be desirable. do you see pharma companies selling raw poppy straw instead of morphine, or weed instead of marinol? So why do you think kratom can't be sold profitably? Do you think everyone selling it to you is doing it at a loss? Do you think it'll just be impossible to grow a bunch at once? You sound like the people a few decades ago who swore no one would be able to make profit on regular leaf & bud weed at the corporate scale.
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Feb 9, 2018 20:42
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perhaps i was a little simplistic in my initial post, but my point is that if pharmaceutical companies profit off of kratom it will be through isolated chemicals or their derivatives, not the plant itself. there are tons of active alkaloids in kratom and in opium poppy, and not all of them are medically desirable in opium and i seriously doubt all of them are desirable in kratom. thebaine, for instance, is in opium poppy and can be used to make other drugs but is a terrible drug by itself. and no, i don't believe kratom sales are currently done at a loss. what we've been talking about is specifically pharmaceutical companies selling i as prescription medicine, not anyone selling it as a legal high or whatever. you sound like someone who hasnt considered this. sea of losers fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 20:50
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pangstrom posted:Do you think the judge is sort of wink-wink getting Capone on taxes because hey it's for the best, or does he really think that taking suboxone is the issue? Both; his take is that she should've been off the suboxone ages ago and that she's not really trying to get clean. Ideally, suboxone should be used and weaned over a long period of time, a year or even more. She's been on it closer to like three years. Her dosage right now is super low and she's compliant with her prescription. I don't know that she ever intends to give it up completely, but at the same time if she's functional and there's no tangible safety risk to the kids, I can live with that. The judge? Well, welcome to Missouri. But the counterpoint is that we're drowning in scenarios much less benign than this one, so the tough stance on opioids isn't based purely on judgment and puritanism; it's not that simple. The endless parade of brain-meltingly damaged kids coming through our system counts for something. Even the most conservative fire and brimstone judge in my super red and savage county is totally cool with an addict getting good legal treatment rather than punishment - but these addicts don't exist in a vacuum, and they aren't celibate. It's not about the addiction, it's about the tangible harm that comes from it. Seeing kids suffer upsets people and they get passionate; sometimes when that's someone in authority, addicts suffer as a result. And yet even for someone as far to the left as me, it's not always easy to find much sympathy for them. There isn't enough therapy in the world for me to put away some of the homes I've walked into.
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Feb 9, 2018 20:55
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Danknificent posted:Both; his take is that she should've been off the suboxone ages ago and that she's not really trying to get clean. If she's been on it three years, it's absurd to hold that against her. For many people, ending long-term addictions like that just isn't possible. Beyond initial withdrawal (which is very long for suboxone due to long half-life), there's an additional period of months (if not years for longer-term addicts) of severe insomnia (and other symptoms) that can make it very difficult for someone to continue holding down a job. The fact she's been on it three years means she's probably unlikely to relapse onto an illicit substance, and the suboxone itself won't affect her behavior in any way. Someone taking suboxone for years is effectively no different than someone taking any other drug they need for a health condition in terms of the extent to which it affects their behavior and way of life. I could also understand the whole "negative effects of living with a drug-addict parent" aspect if she had only been on the suboxone for less than a year or something, but three years is enough time that she's shown a strong commitment to living a sober life.
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Feb 9, 2018 21:17
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sea of losers posted:perhaps i was a little simplistic in my initial post, but my point is that if pharmaceutical companies profit off of kratom it will be through isolated chemicals or their derivatives, not the plant itself. there are tons of active alkaloids in kratom and in opium poppy, and not all of them are medically desirable in opium and i seriously doubt all of them are desirable in kratom. thebaine, for instance, is in opium poppy and can be used to make other drugs but is a terrible drug by itself. There is no reason they can't profit off just selling the leaves though. Besides you just randomly claiming they can't. Also why on earth would they need to sell it prescription??? Over the counter drugs are huge revenue sources for most pharmaceutical companies, just sell it like that in standard packages.
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Feb 9, 2018 21:21
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fishmech posted:There is no reason they can't profit off just selling the leaves though. Besides you just randomly claiming they can't. i'm not "randomly claiming," i'm giving you reasons why they'd pursue chemical isolation or modification instead of selling raw leaf and yr just kinda ignoring it. what's a raw leaf product sold by a pharmaceutical company that you can think of off the top of yr head? do they sell tree bark instead of aspirin? plain leaf kratom has some concerns regarding hepatotoxicity surrounding it, there's another reason
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Feb 9, 2018 21:27
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The closest thing I can think of are those herb oil extract things you get in the woo shops. Though whether they count as pharmaceutical or not I dunno. Even then it's generally not just a fist of leaves, either pills or liquids, presumably due to easier standardisation of the processed product.
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Feb 9, 2018 21:41
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yeah those are considered supplements and theyre required to say that any claims made have not been evaluated by the fda and the product is not made to treat or cure any disease. different from a drug. st john's wort is an example regardless, this is a stupid thing to argue about so lets talk about kratom as it relates to the topic of the op instead?
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Feb 9, 2018 21:42
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Yeah that's specifically what I was thinking of, I'd probably take the position that selling stuff as raw leaves, unless you need it to be like that, in the case of tobacco, seems less likely than products being marketed as extracts in pill or liquid form, again cos it's probably easier to bottle stuff up or press it into pills at standardized concentrations than it is to do quality control on a bunch of plant matter that you're selling as, like, a drug with dosages and stuff.
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Feb 9, 2018 21:45
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people online sell plain kratom leaf around $70/kg and seem to do okay so I'm sure all these retailers charging people who don't know better literally ten times that much have awesome balance sheets.
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Feb 9, 2018 22:56
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