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https://twitter.com/HarunErdal_/status/961654463672004610
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Feb 8, 2018 22:39
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This world is so goddamn weird.
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Feb 8, 2018 22:45
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There's a lot more people than Chomsky who try to have it both ways on this subject. I'd say most casual western leftist followers of the conflict fell into the same trap. They've come to think that promoting anti-Americanism (and to a much lesser extent, socialism) is as important as the US thought promoting anti-Communism was during some of the nastier periods in our history. People become pawns on a board, and so the value of a human life fluctuates based on ethnic, religious, political, and/or military affiliations. The innocent people caught in the middle are just sacrificial lambs for the cause. The parallels with colonial mindsets are endless. It's nothing for the left today to oppose democracy if they don't like any of the alternates to a dictatorship they align with, despite how often that offense is trotted out to demonstrate why the US is uniquely evil. They happily support Islamists like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, but Syrian Islamists, who had the audacity to open the door to the west, are all 100% dangerous extremists who want to destroy our way of life. They'll mock and criticize people living in some of the worst humanitarian crises in the world for being dumb enough to ask the US for help, but don't think twice about calling the domestic wing of empire for something as trivial as getting their loving iphone stolen. It's all just shamelessly americentric, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and it makes me sick. I'm not so bitter about it that I would oppose standing up to Turkey on behalf of Syrian Kurds out of spite for the Kurds privileged status in leftist discourse, but a lot of people need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 22:57
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Volkerball posted:There's a lot more people than Chomsky who try to have it both ways on this subject. I'd say most casual western leftist followers of the conflict fell into the same trap. They've come to think that promoting anti-Americanism (and to a much lesser extent, socialism) is as important as the US thought promoting anti-Communism was during some of the nastier periods in our history. People become pawns on a board, and so the value of a human life fluctuates based on ethnic, religious, political, and/or military affiliations. The innocent people caught in the middle are just sacrificial lambs for the cause. The parallels with colonial mindsets are endless. It's nothing for the left today to oppose democracy if they don't like any of the alternates to a dictatorship they align with, despite how often that offense is trotted out to demonstrate why the US is uniquely evil. They happily support Islamists like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, but Syrian Islamists, who had the audacity to open the door to the west, are all 100% dangerous extremists who want to destroy our way of life. They'll mock and criticize people living in some of the worst humanitarian crises in the world for being dumb enough to ask the US for help, but don't think twice about calling the domestic wing of empire for something as trivial as getting their loving iphone stolen. It's all just shamelessly americentric, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and it makes me sick. Look at this guy whine about socialists supporting a socialist organization over a capitalist one.
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Feb 8, 2018 23:13
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I'm glad you can find entertainment by making up bullshit about victims of a military campaign against civilians that has killed hundreds of thousands. You should probably look into seeing a therapist.
Volkerball fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Feb 8, 2018 |
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Feb 8, 2018 23:32
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Panzeh posted:Look at this guy whine about socialists supporting a socialist organization over a capitalist one. Supporting all socialists over all capitalists is a great way to let lovely juntas with a few Marxist trappings coopt real socialism.
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Feb 8, 2018 23:48
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Volkerball posted:There's a lot more people than Chomsky who try to have it both ways on this subject. I'd say most casual western leftist followers of the conflict fell into the same trap. They've come to think that promoting anti-Americanism (and to a much lesser extent, socialism) is as important as the US thought promoting anti-Communism was during some of the nastier periods in our history. People become pawns on a board, and so the value of a human life fluctuates based on ethnic, religious, political, and/or military affiliations. The innocent people caught in the middle are just sacrificial lambs for the cause. The parallels with colonial mindsets are endless. It's nothing for the left today to oppose democracy if they don't like any of the alternates to a dictatorship they align with, despite how often that offense is trotted out to demonstrate why the US is uniquely evil. They happily support Islamists like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, but Syrian Islamists, who had the audacity to open the door to the west, are all 100% dangerous extremists who want to destroy our way of life. They'll mock and criticize people living in some of the worst humanitarian crises in the world for being dumb enough to ask the US for help, but don't think twice about calling the domestic wing of empire for something as trivial as getting their loving iphone stolen. It's all just shamelessly americentric, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and it makes me sick. "  WHY DON'T LEFTISTS WANT THE UNITED STATES TO BECOME EMBROILED IN ANOTHER MIDDLE EAST CIVIL WAR?!"
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Feb 9, 2018 00:13
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Volkerball posted:There's a lot more people than Chomsky who try to have it both ways on this subject. I'd say most casual western leftist followers of the conflict fell into the same trap. They've come to think that promoting anti-Americanism (and to a much lesser extent, socialism) is as important as the US thought promoting anti-Communism was during some of the nastier periods in our history. People become pawns on a board, and so the value of a human life fluctuates based on ethnic, religious, political, and/or military affiliations. The innocent people caught in the middle are just sacrificial lambs for the cause. The parallels with colonial mindsets are endless. It's nothing for the left today to oppose democracy if they don't like any of the alternates to a dictatorship they align with, despite how often that offense is trotted out to demonstrate why the US is uniquely evil. They happily support Islamists like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, but Syrian Islamists, who had the audacity to open the door to the west, are all 100% dangerous extremists who want to destroy our way of life. They'll mock and criticize people living in some of the worst humanitarian crises in the world for being dumb enough to ask the US for help, but don't think twice about calling the domestic wing of empire for something as trivial as getting their loving iphone stolen. It's all just shamelessly americentric, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and it makes me sick. Why should America become more involved in the Middle Easts Thirty Years War. (I mean we did start it when we invaded in 2003.) Also, there is a curse of The Lion to be concerned about. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 00:20
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lmao, too accurate unfortunately given how the shelling always comes after some tanks get ATGM'd
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Feb 9, 2018 00:25
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Volkerball posted:That sounds like a highly exaggerated percentage, and we saw the same response with the whole al-Tanf fiasco where Iran sent a few waves of militiamen to die meaningless deaths. Whenever the US draws a line, Iran/Syria/Russia just can't help themselves. They consider it a challenge, even when that line is something like "don't use chemical weapons on civilians." They were probably told exactly what would happen if they did exactly what they did and then they did it anyways. And lo and loving behold, they got wrecked. No the 50:50 was from press releases that came out later. US involvement in Syria has been a lot higher than was ever anywhere even close to public knowledge basically from the get go. We had sizable marine units in Syria building bases like a year or two before intervention talk was even a thing. E: apropos to below: at the time 'about 500 advisors' was acknowledged. Early this year it was acknowledged that 500 sof were involved in that offensive, which suggests the 'advisory' role was likely extremely involved. HorrificExistence posted:wild If we killed 100 Syrians and Russians with that range of stuff, p much guaranteed they killed Americans in the original attack, that's a serious 'send a loud and clear message' type of strike. Also god drat they got half a region's worth of air support and fire support called in and allocated to them. I'm... curious for more details now. E: Reading about it more. Yeah they 100% read the initial attack as a deliberate attack on a us/coalition/sdf headquarters with full knowledge that US forces were present and the response seems to be in line with establishing a clear message that any aggression will be met with retaliation. I mean the irony of asserting a 'non-debatable right to retaliation' while illegally on foreign soil is... interesting, but that's what appears to have happened. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 00:50
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Imagine being stupid enough to think American imperial intervention in the Middle East is a good thing ‘This time. This is the time where we can bomb them into loving us!’
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Feb 9, 2018 01:15
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Leftists being glad to ignore or trivialize the suffering of non-white people? I'm shocked, shocked I say
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Feb 9, 2018 02:30
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Leftists being glad to ignore or trivialize the suffering of non-white people? I'm shocked, shocked I say Neo-Cons ignoring 75 years of history and being too retarded to realize American foreign interventionism always leads to more suffering and misery for local civilians? Shocked
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Feb 9, 2018 03:01
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How do you guys even keep track of which flavor of leftist or socialist or whatever yall affiliate with? As someone largely apolitical aside from wanting more human rights for people and less war crimes, idg how you remember which are the good leftists and which are the bad leftists and which are the war crime supporting leftists etc. Why tf is this thread even getting so into leftist chat anyways Like I'm p sure we've got 10 kinds of socialists in here arguing with eachother.
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Feb 9, 2018 03:53
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It's because the US sticking it's dick into the middle east blender just makes a giant mess of fighting groups and ideologies that all do war crimes and kill each other and nobody wants to admit that their political preferences shouldn't influence their support for whatever military group happens to kinda resemble it theoretically.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:11
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Leftist chat is always bad. It's why I'm actually entirely for interventionism, just not the kind whose main goal always boils down to realpolitik reasons (be it grrr Commies or grrr Putin) or resource acquistion as was the case with Bush administration, all masked with freedom fries propaganda and which almost inexorably fucks the countries in the long run. The number of ISIS recruits that quoted US intervention in Iraq marginalizing them as the reason, why they signed up there, is not insignificant, for example. Right now the primary reason why the US so resolutely intervenes on behalf of the Kurds vs Assad is to deny Iran and Russia's geopolitical goals for the region. That is it. If you think things like 'human rights abuses' actually matter to the brass at the top, that make these decisions, I honestly (and sadly) have to think that's a naive viewpoint. It is for the same reason that they might talk about defending Manbij from Turkish threats, but ultimately will let an artillery shelling or shots fired at them slide, or let their F-16s wreak havoc over Afrin for that matter. Because fighting a fellow NATO ally, even in self-defense, looks a lot worse than doing the same against a genocidal dictator that is mostly perceived as becoming a useful puppet of foreign powers. If it actually did forcefully wreck Turkmen at some point in the future, though, I might be inclined to believe there's a bit more to the US presence, other than just more of the same 'denying the enemy' poo poo that has constituted 90% of all american interventionism in the past century. CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 04:17
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Volkerball posted:There's a lot more people than Chomsky who try to have it both ways on this subject. I'd say most casual western leftist followers of the conflict fell into the same trap. They've come to think that promoting anti-Americanism (and to a much lesser extent, socialism) is as important as the US thought promoting anti-Communism was during some of the nastier periods in our history. People become pawns on a board, and so the value of a human life fluctuates based on ethnic, religious, political, and/or military affiliations. The innocent people caught in the middle are just sacrificial lambs for the cause. The parallels with colonial mindsets are endless. It's nothing for the left today to oppose democracy if they don't like any of the alternates to a dictatorship they align with, despite how often that offense is trotted out to demonstrate why the US is uniquely evil. They happily support Islamists like Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, but Syrian Islamists, who had the audacity to open the door to the west, are all 100% dangerous extremists who want to destroy our way of life. They'll mock and criticize people living in some of the worst humanitarian crises in the world for being dumb enough to ask the US for help, but don't think twice about calling the domestic wing of empire for something as trivial as getting their loving iphone stolen. It's all just shamelessly americentric, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and it makes me sick. I didn’t support the “FSA” because I have a general aversion to ethno-religious cleansing and supremacist ideologies. Hope this helps.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:25
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Herstory Begins Now posted:How do you guys even keep track of which flavor of leftist or socialist or whatever yall affiliate with? As someone largely apolitical aside from wanting more human rights for people and less war crimes, idg how you remember which are the good leftists and which are the bad leftists and which are the war crime supporting leftists etc. Why tf is this thread even getting so into leftist chat anyways it's actually pretty simple and falls into 3 major categories really -the majority of socialists, anarchists and a smallish number of marxist-leninists/authoritarian communits in general/etc. are those who do not support us imperialist intervention but dont support dictators like assad. they also tend to support rojava rather than the fsa. -the majority of anarchists, and a relatively small number of socialists/mls support rojava but are very unhappy about us bases, many marxist-leninists use this as an excuse to poo poo on a real communist revolution happening (but i wont rant about that here.) -a relatively decent amount of marxist-leninists/other authcomms are pro-dictators and obviously dont want us imperialist intervention. they are a minority but are very loud about loving dictators and are the most annoying. these people are generally referred to as "tankies" Kanine fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Feb 9, 2018 |
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Feb 9, 2018 04:28
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Duckbox posted:Supporting all socialists over all capitalists is a great way to let lovely juntas with a few Marxist trappings coopt real socialism. The choice isn’t between liberal capitalist democracy and secular socialism, it’s between secular socialism and fascist Sunni supremacism. This is the basic fact and it has been for decades and it, at the root of it, is what causes people like Volkerball to melt down like you see now, because he refuses to accept this
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Feb 9, 2018 04:29
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A Typical Goon posted:Imagine being stupid enough to think American imperial intervention in the Middle East is a good thing Surprisingly enough, a lot of people are pretty happy Kobane is Kobane and not Ayn al-Islam. I remember one woman even named her son after Obama because of that. This is the americentrism I was talking about. People like the Kurds in Kobane are products of their own political environment, not ours. It's only when you look at it from our lens that you could take acts like a NFZ to stop a bombing campaign and portray them as aggressive, pro-war moves that would be bad for civilians. Mostly because it's not our hospitals, schools, and neighborhoods that are being destroyed. It's way easier for us to handwave all that poo poo away.
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Feb 9, 2018 04:42
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icantfindaname posted:The choice isn’t between liberal capitalist democracy and secular socialism, it’s between secular socialism and fascist Sunni supremacism. This is the basic fact and it has been for decades and it, at the root of it, is what causes people like Volkerball to melt down like you see now, because he refuses to accept this Google the Arab Spring
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Feb 9, 2018 04:45
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Volkerball posted:Google the Arab Spring you mean that thing which failed to establish liberal democracy in pretty much everywhere it happened
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Feb 9, 2018 04:57
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Fututor Magnus posted:you mean that thing which failed to establish liberal democracy in pretty much everywhere it happened 
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Feb 9, 2018 05:00
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I'm reminded of this old article https://theintercept.com/2016/10/26/syria-yassin-al-haj-saleh-interview/ quote:What did you expect from the left in its response to the Syrian revolution? quote:What should people on the left who have misconceptions know about Syria?
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Feb 9, 2018 05:01
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If your version of ‘leftism’ has you defending neo-fascists in their barbarity against civilians it’s time to re-evaluate where you stand on the political spectrum
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Feb 9, 2018 05:12
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A Typical Goon posted:If your version of ‘leftism’ has you defending neo-fascists in their barbarity against civilians it’s time to re-evaluate where you stand on the political spectrum see my post above lol
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Feb 9, 2018 05:13
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Fututor Magnus posted:you mean that thing which failed to establish liberal democracy in pretty much everywhere it happened The civil rights movement failed to create equality for African Americans. Would you like to take a dump on them as well?
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Feb 9, 2018 05:18
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You could consider Assad an unsympathetic fascist murderer and also identify the fact that most of the Syrian Arab resistance right now is Jihadi/full of hosed up people. There are some components in the western leftists' willingness to ironically and unironically cheer for Assad and make "funny" Assad memes that I'm contemplating but mentioning them would probably set people off just as much as the last time I proposed a person's background may influence their worldview. Myself, im a lot less willing to get meme-y when I see those brown bodies. ("IDPOOOOL "). I can't say I'm "rooting" for anyone or anything, other than peace, or Erdogan and Assad annihilating each other. The Kurds I guess since they're the least problematic and most approaching "leftist" of the assembled groups.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:25
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Volkerball posted:The civil rights movement failed to create equality for African Americans. Would you like to take a dump on them as well? yeah, if only there was a greater power out there that could invade our profligate nation, bomb our schools and hospitals, and establish peace and equality at bayonet tip.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:25
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Feb 9, 2018 05:25
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Fututor Magnus posted:yeah, if only there was a greater power out there that could invade our profligate nation and establish peace and equality at bayonet tip. Personally, I welcome our alien friends
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Feb 9, 2018 05:28
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How can you be anti intervention and pro rojava when there's no way a Kurdish state could possibly exist without a foreign power backing it directly against Turkish/Syrian/Iranian/Everyone Else decimation.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:29
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Fututor Magnus posted:yeah, if only there was a greater power out there that could invade our profligate nation, bomb our schools and hospitals, and establish peace and equality at bayonet tip. We still owe the French for the first time.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:31
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Punkin Spunkin posted:How can you be anti intervention and pro rojava when there's no way a Kurdish state could possibly exist without a foreign power backing it directly against Turkish/Syrian/Iranian/Everyone Else decimation. it's a belief that i would consider about as well thought out as the tankies calling rojava a CIA / pentagon asset. though there's also much reason to be cynical about the long-term prospects of the washington-rojava relationship.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:33
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Punkin Spunkin posted:How can you be anti intervention and pro rojava when there's no way a Kurdish state could possibly exist without a foreign power backing it directly against Turkish/Syrian/Iranian/Everyone Else decimation. the revolution in kurdistan/rojava was happening before the syrian civil war even happened dude, dont get me wrong the us airstrikes helped but the kurds arent exactly pushovers when it comes to fighting wars.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:37
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Punkin Spunkin posted:How can you be anti intervention and pro rojava when there's no way a Kurdish state could possibly exist without a foreign power backing it directly against Turkish/Syrian/Iranian/Everyone Else decimation. You can be, if principles matter to you more than actual results, I guess. Though yea, as above poster said, while airstrikes no doubt helped them a lot, it's not as if they don't have the numbers or organization to fight pretty well.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:37
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Kanine posted:the revolution in kurdistan/rojava was happening before the syrian civil war even happened dude, dont get me wrong the us airstrikes helped but the kurds arent exactly pushovers when it comes to fighting wars.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:41
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Fututor Magnus posted:it's a belief that i would consider about as well thought out as the tankies calling rojava a CIA / pentagon asset. though there's also much reason to be cynical about the long-term prospects of the washington-rojava relationship. yeah pretty much everyone on the left agrees the american government is going to stab kurdistan/rojava in the back somehow when it's convenient considering that's literally what imperialists do
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Feb 9, 2018 05:41
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I'm aware of the history of Kurdish rebellion, and generally it's a history of being toyed around by the "great powers". I'm not trying to diminish Kurdish strength or bravery but without the intervention of some sort of foreign power there's no way the nations of which the territories of a hypothetical Kurdistan exist wouldn't all come together and quash such aspirations as they've done for ages. The Kurds will keep resisting and fighting and so forth as they always have but you can't really be "pro-the existence of a Kurdish state" and "anti-foreign intervention" unless you're expecting a future situation in which Turkey, Iran, Syria, etc all suddenly become okay with increased Kurdish power. the kurds didnt really need foreign intervention to establish rojava itself when syria fell apart and the regime pulled their troops out of the area. rojava itself isnt even a kurdish nation state really considering it's a multi-ethnic confederation where kurds themselves dont have any privilege over other ethnic groups. the kurdish people kind of rejected a nation-state idea itself when they started to move to democratic confederalism from marxist-leninism in the late 90's.
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Feb 9, 2018 05:44
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Kanine posted:yeah pretty much everyone on the left agrees the american government is going to stab kurdistan/rojava in the back somehow when it's convenient considering that's literally what imperialists do The common wisdom was that the US would eventually choose Turkey over Rojava but so far it seems like the opposite is happening
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Feb 9, 2018 05:46
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