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Luna Was Here
Mar 21, 2013

Lipstick Apathy
No no guys you see Zoe is actually totally balanced and fine because

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Asema
Oct 2, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Luna Was Here posted:

No no guys you see Zoe is actually totally balanced and fine because

nobody is saying that but you can build up your strawman if you want

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
After playing on and off since season 2 I've decided to actually take ranked seriously and try to claw my way to silver but it's really loving hard. I've been maining top yorick and my cs/damage/kda/objective stats seem to be decent but there's only so much I can do when my mids or adcs go 0/5 in the first 15 minutes. Even my mobalytics (for whatever that's worth) stats show I should be considerably higher compared to the average. Can I get some suggestions from my op.gg? yes this is brought to you by a several-loss tilt day.

Rygar201
Jan 26, 2011
I AM A TERRIBLE PIECE OF SHIT.

Please Condescend to me like this again.

Oh yeah condescend to me ALL DAY condescend daddy.


Yeah, but Zoe has spears that go around corners and minion waves. She's not exactly the same, but she is just as frustrating. More importantly, she's in the game now and old nidalee isn't

Work Friend Keven
Oct 24, 2015

I'M A BIG STUPID IDIOT WHO GETS TRIGGERED FROM THE WORDS SPORTS BALL AND HAS SHIT OPINIONS ABOUT CARD GAMES. ALSO I SAID I WAS GOING TO QUIT HEARTHSTONE OUT OF SPITE OF A TAIWANESE WINNING THE CHAMPIONSHIP SO REPORT ME IF YOU SEE ME POST IN A HS THREAD
I've read this exact same bizarre and pointless conversation 20 times on reddit

A: Zoe is busted. She plays like busted rear end poke champs which all had their poke severely tuned down

B: Zoe isn't ACTUALLY like nidalee because nidalee can heal and turn into a cat

A: Yes, but Zoe CAN TP back to lane at 2:45 for no reason

B: But Nidalee had athene's unholy grail,

C (Me, the wise keven): Who cares all of this is beside the actual point which is that extremely low CD high damage poke is unhealthy for the game and unfun for everyone, even the pokers team who are relegated to clearing waves and anti-engage instead of getting to do anything. Why do you you want to argue over if pounce was more imba than getting a hexbelt passive.

fatal oopsie-daisy
Jul 30, 2007

by R. Guyovich
just dodge the paddle star

fucker

duck trucker
Oct 14, 2017

YOSPOS

I must be broke brain cause my problem with Zoe is all about her E.

She has a cc that goes farther through walls, if she misses she isn't really punished because it leaves behind that big circle that's a good zoning tool.

The cleanse change helps though.

fatal oopsie-daisy
Jul 30, 2007

by R. Guyovich
the problem with zoe is her E and that's why they're nerfing it

the cooldown is just way, way too short and sets up her Q way too often

Methanar
Sep 26, 2013

by the sex ghost
I haven't seen a zoe in months because I ban it literally every single game no matter what. ESPECIALLY if I see someone on my own team hover it

Asema
Oct 2, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

acumen posted:

After playing on and off since season 2 I've decided to actually take ranked seriously and try to claw my way to silver but it's really loving hard. I've been maining top yorick and my cs/damage/kda/objective stats seem to be decent but there's only so much I can do when my mids or adcs go 0/5 in the first 15 minutes. Even my mobalytics (for whatever that's worth) stats show I should be considerably higher compared to the average. Can I get some suggestions from my op.gg? yes this is brought to you by a several-loss tilt day.

League is a team based game that has multiple factors based on the overall map presence, pressure, and awareness. You winning lane only has an effect on the game as a whole if you actually do something from it.

If you won lane, go and help somebody else win theirs. Go help your jungle invade and take away presence from the enemy jungle and put vision down. Yorick's entire gimmick is split pushing, but your team needs to be aware / okay of that happening because if you split pushing is countered by the other team just taking objectives like Rift, Baron, Dragon, Killing the rest of your team and getting towers. Then what's the point of you?

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
So... macro work. I do usually say "hey guys I'm yorick so just hold them off and don't die while I push forever" but I either have a team that understands this (and we win) or a team that still tries to engage or gets caught out (and we lose). It's this sort of binary result that's causing the frustration since it feels like I can't really influence anything. I've also been playing with the mindset that my teammates are generally morons and when they make bad engages I just ignore them and go back to punching towers. Should I be trying to bail them out of these even if they're obviously lost causes? And what's my course of action if my team doesn't want to take advantage of a split pusher? Just acquiesce and aram it with them?

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.


acumen posted:

So... macro work. I do usually say "hey guys I'm yorick so just hold them off and don't die while I push forever" but I either have a team that understands this (and we win) or a team that still tries to engage or gets caught out (and we lose). It's this sort of binary result that's causing the frustration since it feels like I can't really influence anything. I've also been playing with the mindset that my teammates are generally morons and when they make bad engages I just ignore them and go back to punching towers. Should I be trying to bail them out of these even if they're obviously lost causes? And what's my course of action if my team doesn't want to take advantage of a split pusher? Just acquiesce and aram it with them?

Dump maiden in a lane and go fight with your team, either the other team ignores the maiden and you get towers or someone goes to kill the maiden and you get a numbers advantage fight and get towers. Yorick has to be flexible about where he kills the towers and if you're really rolling and fed it's very possible to 1v3. You can even 1v5 if you're ultra fed and can use the maiden in the fight.

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot
If you want to have any fun with League in season 8 the #1 thing is to never play top lane. It's pointless garbage and you have almost zero influence on the outcome of games unless you completely stomp or feed unbelievably hard. Yorick is like the worst version of this because he pretty much wins lane by default but is a poo poo tier teamfighter unless he's so ahead that maiden just solos people.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
I don't usually let the ol ball & chain go off on her own as I like dropping her in to stomp a teamfight (which I usually contribute pretty well to). I will try doing that instead.

My mobalytics analysis sorta reflects your guys' comments - increase my kp%:




...or I guess just choose a different role and champ :(

Tales of Woe
Dec 18, 2004

i would not try to team fight on yorick without the maiden, so much of his damage is locked behind it especially if you're fighting at a neutral objective where you can't raise ghouls.

Asema
Oct 2, 2013

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Also you shouldn't get tilted when your ADC goes 0/5 while you are in Bronze and immediately get defeated because you aren't fighting against SKT or TSM or anybody who actually understands how to take advantage of their ....well....advantage. They'll throw. Their macro game will most likely suck butt, or they'll just farm kills while you take towers, dragons, and all of a sudden you take baron after a sloppy teamfight where they don't know how to close a game and suddenly you win.

Action George
Apr 13, 2013

acumen posted:

So... macro work. I do usually say "hey guys I'm yorick so just hold them off and don't die while I push forever" but I either have a team that understands this (and we win) or a team that still tries to engage or gets caught out (and we lose). It's this sort of binary result that's causing the frustration since it feels like I can't really influence anything. I've also been playing with the mindset that my teammates are generally morons and when they make bad engages I just ignore them and go back to punching towers. Should I be trying to bail them out of these even if they're obviously lost causes? And what's my course of action if my team doesn't want to take advantage of a split pusher? Just acquiesce and aram it with them?

I'm not going to say this is the only thing that's going on in your games, but you also as a splitpusher need to learn how to read team comps and know if it's even possible for your team to hold them off or take advantage of you. Sometimes you're going to get teams that just don't have the tools to wave clear or disengage to stop the enemy team from running them over and telling them "hey guys I'm yorick so just hold them off and don't die while I push forever" means that they just have to back off wherever the enemy goes and give up objectives.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
Thanks folks I'll keep this advice in mind and try to move forward with it. Sounds like I have the deck slightly stacked against me for easy climbing though so I'll start looking into jungling or support.

Nightgull
Jan 22, 2018

TOTALLY NOT A CONSERVATIVE
or a fucking nazi
In Dota at least, and also what I've found from playing a lot of urgot, split pushing and ignoring your team is the best way to force a win. It is incredibly frustrating to the other team if they're winning fights and getting objectives but every time they do you knock down another tower, and eventually the inhibitor. Crushing your lane opponent also helps especially in lower skill levels. Try Illaoi, I have pretty much the same style as you do and I find her very easy to play and win. Though I haven't tried Yorick yet. Urgot is my favorite by far because it's pretty hard to escape him compared to Illaoi, but he isn't as good at the 2v1, is weaker early, and it's a long learning process to get a feel on what you can and cant get away with.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



Splitpushing is an incredibly effective strategy all the way up into, like, mid/high Diamond. Most teams simply aren't coordinated enough to deal with the enormous pressure you generate, and you often gain access to jungle resources at the same time which pushes you further and further ahead. For top, I'd say that the best splitpushers up to that MMR are Jax, Fiora, Yorick, Tryndamere, and Nasus. Yorick has a slight edge because his laning phase isn't a nightmare against most matchups (compared to, say, Trynd/Nasus, who can get hard abused by certain champs), he spikes super hard off of a single item (Trinity), and he clobbers towers faster than anyone except a high-stack Nasus.

Monicro
Oct 21, 2010

And you could feel his features in the air
A wide smile and perfect hair
He had complete control of the rising tides
And a medicine bag hanging at his side

In the flowing blue world of the death-dealing physician
riot save my wife

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
Wait so should I be split pushing or teamfighting? I think I'm more confused than before now. Also please teach me because it's not doing much in bronze.

acumen fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Feb 10, 2018

Nightgull
Jan 22, 2018

TOTALLY NOT A CONSERVATIVE
or a fucking nazi

acumen posted:

Wait so should I be split pushing or teamfighting? I think I'm more confused than before now. Also please teach me because it's not doing much in bronze.

Take my posts with a grain of salt because I havent played ranked yet, I'm only level 14. But split pushing seems like a perfectly legitimate way to win games at my level and reportedly at higher levels too. If you're interested in staying top, I would recommend watching some SoloRenektonOnly, he explains his strategies well and had a billion videos on a lot of different Champs.

Monicro
Oct 21, 2010

And you could feel his features in the air
A wide smile and perfect hair
He had complete control of the rising tides
And a medicine bag hanging at his side

In the flowing blue world of the death-dealing physician
The real answer for getting out of bronze imo is get you the man who can do both

Monicro
Oct 21, 2010

And you could feel his features in the air
A wide smile and perfect hair
He had complete control of the rising tides
And a medicine bag hanging at his side

In the flowing blue world of the death-dealing physician
Sorry for double post but darius is legit incredible for bronze because he can splitpush very well and then when the other team does the bronze thing where they send 4 people to you at the same time you get to just kill them

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

?????????
?

acumen posted:

Wait so should I be split pushing or teamfighting? I think I'm more confused than before now. Also please teach me because it's not doing much in bronze.

If you get first tower, go puah down the other outer towers. Preferrably mid but if your bot has been doing well forcing bot tower and claiming drag is good too. I hold maiden for these because bot sometimes but ESPECIALLY mid will rarely go down without some big old fight. Ideally what you should do with Yorick is try and distract them in other lanes, wait for minions to run into a tower in another lane, TP to the minion being fired on, and then Q+Demolish the tower to smithereens.

In my experience in high Bronze/mid Silver land its much better to keep Maiden on hand for if things get nasty because people will straight up ignore her in a big teamfight and its hilarious. Either that or summon her when you KNOW you've got a lot of time to push because she can help ypu hard shove a wave and (usually) take a tower after you've completed Triforce.

pog boyfriend
Jul 2, 2011

acumen posted:

Wait so should I be split pushing or teamfighting? I think I'm more confused than before now. Also please teach me because it's not doing much in bronze.

basically just think of every champion as exerting some pressure wherever they are on the map. if there are 5 people bot, that is a lot of pressure bot, but it is 0 pressure top since it will take them forever to get there. you want your moves to serve some sort of purpose.

Nightgull posted:

Take my posts with a grain of salt because I havent played ranked yet, I'm only level 14. But split pushing seems like a perfectly legitimate way to win games at my level and reportedly at higher levels too. If you're interested in staying top, I would recommend watching some SoloRenektonOnly, he explains his strategies well and had a billion videos on a lot of different Champs.

split pushing is good cause if you are stronger than the other guy they need to send 2 people to deal with you, and your team can usually win 4v3 fights. if the enemy sends less than 2 people to deal with you, then you get free towers. as long as you do not die for no reason it is an easy way to exert a lot of pressure on the map

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

?????????
?

Also having maiden will straight up let you 2v1 the toplaner + jungler if theyre bad, just make sure you land your E because thats the main way of redirecting the maiden in a fight.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
Just had another loss while crushing my own lane and towers everywhere but instead of getting objectives while I punch inhibs down the rest of my team is diddling themselves in the jungle or shotgunned all over the map. What's the best way to upload a replay? I'd really like to know how to salvage these.

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



acumen posted:

Just had another loss while crushing my own lane and towers everywhere but instead of getting objectives while I punch inhibs down the rest of my team is diddling themselves in the jungle or shotgunned all over the map. What's the best way to upload a replay? I'd really like to know how to salvage these.

Download the replay in the client, go to your My Documents/League of Legends/Replay folder, and upload the appropriate .rofl file to something like mixtape.moe or any other file sharing service.

foutre
Sep 4, 2011

:toot: RIP ZEEZ :toot:

acumen posted:

Should I be trying to bail them out of these even if they're obviously lost causes?

I think if you can reliably get to a point where you can 1v2 splitpushing and keep pressure on, and know to just back up and sit in a bush to avoid gankers, then you're probably just fine ignoring your team.

However, people talk a lot about how lower elo players take fights they shouldn't, even though they're doomed/bad/etc. I think that gets hammered in pretty intensely, but the converse of that is that a lot of lower elo players don't take commit to fights that they really, really should because they get in the mindset that they're 'behind and need to farm it out' or what have you. Although it is true that a lot of low elo fights are bad, the other team is going to play the teamfight, even if it's advantageous for them, just as poorly, and a significant portion of the time will overchase/put someone in a position to get burst when they shouldn't. The mindset of 'oh, my teammates are taking a bad fight' can become a self-fulfilling prophecy - you see the engage, don't go, your teammates die, and you conclude that it was a bad fight, when in reality if you had committed to it as well it very well may have been a good one.

I realize this isn't necessarily providing a more clear rule to follow, but I think it's a really important thing to think about. I've played a few smurfs supporting through silver/gold and I'll take engages or all-ins that would work in plat+ because everyone else commits as well, but no one follows and then concludes that it's a 'lost cause'. They're definitely are some fights that are lost causes, and it's good to know when you can get more done just staying to split push, but I would look back at some of the teamfights your team loses and see if there might have been opportunities for you to pick people off, or take advantage of the chaos.

Part of the problem, of course, is that it's sort of a blind leading the blind scenario - if you don't know when to fight, and your teammates don't either, then it's really hard to correct this sort of thing. I think it's also a problem that persists from elo to elo -- whereas for me, silver players miss a ton of kill opportunities in lane, I'm sure a diamond+ player would see just as many missed opportunities in my play. Sorry that there's no real solution here (a replay review would probably help) but it's worth being aware of.

e: Also, on a different note, as a top laner you can make a lot of pro-active plays aside from splitpushing:
1. invade the enemy jungle
2. roam down mid and try and gank after shoving in your lane
3. look for 2v2s that you can turn into 3v2s in the bot lane, or ganks you can turn
and so on.

I haven't played in Bronze for a while, but games in gold/plat are definitely enough of a shitshow to have a bunch of opportunities like that

foutre fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Feb 10, 2018

TheIncredulousHulk
Sep 3, 2012

Hello thread I'm playing this stupid game again and I've been spamming Brand support and I have a general laning question: If I'm playing against a tank support who's playing up and outside the minion wave, is it mana/opportunity cost optimal to take a free combo if it's there or should I just ignore them and focus on hitting the enemy ADC with more Ws?

Also if there's any extra-cheesy poo poo to do on that champ/role please tell me

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe

Vermain posted:

Download the replay in the client, go to your My Documents/League of Legends/Replay folder, and upload the appropriate .rofl file to something like mixtape.moe or any other file sharing service.

hm okay let's try this, have at me: https://my.mixtape.moe/ypfpqj.rofl

pog boyfriend
Jul 2, 2011

TheIncredulousHulk posted:

Hello thread I'm playing this stupid game again and I've been spamming Brand support and I have a general laning question: If I'm playing against a tank support who's playing up and outside the minion wave, is it mana/opportunity cost optimal to take a free combo if it's there or should I just ignore them and focus on hitting the enemy ADC with more Ws?

Also if there's any extra-cheesy poo poo to do on that champ/role please tell me

just auto these guys at first, free auto harass is very underrated... imo, only go for full combos if you have kill potential or can force something -- if you drop a full combo on the guy, and only do like 20% of his HP(not going to happen but just giving a comically exaggerated example) and then he turns around and all ins you, what skills can you use to defend yourself? if you want to slug a guy with an e-q or something though just to really show him the business go ahead

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

?????????
?

Also literally loving nobody has resists thanks to the new rune system so autos + getting the creep wave to harass them is insanely free(tm) damage

Vermain
Sep 5, 2006



acumen posted:

hm okay let's try this, have at me: https://my.mixtape.moe/ypfpqj.rofl

This'll be a bit of a train of thought analysis. I can't give too much matchup specific advice or anything for top, so I'll just note general macro stuff when I see it:
  • 6:49: Not a good Teleport. You know the enemy Kennen's TP is still down, since he used it the first time when Kha swung around for a gank, so he's going to have to walk all the way back to lane. You don't have an immediate need to try and shove in to deny as much as possible, because you've already built up a gigantic wave that's going to crash and deny him reams of EXP. I think this one is especially important to note because, less than a minute later, a gigantic fiesta happens in botlane. Your team would have a level advantage going into the fight, and Kha is much faster on the draw than Shyv is. If you had TP available, you could have either ported in and cleaned up or threatened TP and pinged your team away, cancelling it at the last moment, just to scare the Galio off of roaming. As it is, Shyvana - a champion that needs to get ahead to do anything - gets a 350 shutdown on Kha.

  • 12:59: Not a good Teleport, but the macro mistake came earlier. At 9:49, you should've gone into a bush and backed immediately. You're sitting on 1.4k, Kennen has a gigantic wave he has to handle, and you have a cannon wave coming up. Cannon waves are common times to go back to base with, since the enemy can't push them as fast and the tower will prioritize them, meaning that you lose less farm overall. You end up absolutely dumpstering Kennen, but imagine if you'd been able to do that even half a minute earlier. That keeps your TP and then lets you either destroy his turret, rotate down to the fiesta in mid, use your TP to cleanup or threaten, or just spam ping your jungler to help you take Herald. You take Herald after, but you should've reset instead of marching down to bot. That wave's not going to push fast enough to be lost, and you have enough to complete Triforce. Triforce is a massive spike, and the sooner you get it, the sooner you can nonstop push and beat the tar out of anyone who dares try to challenge you. This is especially critical when you have Herald, because every second that you're not threatening to solo take an inhib with a Herald push is a second of tempo lost.

  • 17:29: Not a high value Herald. First, toplane inner is what's classified as a "luxury" turret in that it's not nearly as important macro-wise compared to mid inner or bot inner. The reason is pressure around Baron: if you can take botlane inhib, someone has to sit down there with TP constantly in case your team threatens Baron, and if you take mid inhib, you automatically get mid priority and can control upper redside jungle easily. Second, I'd only use it when you both have a large wave built up and have can see where most of the enemy team is. When you're splitting, Rift should be an implied threat. If you use it willy-nilly when you've only got a small wave built up and no one else is fighting anywhere, it's gonna get one charge off max and then get guttered, which is what happens. Don't be afraid to go to botlane and just start forcing up. Ping your team away and politely tell them to go pressure mid, build up your waves, wait for a random fight to break out mid, and then either rotate over to clean up or pop Herald and go apeshit on their infrastructure.

  • 20:21: Good cleanup fight, but a bad TP. Your team's clustered around botside and top wave's going to crash. Either Galio or Jhin has to go to clear it, leaving a 1v3 or 2v3 for at least 10~ seconds. I think you can ping your team here to go to bot, push up, and take the very weak inner. Even one Q is going to crush it at this point with a single minion around.

  • 22:04: Veigar goes for a cartoonishly bad TP play. The only good thing you can do in a situation like this is to not die. One of the best skills you can develop as a splitpusher is to know when to not bother, and this is definitely a situation where you shouldn't have bothered. If the enemy team had immediately rushed to Baron after killing your jungler and ADC, you might be the only saving grace if you're alive. You can fight off their potential Baron powerplay by shoving out waves and potentially even causing them to lose a turret or an inhib if your waves are in a good spot and they're slow to respond to your splitpush.

  • 25:00: I think it's fine to pressure top until your TP's back up, but the second it comes back up, you should be tailing it to bot and shoving in to their bot inhib turret, both to create pressure and to set up for Infernal. You really want Infernal, because every single person on your team aside from Shen benefits a lot from it. You end up picking a really weird fight at mid inhib turret despite Galio being in their base and Shyv being spotted by Trist, and it kills your tempo and gives away Infernal.

  • 26:50: You have the macro problem that a lot of laners have in League, where they're convinced that they have to go to the lane they were assigned to at the start of their game after every back. You're still huge at this point, and you have TP up. Pushing toplane doesn't benefit your team, because anyone can do that, but only you and Veigar can push bot without putting your team at a massive disadvantage if the enemy decides to force Baron. Take a look at the situation at about 28 minutes in, and imagine if you were instead ramming the wave down bot's throat and threatening to obliterate half the turret's health in one swing. Suddenly, the enemy team has to scramble to send someone bot, your team has a decisive 4v3 advantage, and they can either find a pick in the jungle or force Baron. If they decide to keep 4 people in jungle to try and fight your team, you merrily push into their base and destroy their bot inhib and give your team a massive pressure advantage for the next 5 minutes. Instead of doing that, though, you take a 50/50 Baron with your team and lose, with zero pressure anywhere else to compensate for it. They take mid inhib and the game's pretty much over with the amount of pressure they can exert and their massive teamfight presence in lategame.
There's a bit more after that, but it's mostly ancillary. I think the most important takeaway I can give is that you need to constantly be thinking about the state of the game and where to best to apply your lead. You ended up with a pretty enormous lead by midgame, but you squandered it by applying pressure to the wrong side of the map, using TP in unproductive ways, not trying to get maximum value from Herald, joining losing teamfights, and taking weird fights when it's not necessary to do so. I hope I don't sound too harsh with this, honestly. Your farm was good and you knew how to play the lane well. Macro's tough to get right: there's a ton of edge cases of, "Should I be pushing this lane or teamfighting?", and things like the importance of bot/mid inhib versus top inhib aren't immediately obvious until you start to understand how critical Baron is to the flow of the game.

Vermain fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Feb 10, 2018

TheIncredulousHulk
Sep 3, 2012

pog boyfriend posted:

just auto these guys at first, free auto harass is very underrated... imo, only go for full combos if you have kill potential or can force something -- if you drop a full combo on the guy, and only do like 20% of his HP(not going to happen but just giving a comically exaggerated example) and then he turns around and all ins you, what skills can you use to defend yourself? if you want to slug a guy with an e-q or something though just to really show him the business go ahead

Thank you my friend this makes sense

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
That's a ton of good info Vermain. I'll review it all with my replay later - this is what I need, thank you.

Gray Matter
Apr 20, 2009

There's something inside your head..

Had a 1v4 quadra on Xin Zhao today, poo poo on a Zoe with a 13-1 Fizz, then after that game got a hextech kog shard from a revel orb.

It was a Good Day of League.

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WIFEY WATCHDOG
Jun 25, 2012

Yeah, well I don't trust this guy. I think he regifted, he degifted, and now he's using an upstairs invite as a springboard to a Super Bowl sex romp.
League mini has a rammus ball / Leona hook / zilean ult(for you and a teammate) hero now and league really needs this imho

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