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Bombogenesis posted:Anyone that's been running Ynnari have any input on using troupes for a troop choice? Trying to help my partner with list planning and I honestly think they look really neat if you shove them into a raider or something and drop them in the enemies face but have no idea how they'll actually fare. Otherwise I have like 80 kabalite warriors that would probably suffice. Six of 'em with fusion pistols doing drivebys in a clowncar is some of the best anti-tank in the business. Clowncars have relatively small profiles so getting it behind LOS blocking cover isn't tough - and rely on that, because being out of LOS is literally the only defense those things have. Harlequins got a stratagem for +1 to invulns after advancing in chapter approved but you need a straight harlequin detachment for that.
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Feb 11, 2018 04:36
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Ropes4u posted:Excellent, now i need to pick a cool jump pack.. Spellcrow does cool jump packs that fit just fine on Primaris bodies.
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Feb 11, 2018 04:46
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...is AotI limited to allied vehicles? It says Hijack instead of Embark, and it would be badass in a hilarious way to just have six inquisitors as cheap as possible, in the fastest vehicle you have, driving around Grand Theft Auto-ing the enemy vehicles.
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Feb 11, 2018 05:20
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    Eight hours of hard work later and I'm finally done with my Daemon Prince!
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Feb 11, 2018 06:18
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I didn't know the Ultramarines had succumbed to chaos... Or is he...Alpharius?
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Feb 11, 2018 06:41
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I believe most of the big chapters have had chaos defectors (usually the librarian), except the Grey Knights because they are special boys. Cool model by the way, always love that bloghtbringer bell.
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Feb 11, 2018 07:03
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Ilor posted:I didn't know the Ultramarines had succumbed to chaos... He is indeed Alpharius; I'm doing my Death Guard as Alpha Legion. All the line troops are dressed in Ultramarine blue with hastily scrawled Alpha Legion symbols in blood, anybody teleporting in is in the traditional Alpha Legion bluegreen, and I did the Daemon Prince for the army in a blend of the two styles. That said, depending on the army configuration I need at the time, they could also be refugees from the alternate timeline where Nurgle took Gulliman. Or just straight Ultramarines who got sick. It's a pleasantly ambiguous colour scheme, I'm having a tonne of fun telling little stories with the squads and subfactions in my army with my painting choices.
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Feb 11, 2018 07:08
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Liquid Communism posted:Spellcrow does cool jump packs that fit just fine on Primaris bodies. Thanks for the tip I will check them out.
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Feb 11, 2018 11:04
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Thanqol posted:He is indeed Alpharius; I'm doing my Death Guard as Alpha Legion. One interesting thing to come out of The Bolter and Chainsword forums was the Dornian Heresy. Ultramarines form their own empire and start getting tau looking tech. Blood angels fall to nurgle, space wolves go khorne, white scars go slaanesh and i think raven guard turned to tzeentch. For a fan based project it was pretty cool and fun.
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Feb 11, 2018 12:22
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Not as cool as Nurgulliman up there, but I made some more progress on my stuff!Zark the Damned posted:Oath Complete! Calling it early this month so I can concentrate on other things. Stompy is for use as a Hellbrute in the Orkstartes. Gaze of Gork (Twin Las), Smashing First (Power Fist or Thunder Hammer depending on my mood) and Deff Breff (Heavy Flamer).
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Feb 11, 2018 12:45
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Master Twig, kudos to you and the Renegade team for the last RTT. Ran into Tyler DeVries in round one with an unfavorable board so that ended poorly (though not nearly as bad as his other opponents). Otherwise it was a lot of fun!
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Feb 11, 2018 15:41
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Welp. My local GW is closed, maybe permanently. The mall it's in has a big brewpub/theatre on the second floor above it that blew a water main this weekend. Whole lower level has a foot of standing water.
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Feb 11, 2018 16:15
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Boon posted:Master Twig, kudos to you and the Renegade team for the last RTT. Tyler is good people but also one of the best players in the country. Was he playing his 45 seripham?
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Feb 11, 2018 16:17
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Boon posted:Master Twig, kudos to you and the Renegade team for the last RTT. Yeah, Tyler will do that. Glad you had a good time. You gonna be at Con of the North this weekend? I wont be doing the RTT on Sunday, but i'm doing the team tournament Saturday.
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Feb 11, 2018 16:24
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Gregs rules: 
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Feb 11, 2018 16:26
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Master Twig posted:Yeah, Tyler will do that. Glad you had a good time. You gonna be at Con of the North this weekend? I wont be doing the RTT on Sunday, but i'm doing the team tournament Saturday. I'm going to see. I didn't know there was an RTT on Sunday until yesterday - I guess the ticketing window closed so I'll show up on Friday morning to see if one of hte final remaining slots can be found. Naramyth posted:Tyler is good people but also one of the best players in the country. Was he playing his 45 seripham? Yeah, didn't realize that until after the night was over when I checked ITC. I guess I'm just happy that our game ended 19-30 instead of his other games where he was rolling 40 and 39 points to his opponents nearly nothing. He ran something like this: - Celestine - 3x9 Seraphim with x4 Fusion each - 3x5 Sisters - Some cheap commander dude - x2 Culexus Assassins - x2 Blood Angel Commandres with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer/Jetpack - 2x5 (3x5?) Blood Angel Scouts - x3 Custodes Bike characters Those bikes characters were basically 3++ re-rollable, which is fine becuase it cost him a TON of CP before hte game even started, except he was essentially gaining CP from me and two abilities gave him the ability to retain CP on his own use on a 5+, so he essentially doubled or more his CP. The game was a ITC Champion mission with 3 objectives, 1 in the center, 1 in each deployment zone. Unfortunately the center was a Skyshield Landing Pad that we treated as ruins under LVO rules so he was able to hold 2 objectives while being unseen. I probably wasted half of my shooting in the first two turns by being unable to target characters or not being able to target infantry in the ruins due to first level LOS block. I wouldn't have won because he was clearly more familiar with the rules and how he was going to use his army, but it'd have been a much closer game if I'd been able to clear out his infantry from the objectives.
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Feb 11, 2018 16:48
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That "ruins are LoS blocking" house rule is some of the worst poo poo that's been introduced into the game and I wish it would die a death.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:00
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Liquid Communism posted:Welp. My local GW is closed, maybe permanently. Watch Facebook closely; that's a lot of water damaged product they might sell for cheap. Or throw out...
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Feb 11, 2018 17:08
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Artum posted:Gregs rules: Holy poo poo for 100 points that's insane.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:10
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Boon posted:I'm going to see. I didn't know there was an RTT on Sunday until yesterday - I guess the ticketing window closed so I'll show up on Friday morning to see if one of hte final remaining slots can be found.  This was disgustingly easy to do, the hell is wrong with the internet
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Feb 11, 2018 17:14
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Corrode posted:That "ruins are LoS blocking" house rule is some of the worst poo poo that's been introduced into the game and I wish it would die a death. Why don't you like it? A friend and I were thinking about house-ruling something like this because our local store has no LoS-blocking terrain and it it seems like an easier solution than building multiple new pieces of terrain from scratch. e: nvm, missed the last paragraph of boon's post
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Feb 11, 2018 17:15
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Artum posted:Gregs rules: What is this from? GW needs to release a generic "Imperium" codex that includes all of the standard Imperial soup stuff but includes all the hero characters from the books.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:16
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Holy poo poo for 100 points that's insane. Arven posted:What is this from? GW needs to release a generic "Imperium" codex that includes all of the standard Imperial soup stuff but includes all the hero characters from the books.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:16
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Corrode posted:That "ruins are LoS blocking" house rule is some of the worst poo poo that's been introduced into the game and I wish it would die a death. What's wrong with it?
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Feb 11, 2018 17:17
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Boon posted:I'm going to see. I didn't know there was an RTT on Sunday until yesterday - I guess the ticketing window closed so I'll show up on Friday morning to see if one of hte final remaining slots can be found. How much is that him being a top tier player and how much is it him using that ridiculous loving list?
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Feb 11, 2018 17:27
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Yeah, I'd argue that it goes hand-in-hand. As far as I can tell he pioneers his lists but between him being a good player, having a good list, and the fortune of the table it was a tall order for me to pull it out. That said, he's a good dude and it was a good game. I learned about some additional shenanigans. At that point it was my 10th game in 8th edition and I was testing an all-Craftworld list (because I have self-respect and I detest the Ynnari copy/paste lists) which I think I have 95% refined. For me, not being surprised by what an army can do is going to be the biggest thing heading into Adepticon. Raphus C posted:What's wrong with it? It leads to some really bad abuse because the only models that are visible are characters but they cannot be shot because they are not the closest (the models that cannot be shot because they are not visible are closest). When it happens dead center of the table it essentially makes any shooting beyond 12" impossible against an army with 9+ characters... who will proceed to assault you because they all have bikes or jump packs. Boon fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 17:35
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Technowolf posted:I don't think you can actually mix Aelfdari units like that. I'm pretty sure that only Dark Elves can get in Raiders (it says in the unit's rules which units can enter a transport, hence why Bigmarines can't enter Rhinos.) Dang, was hoping Ynnari may have been able to skirt around that. Ah well. Thanqol posted:Six of 'em with fusion pistols doing drivebys in a clowncar is some of the best anti-tank in the business. Clowncars have relatively small profiles so getting it behind LOS blocking cover isn't tough - and rely on that, because being out of LOS is literally the only defense those things have. Neat, thanks!
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Feb 11, 2018 17:38
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Raphus C posted:What's wrong with it? It's a quick fix for not having sufficient LoS blocking terrain on a table. In my opinion it doesn't really account for enough factors for how widely it's applied, particularly in that I suspect people building LoS blockers from scratch wouldn't make them with the same profiles as the ruins they currently have - i.e. a box big enough to hide a squad (or multiple squads in) from all sides. There's also no trade-off made from the rest of the ruins rules - it depends on exactly how they're worded, but on multiple occasions it's been described as "treat the entire lower floor as solid walls" which makes bikes, monsters etc. completely unable to enter the building. Solving a lack of LoS blockers by giving infantry units deployed in the terrain functional invulnerability to significant chunks of an opposing army is not a good result. It's also about the terrain mix. A better mix of terrain would include both ruins with solid lower walls (but not necessarily from every angle) and some solid/impassable pieces which block line of sight but can be manoeuvred around. That creates tactical decisions and introduces movement into the game, rather than just creating immunity boxes and then throwing down the same stuff you've always had. This ties into the other "issue" with 8th, that cover is useless or non-existent. That's completely untrue. It's much harder to get cover with vehicles than before, but for infantry it's key. You just need to actually get in cover by being within terrain. Cover plays an important and useful part in all my games, because my local shop has good boards with a great spread of terrain. It doesn't play a part in games on rubbish boards with 3 ruins and a hill, unsurprisingly. From a more metaphysical point of view, the house rule is doing same thing people have done for a decade - stamp their feet and refuse to accept that TLoS is here to stay, and by doing so pushing the problem ever further into the future, requiring the same band-aid approach to be continually put into place. Six weeks into 5th I would understand if people didn't have any terrain which interacted well with TLoS because it was different in 4th, but it's been ten years now and people are still saying "we don't own any terrain which blocks line of sight!" and all I can ask is "why?"
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Feb 11, 2018 17:44
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:How much is that him being a top tier player and how much is it him using that ridiculous loving list? Chicken, egg
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Feb 11, 2018 17:45
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Artum posted:Gregs rules: Amazing. He's exactly as fluffy as I wanted. Anyone got any good ideas for a Daemonhost model that isn't the garbage official one? Not sure if even the Artel W one is cool enough for Cherubael, although I'm probably going to keep using their Gregor.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:47
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I would love to see a tournament where the armies were fixed. Maybe something based on the starter set. No painting score, no gimmick builds, just players demonstrating that they are the best. Announce the armies a year in advance and see what happens.
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Feb 11, 2018 17:50
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Corrode posted:It's a quick fix for not having sufficient LoS blocking terrain on a table. In my opinion it doesn't really account for enough factors for how widely it's applied, particularly in that I suspect people building LoS blockers from scratch wouldn't make them with the same profiles as the ruins they currently have - i.e. a box big enough to hide a squad (or multiple squads in) from all sides. There's also no trade-off made from the rest of the ruins rules - it depends on exactly how they're worded, but on multiple occasions it's been described as "treat the entire lower floor as solid walls" which makes bikes, monsters etc. completely unable to enter the building. Solving a lack of LoS blockers by giving infantry units deployed in the terrain functional invulnerability to significant chunks of an opposing army is not a good result. I sort of wonder how much the difficulty in getting enough terrain to run a decent sized tournament factors in here. I think a lot of the bigger tournaments like LVO already have terrain that doesn't take the importance of LOS blocking into account because it was purchased for the meta of previous editions. I'd love to hear more about this if anyone knows, actually. The LOS rule is such an obviously imperfect solution I feel like there has to be more to the reasoning- you're 100% correct that from a gameplay perspective it's a terrible houserule that frequently leads to abusive gameplay.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:10
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Pendent posted:I sort of wonder how much the difficulty in getting enough terrain to run a decent sized tournament factors in here. I think a lot of the bigger tournaments like LVO already have terrain that doesn't take the importance of LOS blocking into account because it was purchased for the meta of previous editions. It's definitely a factor, although imo not an excusable one for anything the size of LVO. There's myriad options for getting LoS blocking terrain on tables, the most obvious of which is tin cans of all sizes. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would love to see a tournament where the armies were fixed. Maybe something based on the starter set. No painting score, no gimmick builds, just players demonstrating that they are the best. Announce the armies a year in advance and see what happens. Why? Part of the skill of the game is understanding and responding to the meta, or at the very top end it's about setting it. There's this weird idea which is current among 40k players that there's something impure about winning with a good list, and it's utterly bizarre to me.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:23
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Corrode posted:Why? Part of the skill of the game is understanding and responding to the meta, or at the very top end it's about setting it. There's this weird idea which is current among 40k players that there's something impure about winning with a good list, and it's utterly bizarre to me. I think part of this is mediocre/good players who just take whatever list someone else used to crack a meta or highlight an extreme synergy and then just point and click to varying levels of success. It's why I refuse to use Ynnari.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:45
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I can see where Beer is coming from. If I make/copy a list of nothing but Demon Princes, Leviathans and Obliterators, that says nothing to my skill at playing the game. It would be interesting to see how well people do in the spirit of competition, playing an army list they didn't tailor/download. It would be more about how well you maneuver your army rather than how better matched your army is against your opponent. It's kinda fluffy too. Being forced to deal with diminished reserves, less firepower, key units dead, etc. I think it would be fun to watch. 
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Feb 11, 2018 18:46
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Just signed up for a tourney. 1500 points battleforged, max 2 detachments. Thus should be good.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:47
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Corrode posted:Why? Part of the skill of the game is understanding and responding to the meta, or at the very top end it's about setting it. There's this weird idea which is current among 40k players that there's something impure about winning with a good list, and it's utterly bizarre to me. I get that part of the "skill of the game" is winning it before you even put down a model, and that at the highest tiers of competitive 40K you're essentially spending hours upon hours finding the most abusive combinations that maximize efficiency and synergistic effects. The idea that using lists like that isn't necessarily always the best way to play is neither weird nor recent. For me I would like to see something a bit different. I'm not suggesting it's the best way to play (it's not), nor am I suggesting it should supplant regular competitive 40K (it shouldn't). Just that, in my personal opinion, it would be interesting to see what happens if you strip away the meta and instead run a tournament where the players have the same list. To dive into things a bit more, look at the list that sparked this conversation. - Celestine - 3x9 Seraphim with x4 Fusion each - 3x5 Sisters - Some cheap commander dude - x2 Culexus Assassins - x2 Blood Angel Commandres with Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer/Jetpack - 2x5 (3x5?) Blood Angel Scouts - x3 Custodes Bike characters This is a case study in maximizing efficiency and exploiting the latest trends in 8th edition. You have an extensive source of CP (battleforged, two battalions and a supreme command detachment), multiple means of obtaining spent CP (Kurov's Aquila, the Veritas Vitae, and presumably the Company Commander was the HQ for Brilliant Strategist), and multiple sources of stratagems. You have an extensive number of counters for anti-armor and psykers, a ridiculous amount of maneuverability, cheap but well entrenched objective holders, and a myriad of other exploitable benefits all because GW wanted to allow Imperial players to field multiple factions. It's a perfect example of how utterly hosed the army composition rules are because GW wanted to encourage people to put together combinations that made sense in the lore, even though they already have that ability in narrative play. Is there skill in coming up in this list? Absolutely. It takes a lot of knowledge and experience to understand how to best exploit the imbalances and synergies in something as complicated as 40K. I would just prefer to see what happens if you remove that particular skill and focus on the tactical portion.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:53
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Is there a difference between saying 'this terrain blocks LoS' and having terrain that actually blocks LoS? Seems like the problem is with the rules on shooting at characters, in this particular case.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:56
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Artum posted:Gregs rules: That's tremendously flavourful. He's oh-so respectable til folk see him calling upon powers beyond mortal ken, and then it's all "dude.. is that a daemon? You know we're supposed to be the good guys, right?"
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Feb 11, 2018 19:00
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Fixed armies is also a pretty big thing in history-focused historical games. If you're playing a 1939 scenario, a Polish platoon looks like this while a German platoon looks like that. You can make small adjustments, but gimmick builds are right out and it's more about your table skill than list building. From that perspective, it's a little frustrating that 40k armies don't really follow any in- universe rules. An imperial guard platoon can consist of drat near anything.
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