|
Aren't modded-in factors like these the reason why we have designations for tool-assisted / non tool-assisted runs? It's fine by me as long as the runner acknowledges they're using a mod.
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 16:22 |
|
|
So basically there's a 98% chance of having to reset after playing over 20 minutes if you want a competitive time? It sounds like you could almost grab the record just by spending a ton of time on the game - not in order to become more skilled at it but to grind it out until you happen to get luckier than most. Seems like the question here is whether it's acceptable to sacrifice some integrity of the game/run itself if doing so facilitates community engagement and competition as well as prevent the stagnation of the speedgame. WR vs. fun, I guess. People are comparing this to acceptable RNG odds in Final Fantasy, Zelda and Super Mario, which is fair enough, but it feels like there's a fairly significant difference in the "prestige" of the accomplishment there, I guess you could call it. Maybe that's just me, I don't really care about Bioshock, but I imagine there's nowhere near the same amount of incentive to run it, so it's no wonder if people prefer to just drop it. It's still a little funny that for example many Pokemon speedgames do essentially the exact same RNG seed manipulation thing but because you have to manually press one button to start the game on the correct frame it's perfectly acceptable. e: Start-scumming, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
that mod sounds like the sort of thing I'd use in a marathon run but probably not for attempts or whateverDancer posted:Like, I'm not gonna tell people how to run they're game, my point was that *if* the mod was allowed at all, the separate category would be silly. The community decided they want the option to run with the mod... so might as well make it replace any% instead of putting both leaderboards up. Because there is no meaningful gameplay difference between the two leaderboards. That kinda makes sense, but I don't like the total lack of distinction at all? But then the video talks about having a variable indicating if it was used which would satisfy that if they actually choose to do that. SuccinctAndPunchy fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
I just don't see what the big deal is about trying to remove something that makes 98% of runs completely worthless and is based entirely on randomness, especially considering as far as I know none of y'all run the game
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:57
|
|
|
I think people should play games in whatever way maximizes the fun they have while doing it. I realize this is not a popular opinion here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 19:58
|
|
|
DoubleDonut posted:I just don't see what the big deal is about trying to remove something that makes 98% of runs completely worthless and is based entirely on randomness, especially considering as far as I know none of y'all run the game you could reasonably argue that you may as well fix all other RNG elements which Infinite does have some of, that it devalues looking for alternate routes, skips and methods that perhaps don't require it or make it less valuable if everyone is just going to mod you could argue that modifying the game in any format compromises integrity to some extent and opens the door for a lot of dodgy poo poo you could argue that runs that fail due to a pretty long shot RNG is hardly unique to Infinite I dunno there's actually a lot of reasons. It's true I don't run Infinite but I've seen this argument before in a lot of communities I've been in. Resident Evil 3 faced more or less the same problem with the random chance to attain the important grenade launcher, if you randomly roll Magnum instead you cannot WR, reset, try again. A mod to fix this RNG was still rejected flat out by that community and honestly basically laughed at? But they seem to have considered all of that and gone "eh nvm" and done it anyway. Which I don't really care because yeah I don't run Infinite. gently caress I don't even like Infinite. I just think it's really strange this is the route they've gone with it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:03
|
|
|
I think all those communities that rejected it are loving dumb, then, if they're fine with a prerequisite to running a game being okay with 98% of your runs being pointless because you didn't get the good RNG Like, maybe it'll devalue finding alternate routes. I think the community for your game falling apart because you absolutely have to reset 98% of the time to run the game is probably going to make finding those alternate routes even more unlikely
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:17
|
|
|
Why does the community around a speedrun matter more than playing the game fast? If it’s called “any%” or “beat the game” or w/e on the leaderboard, with no qualifications, then an unofficial modified version of that game/category is pretty obviously not the same thing? Just add another category that has the mod, everyone’s gonna be running that category anyway lol how is this a real discussion (i mean elsewhere, obv no one here really cares) I can’t run “any% mod” what if people don’t take my speed time as seriously
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
I got a sub 49 in Hob yesterday, which I -thought- was my long-term goal, but I don't quite feel done yet. Still very excited to get this time! the run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74xFVeJ2lI and if you just want to see my excitement and surprise at the end I have you covered: https://twitter.com/halfcoordinated/status/962738192058322945
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
One of the given reasons for doing this was that people would just grind out the hat. It saves 8 minutes so it's going to save time even if it takes you 2 minutes to grind out the hat. Using the mod eliminates the grinding time. It's not that 98% of runs are just dead when they get to that point. It's that 98% of runs have to waste a varying amount of time getting the hat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
I mean it's a two hour run so that's more reasonable. I'm not knowledgeable about the run or anything, I just don't have a problem with people wanting to remove an RNG thing that would (hypothetically) cause any run that couldn't make it to immediately be dead.heeheex2 posted:Why does the community around a speedrun matter more than playing the game fast? If it’s called “any%” or “beat the game” or w/e on the leaderboard, with no qualifications, then an unofficial modified version of that game/category is pretty obviously not the same thing? because a lot of people also complain about categories that they think shouldn't exist
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:33
|
|
|
tiistai posted:So basically there's a 98% chance of having to reset after playing over 20 minutes if you want a competitive time? It sounds like you could almost grab the record just by spending a ton of time on the game - not in order to become more skilled at it but to grind it out until you happen to get luckier than most. that's how distortion got the record according to that video - it took him 12 tries for it to spawn or something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:36
|
|
|
Allowing mods is incredibly dumb and I'm a little shocked get it at how comfortable so many people are with this precedent. If your run fails, for whatever reason, then try again. Putting in the time, energy, and resets is obviously a huge part of speedrunning. If people can't handle that then play something easier/more predictable or don't play at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:46
|
|
|
It seems reasonable to me. Making speedrunning more accessible is a Good Thing. Having a community that loses interest and dies because of long-shot rng doesn't really benefit anyone. I guess it benefits people that are outside the community looking in that are like "MODS AREN'T LEGIT GUYS STOP USING THEM" but other than that, nope. It's almost like the people running the game would rather have their game's speedrunning community survive, grow, and evolve, rather than having it stagnate, shrink, and die. Monsters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:49
|
|
|
oh sorry that some people on their discord were getting lonely
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
Let the community die, they'll be happier in games that don't do this stuff
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
Former Human posted:oh sorry that some people on their discord were getting lonely DoubleDonut posted:really hosed up that people try to facilitate having fun with playing video games fast
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
1-800-DOCTORB posted:Symphony of the Night has a faster route that nobody has been able to replicate in a run which depends on an incredibly unlikely meal ticket drop which then depends on the meal ticket randomly becoming a toadstool which then depends on the RNG damaging yourself in just the right way to make a jump. Should SOTN runners use a mod that forces all of these conditions to occur 100% all the time? Push the fat man
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
heeheex2 posted:Why does the community around a speedrun matter more than playing the game fast? Well that's the question, isn't it. What's your motivation for running a game? Do you want to have the fastest time, or do you want your speedgame to be popular and competitive? I imagine for most people it's some kind of a mixture of both but I can understand both viewpoints. It's the same thing as with running obscure games: some people don't mind that they're the only person running their speedgame, while for others that would be a complete waste of time. Apparently the BioShock Infinity community values competitiveness over the integrity of the game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
i didn't know that smb3 was dependent on rng until i watched summoning salt's video. had no idea about those hands.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:34
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:i didn't know that smb3 was dependent on rng until i watched summoning salt's video. had no idea about those hands. what have you never played smb3 before???
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:36
|
|
|
i was a sega kid. i didn't see that far into the game playing it over friends' houses.fool_of_sound posted:lol smb3 was released before I was born. O_o
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:38
|
|
|
financially racist posted:what lol smb3 was released before I was born. i played it briefly on a friend's gameboy, and that's my entire first hand exposure to it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
well do yourselves a favor and play smb3, it is an extremely good video game
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
Even if you had played SMB3 you might not have paid attention enough to realize those hands are random
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
Al Borland Corp. posted:Let the community die, they'll be happier in games that don't do this stuff tbh yeah this not all games are built equal some just kind of loving suck for speedrunning, kinda sucks you picked one but oh well I also just note that Infinite is really not special in this regard and I find it sort of hilarious that the video really fiercely attempts to position it as being so. Guys need to run Forbidden Memories, you get hella perspective on RNG that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:47
|
|
|
Al Borland Corp. posted:Even if you had played SMB3 you might not have paid attention enough to realize those hands are random yeah that too i probably would've assumed there was a pattern of some kind.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:50
|
|
|
The dumb poo poo is they're making this mod the official any% instead of a separate category. Feels like a dumb ploy to make them feel better about their community rather than just admitting that any% is hosed for speedruns and that they need to run an alternative category if they want to enjoy the game again.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 21:59
|
|
|
Yeah I agree that it should be a separate category. There are other games with any%s nobody likes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
if it's a good game to run except for one extreme case of rng it's fine to get rid of it so you can enjoy the rest of the game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:02
|
|
|
Venuz Patrol posted:if it's a good game to run except for one extreme case of rng it's fine to get rid of it so you can enjoy the rest of the game. Well yeah shame we're talking about Inifnite here 
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:03
|
|
|
i'm sure ken levine would throw a tantrum about the sanctity of his design vision being compromised, but nobody here is ken levine, so who cares. it's bioshock infinite with or without the mod
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:04
|
|
|
Speedrunners should have fun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:05
|
|
|
But you save 3 frames by refusing to have fun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
Speedgaming should be pure !
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:44
|
|
|
what's the category for who can install the mod the fastest?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 22:56
|
|
|
i'm sure the community of people who have decided this are waiting with bated breath to see what ignatius j goon decides about their decision
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 23:13
|
|
|
Kaubocks posted:what's the category for who can install the mod the fastest? New category: Time starts when you press A on the start menu of the bare game. Then you leave the game, download DLC that contains a big time save (meanwhile the clock keeps ticking), install the DLC, restart, play the game using the DLC time save, and time ends when you beat the final boss.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2018 23:15
|
|
|
Studio posted:Speedrunners should have fun. what a ridiculous notion
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 01:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 16:22 |
|
|
In mass effect 2, when you start the game, you walk down a hallway for 30 seconds and then there's a 10 minute unskippable cutscene, and then the game starts for real. Runners have agreed to start the game from a loaded save after the cutscene, effectively choosing to not play a part of the game becuase it isn't fun or interesting. They've invented a new game to run that is mass effect 2 but slightly altered. I see bioshock infinite in a similar vein. There's bioshock infinite, a garbage game that is no fun, and then there's bioshock infinite prime, a cool game for chill people. Nobody is stopping you from running the bad game. The times aren't tracked for it because nobody actually wants to play it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2018 01:13
|
|