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Antares posted:Overall I really like the expansion but unless there's something stupid I'm missing loyalty makes wars incredibly tedious. About half the time I take a city it starts with 3 turns to revolt, and the revolt immediately ejects my units in all directions, making any sort of campaign take forever. Once I had a city flip back to its owner within a few turns of revolting before I could siege it (again). This was the nearest enemy city, maybe 7-8 tiles from my capital. Am I supposed to just buy that 3-turn governor and keep him on standby?? I had a city that I took but just couldn't keep - it flipped to a free state 3-4 times despite me having governors in all my neighboring cities. Finally an emergency spawned that required other civs to take it so I burned it to the ground.
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Feb 11, 2018 19:01
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I managed to avoid the dark age by going back a few turns before I had my settler put a city up north and instead have them put a city on the nearby continent that has Brazil, Rome, etc. Rome was a little annoyed, but didn't care ultimately. Man Korea is crazy good with science.
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Feb 11, 2018 20:32
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I went into a dark age for the first time today after not reading about what they do before hand, and it wasn't nearly as bad I expected it to be - and the dark age policies you can enact are really powerful. It might actually be worth planning to go into a dark age early on when you have settled your initial cities and then following that up with a heroic age.
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Feb 11, 2018 21:45
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Prav posted:i wonder if they realize how incredibly broken Magnus is Magnus is broken for reasons that you could exploit pre-Magnus so I doubt it.
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Feb 11, 2018 21:58
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Has Firaxis made any significant AI improvements since release? I gave up on it shortly after release when I was able to easily get a win on Emperor on my second game without losing a single city.
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Feb 11, 2018 23:44
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Eschatos posted:Has Firaxis made any significant AI improvements since release? I gave up on it shortly after release when I was able to easily get a win on Emperor on my second game without losing a single city. only in the sense that the first step you take up a mountain is significant
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Feb 11, 2018 23:49
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TyrantWD posted:I went into a dark age for the first time today after not reading about what they do before hand, and it wasn't nearly as bad I expected it to be - and the dark age policies you can enact are really powerful. It might actually be worth planning to go into a dark age early on when you have settled your initial cities and then following that up with a heroic age. This exactly. In fact, I suspect that there's some benefit into going into a dark age with several actions queued up after the age starts to propel you into a heroic age. Someone's got to be theorycrafting this already.
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Feb 11, 2018 23:53
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Prav posted:i wonder if they realize how incredibly broken Magnus is
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Feb 12, 2018 00:32
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Poil posted:What's making him so broken? double harvest yields
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Feb 12, 2018 00:48
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Poil posted:What's making him so broken? Double yields from chopping is absolutely insane and he gets it as his starting ability. His food boost and stacking factory abilities are also bonkers and would probably make him the best governor overall anyhow, but chopping is so fuckin good.
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Feb 12, 2018 00:54
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Ah, thanks. I completely missed that and thought it was only when getting rid of bonus resources.
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Feb 12, 2018 00:59
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Took too long to ask my question
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Feb 12, 2018 01:02
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Straight White Shark posted:Double yields from chopping is absolutely insane and he gets it as his starting ability. Personally I don't care much about his stacking factory bonus, it's all right in certain situations especially if you get the one for Strategic resources when you need it but it's really all in the chopping. I take him early for chopping + no pop loss on settler build then focus on other governors like Surveyor usually, but the chopping bonus is carrying me in the game I just started as Netherlands on an archipelago map with very little production. Pop limes policy, build ancient walls, when ancient walls are 1-2 turns away from completion, have Magnus in the city, chop a forest to complete the walls and overflow into a 1-turn harbor and 1-turn lighthouse. Harvest overflow with +100% modifiers is ridiculous and so easy to abuse. Also works with naval unit policies since those are 100%.
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Feb 12, 2018 01:07
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Anyone got opinions on the iPad version?
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Feb 12, 2018 02:13
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Magil Zeal posted:Personally I don't care much about his stacking factory bonus, it's all right in certain situations especially if you get the one for Strategic resources when you need it but it's really all in the chopping. I take him early for chopping + no pop loss on settler build then focus on other governors like Surveyor usually, but the chopping bonus is carrying me in the game I just started as Netherlands on an archipelago map with very little production.  Holy poo poo, I did not even realize harvests were affected by production multipliers because it's so powerful on its own.I agree 100% about the factory bonus being completely overshadowed by the harvest bonus, but it's not like chopping is the only thing he has going for him, he's still a strong choice even when you don't have any chopping to do.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:32
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How many expansions are planned and weren't there bundle deals for the core game + eventual expansion packs? Just wondering how much money I've wasted by buying the core game a month after launch for $44 and pre-ordering Rise and Fall more than 2 months ago for $24 and I still haven't played it.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:03
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Josh Lyman posted:Just wondering how much money I've wasted by buying the core game a month after launch for $44 and pre-ordering Rise and Fall more than 2 months ago for $24 and I still haven't played it. $68 
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Feb 12, 2018 03:15
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I need to learn to chop, I guess. I always leave forests in place and build lumber mills. When you build a district on a forest tile, does it auto-chop or do you need to do it manually first?
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Feb 12, 2018 03:25
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Glass of Milk posted:When you build a district on a forest tile, does it auto-chop or do you need to do it manually first? what does your heart tell you
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Feb 12, 2018 03:40
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Building over a wood, rainforest, marsh, or bonus resource destroys it with no bonus for you. You need to harvest with a builder to get the yields from it. That's why it gives you the warning before you build over one.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:44
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Glass of Milk posted:I need to learn to chop, I guess. I always leave forests in place and build lumber mills. When you build a district on a forest tile, does it auto-chop or do you need to do it manually first? Districts/wonders remove features without any reward, so you need to chop first if you want those hammers. Any forested hills should be chopped down and mined; with a river the lumber mill will give 1 more production overall, but that's hardly worth giving up 100+ production upfront. Flat forests are more of a trade-off, especially with a river, but unless the city is completely starved for production it's pretty safe to chop away. Also, remember that jungles give half as much production (plus food) and they're pretty bad in the long run, so by midgame you'll be looking to slash and burn.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:50
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Glass of Milk posted:I need to learn to chop, I guess. I always leave forests in place and build lumber mills. When you build a district on a forest tile, does it auto-chop or do you need to do it manually first? Manually, and it's almost always worth it to use a builder to remove the feature before building, even without Magnus as that city's governor.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:52
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Glass of Milk posted:I need to learn to chop, I guess. I always leave forests in place and build lumber mills. When you build a district on a forest tile, does it auto-chop or do you need to do it manually first? In some cases, I do leave forests next to rivers, Magnus can't be everywhere, your cities aren't always coastal and ancient wall chops are efficient but medieval/renaissance wall chops are harder to pull off in lower-production cities. Remember, lumbermills get +1 production when next to a river so if it's between a river woods or other woods to save save the river woods because it's actually somewhat competitive with a mine. But the reason I'm not as sold on Magnus's other bonuses is that I'm simply usually moving him around too much to really have him sit in place and use all his stuff, and I don't like to spam Industrial Zones everywhere if I can help it anymore. With Surveyor I can sit her in a city with +30% to districts and build while purchasing builders with +1 charge, but with Magnus I'm always chopping and moving. I'm sure there are opportunities to use his other stuff though it's just not how I usually play.
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Feb 12, 2018 03:53
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Straight White Shark posted:Districts/wonders remove features without any reward, so you need to chop first if you want those hammers. Magil Zeal posted:In some cases, I do leave forests next to rivers, Magnus can't be everywhere, your cities aren't always coastal and ancient wall chops are efficient but medieval/renaissance wall chops are harder to pull off in lower-production cities. Remember, lumbermills get +1 production when next to a river so if it's between a river woods or other woods to save save the river woods because it's actually somewhat competitive with a mine. An Apprenticeship-improved mine ties with a riverside lumber mill in terms of production at +2 each, you will have Apprenticeship at about the same time you get lumber mills anyway if not before, and mines get their second production boost significantly earlier than lumber mills do (Industrialization versus Steel, for Industrial versus Atomic Era, respectively). Spending two builder charges instead of one is basically the only drawback to chopping and mining riverside hills, it's otherwise still outright better since you get an immediate production injection and the same (or more, if you have Industrialization but not Steel) production per turn from the tile. Riverside woods on flat land are basically the only woods where a lumber mill is really worth considering; the only other woods you don't want to chop are woods on resources you improved already and thus can't chop without removing the improvement first (assuming I'm remembering correctly and you can't just chop despite the improvement, which I'm reasonably sure you can't do), spending three builder charges total between destroying the improvement, chopping the woods, and then rebuilding the improvement. Probably, at least; between turn time and production cost for the builder that seems like it shouldn't be a net gain, though I haven't actually done the math on it. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 05:31
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Roland Jones posted:An Apprenticeship-improved mine ties with a riverside lumber mill in terms of production at +2 each, you will have Apprenticeship at about the same time you get lumber mills anyway if not before, and mines get their second production boost significantly earlier than lumber mills do (Industrialization versus Steel, for Industrial versus Atomic Era, respectively). Spending two builder charges instead of one is basically the only drawback to chopping and mining riverside hills, it's otherwise still outright better since you get an immediate production injection and the same (or more, if you have Industrialization but not Steel) production per turn from the tile. Technically yes, a riverside lumber mill only ties an Apprenticeship mine in production, but you are forgetting that the woods itself adds +1 production so it comes out ahead. A plains hill woods riverside lumber mill is 1F5P, while a plains hill mine is 1F4P. With that said, on a hill I would still probably chop the woods because of the larger immediate bonus.
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Feb 12, 2018 05:43
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Magil Zeal posted:Technically yes, a riverside lumber mill only ties an Apprenticeship mine in production, but you are forgetting that the woods itself adds +1 production so it comes out ahead. A plains hill woods riverside lumber mill is 1F5P, while a plains hill mine is 1F4P. Oh right, I did forget that. Yeah, scratch what I said up there. The production injection still probably outweighs the benefits of just putting a mill there, particularly as you get later into the game and thus have fewer turns to benefit from the mill, though, plus, as you say, an immediate bonus is almost always better than a delayed one, since you can use that to gain advantage over people, do more, and wind up better in the long run anyway.
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Feb 12, 2018 05:55
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Rirse posted:Ugh, I have three turns left before I get a dark age and only need two points to get out of it. What is some quick thing I can do to earn enough points to avoid it, as I rather load a old save then get hit by that poo poo. What sucks is being one or two points away from a golden age. Normal ages are boring and have no advantage. I guess a dark age would suck if you were planning on like conquer a city on a new continent or you had vulnerable new colonies or something. I've never seen loyalty issues unless I was really messing with someone- taking cities near their capital or forward settling an established city. So you can't do that as well. And if you were trying to actively flip an enemy city you'd be out of luck. Otherwise dark ages are actually good.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:38
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Eiba posted:Dark ages are not bad and in fact own. If you're like one point away from a normal age, that's fantastic. You get all the fun dark age policies and if you play your cards right you can leverage it into a heroic age. That's kind of interesting. The designers did bring up how, despite liking the idea of rising and falling and such, most players hated it actually happening to them and would reload rather than deal with the consequences of their failures. Making Dark Ages good and interesting in some ways, while perhaps being a bit too far in the other direction from some perspectives (Normal Ages arguably being the worst is definitely a problem), gets around that problem and is definitely a more interesting and fun way of handling things than making them a failure state or purely negative punishment. The kinks could be worked out, but I definitely like the idea, at least. (That kind of sums up a lot about this game, really.)
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Feb 12, 2018 08:42
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Eh, I like it well enough as is. Mechanically the game's going to be more interesting if dark ages are good. It's one of a few catch-up mechanics in a game that's all about snowballing. But the way it's implemented it's not just a frustrating blanket rubberbanding bonus to losers. All the dark age civics have a pretty major downside in addition to a neat bonus. If you've fallen behind in some ways you have the option to throw all in on certain strategies, sacrificing some flexibility to leverage these new specific bonuses. And the loyalty issues mean you will have trouble hurting other people directly. Basically it's a pretty good tool for you to get your house in order, and if you succeed, there are some real major benefits in a heroic age. I was afraid it would be stressful, but it's actually a pretty fun mechanic. Full disclosure, I say this as someone who got a heroic age in my first game without trying too hard and the thrill of that might be biasing me.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:51
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Oh, yeah, no, I'm not saying they shouldn't be fun, that's something I support. Just, them being generally better than a normal age, which is harder to earn, feels off. A good way to fix that might be to add some stuff to normal ages rather than lowering dark ages, since as you say it seems like they're actually in a really good place now, and likewise golden and heroic ages are great. Normal ages are just... Normal, though. Which makes sense but at the same time, outside of not having terrible loyalty, doesn't really offer anything over a dark age. Of course, how to "fix" that is kind of a difficult question, and how things are is definitely be preferable to dark ages being unfun and stuff.
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Feb 12, 2018 10:00
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Anyone got opinions on the iPad version? very good for long travels, but you need a power source because it drains super fast don't play on large maps, game starts to crawl also obviously no mods available, might be a dealbreaker
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Feb 12, 2018 10:12
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I've beaten the game 4 times now with new civs: The Netherlands Zulu Korea Cree The Netherlands I found pretty limited, the location requirement for the polder is way too strict. In my game I only managed to build 2 of them despite settling 5 coastal cities. The unique unit, the Zeven Provinces whatever, is really meh. The Netherlands was better in Civ V simply due to the polder being more easy to build. Zulu was super powerful once you have the Impi, I just steamrolled everyone with the early corps. There was nothing they could do, I didn't even have to bother about healing, just steamrolling city after city and healing through promotions. Almost too good. With Korea I won a science victory in 1870, not really something spectacular seeing the Turn 150 science victory posted earlier but I only had 4 cities and I pretty much just pressed next turn for 4 hours straight. Very good. I won a science victory with the Cree, very powerful early game since you can grab lots of city tiles with the traders. Insane trading bonuses later on if you manage to have a lot of camps and pastures in your cities. I think that the different ages are bad because they force a very similar play style with all civs. You are chasing those eurekas, inspirations and whatevers to get the golden ages, all civs play the same now. You buy units to hit eurekas and inspirations, you build the same stuff and do the same things to get the different points. This causes you to play very optimally further increasing the difference between the player and the AI, if you weren't steamrolling before you will surely be steamrolling now as the game pretty much forces you to play optimally unless you want a dark age to get a heroic age but why not just aim for all golden ages? All my games now look the same way, I start with a dark age, then heroic, then gold, gold, gold, gold and win. I did get a dark age as my last age in my first game because I wanted the cheevo for it but in all my other games it's been a gold age just by virtue of playing the game. I think the AI has been improved in that it is very aggressive with it's units instead of only being aggressive with their mouths, in all my games there has been a civ that has been completely taken out of the game by the other AIs, taking several cities, not only a badly located capital. The AI also takes over city states much more aggressively now than before and actually proposes pretty fair trades if they are on a good standing. The AI does not forward settle as much as before but it still happens but now loyalty will gently caress them up and give you a warmonger free city to conquer. All in all I think this is a good expansion except for the different ages, it railroads you way too much in my opinion. Governors are pretty meh except for Magnus and the one you can place in a city state for double the number of envoys. They are not bad but I don't think they are very powerful either, most have very "eeeeh" abilities.
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Feb 12, 2018 10:48
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It's probably nothing new in relation to Rise and Fall, but I got a good chuckle while playing multiplayer, where as Rome I offered olives and a peace to another player and made the obvious joke about extending the olive branch. The dejected sigh that joke received was only improved by the game then awarding an achievement by the same name once the peace was accepted  I've been enjoying the new expansion stuff, though I feel like Governors are one of those things I'm never going to be optimal at using.
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Feb 12, 2018 11:17
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Banana Man posted:There was a turn 150 Diety science win on regular speed with Pericles on civfanatics (I think someone upthread might have mentioned it) involving going 3 theaters before building any campuses (campii?). I wonder with Magnus if it would speed that up at all. I look forward to this strategy getting nerfed in the first attempt at a balance patch (in three months)
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Feb 12, 2018 13:32
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I need to watch more strategy videos like these. I'm still a King player who can't formulate any kind of proactive strategy, so even if it's minmaxy being able to see a plan and how it's executed helps.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:09
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Fhqwhgads posted:I need to watch more strategy videos like these. I'm still a King player who can't formulate any kind of proactive strategy, so even if it's minmaxy being able to see a plan and how it's executed helps. I highly recommend watching TheGameMechanic on Twitch. He streams regularly (and has a ton of vods with past broadcasts), only plays deity, and is really helpful and explains his thought process. I jumped up to playing emperor and immortal not long after I started watching him.
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Feb 12, 2018 15:31
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Scotland is fun, golf courses rule. Interestingly enough in my game Peter (after being my ally and friend for most of the game) decided to join up with China to declare a joint war on me, which triggered an emergency of betrayal. The emergency system is a bit weird with the accept/decline thing, I thought it would have been "everyone probably needs to be involved in this" not a "well I guess you can care about this" sort of thing. I was shocked when I was the only person to care about liberating Egypt's capital (which I literally barely did with my last unit on my expedition force, which was neat.) Dragongem fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 16:19
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Anyone got opinions on the iPad version? It is very serviceable for a portable fix. Runs really well on my first gen iPad Pro. If they released DLC for the iPad I’d buy it. No multiplayer other than local.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:28
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Coming close to an end on my first R&F game. Overall I think it's a pretty decent expansion, it hasn't knocked my socks off but the new content is generally pretty solid. A lot of the new features seem fairly understated, but that's probably for the best, it would get obnoxious in a hurry if dark ages/loyalty had more impact. So far emergencies seem to be the only real dud. They pop up pretty randomly and really gently caress with the already-tenuous diplomacy. After playing several games of Civ 6 without seeing the dreaded nonsense joint war, I had friendly Tomyris and Trajan randomly declare on me. This created a backstab emergency, which Trajan joined, forcing him to backstab his backstab partner to punish her for backstabbing. I like the concept, but they really needed to put in more work on figuring out what should qualify for an emergency. A random betrayal or city-state conquest does not feel like the kind of OH poo poo, DOGPILE NOW moment that emergencies are designed for.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:19
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