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Seriously though I think I remember learning Tolkien loved he cinema so he would have seen Oz and everything. Am I misremembering ?
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Feb 10, 2018 19:08
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Tolkien must have known at least vaguely what was up with American fantasy, he corresponded with L Sprague de Camp and read Bob Howard and CL Moore. But I don’t know if Oz was really considered to be in the same field at the time. I think that by the time 30s and 40s when he made the change away from gnomes, Oz would have been considered out of vogue (Baum had died in 1919) kiddie lit and not strictly interesting to fantasy fans.
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Feb 10, 2018 20:15
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Yeah, but that's why I said "resurgence"; the 1939 movie was a huge blockbuster, and I have a hard time believing it wouldn't have sparked something of a fandom spike and a lot of sales of books that had been published 30 years prior. It happens nowadays all the time. But I'm just speculating, I don't have data or anything.
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Feb 10, 2018 20:24
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HIJK posted:The Silmarillion is easier then you might think, the characters are slowly introduced and they are given very vivid descriptions and personalities so it's pretty easy to tell them apart. The wiki format would divest them of their personalities so it would be easy to lose track. The way I always took it is the Ring enhanced the qualities its user already possessed. So Boromir with it would have become an even more charismatic warrior and mightier in battle, yet someone like Galadriel who used it could dominate the minds and wills of others even moreso than she already could. Boromir could use it in the same way Galadriel would but he'd have to train his will to be a lot stronger to do so. Galadriel basically tells Frodo as much. Even just having it with no training gives the user abilities other mortals don't have. For example, Frodo wearing it is able to perceive Galadriel is wearing one of the elven rings, and he even is somewhat able to read her heart and her desires. With training he would presumably become a lot more perceptive. But yeah the long and short of it is the more powerful the person the deadlier the Ring is going to be because it's basically an amplifier of what they can already do.
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Feb 11, 2018 08:29
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Heh, wonder what the story behind this is
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Feb 11, 2018 23:35
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Data Graham posted:Heh, wonder what the story behind this is It's because of a Reddit post about Gandalf and Saruman being Maia
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Feb 12, 2018 00:53
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poo poo, that means either that Wikipedia is a lot less read than I'd thought, or that Reddit is a lot more read
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Feb 12, 2018 01:31
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Data Graham posted:poo poo, that means either that Wikipedia is a lot less read than I'd thought, or that Reddit is a lot more read both of these things Also imagine how many people didn't already know that Gandalf was a Maiar
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Feb 12, 2018 01:57
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If you took the One Ring, buried it at the bottom in the deepest mine you could find, then collapsed the mine shafts and hence bringing the entire mine down on it, what do people think would happen? Would it just sort of call out for people to come dig it up, or just work its way back up to the surface like the world is a human body expelling a splinter or something? I suppose the actual answer is 'The Ring won't let you bury it in the first place', but that's a cheat.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:13
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A rat would find it and drag it somewhere and be captured by an orc.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:15
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Cornwind Evil posted:If you took the One Ring, buried it at the bottom in the deepest mine you could find, then collapsed the mine shafts and hence bringing the entire mine down on it, what do people think would happen? Would it just sort of call out for people to come dig it up, or just work its way back up to the surface like the world is a human body expelling a splinter or something?
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Feb 12, 2018 02:45
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Also even if it's never found Sauron is still powerful as long as it exists. So it's at best a half measure.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:46
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Cornwind Evil posted:If you took the One Ring, buried it at the bottom in the deepest mine you could find, then collapsed the mine shafts and hence bringing the entire mine down on it, what do people think would happen? Would it just sort of call out for people to come dig it up, or just work its way back up to the surface like the world is a human body expelling a splinter or something?
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Feb 12, 2018 02:59
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Tor.com is going through the Silmarillion chapter-by-chapter, and the person doing it is including these handy updates on who 
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Feb 12, 2018 03:42
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Ravenfood posted:A Balrog would live there, or dwarves/goblins/men would somewhat inexplicably decide to mine there, or a nameless creature that live underneath the mountains would find it, or an earthquake would bring reveal the former mineshaft, the mountains themselves might move (Caradhras has some level of sentience in the book), or something else. Remember, they discuss sending it to the bottom of the sea and the answer is "the tides would eventually bring it back." Collapsing a mindeshaft on it, or tossing it into the sea, would certainly work to keep it from Sauron for quite some time. The problem is that Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond believe that as long as the Ring remains, Sauron will endure and therefore, eventually, win. If the Ring remains, Sauron cannot be destroyed (at least by the current inhabitants of Middle-Earth). Hoping that you'll be able to keep the Ring from Sauron forever is foolish because eventually, you'll fail. Yeah it's a foolish plan. In Return of the King men are able to fight off Sauron's army and it's revealed that it's only one army for him and there's a lot more where that came from. It's basically stated that Sauron has pretty much limitless might compared to the good guys and that eventually he'll overwhelm them through sheer numbers if the ring isn't destroyed. He has basically all of the Southern kingdoms under his sway at that point plus countless orcs he's been breeding. Even without the ring he was gonna win. It had to be destroyed, that was the only hope for success.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:30
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Ginette Reno posted:Yeah it's a foolish plan. In Return of the King men are able to fight off Sauron's army and it's revealed that it's only one army for him and there's a lot more where that came from. It's basically stated that Sauron has pretty much limitless might compared to the good guys and that eventually he'll overwhelm them through sheer numbers if the ring isn't destroyed. He has basically all of the Southern kingdoms under his sway at that point plus countless orcs he's been breeding.
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Feb 12, 2018 12:26
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The problem is that the ring binds Sauron to Arda. Sauron can't really be killed, and as long as the ring exists he can't be sent into the void either. The only way to defeat him permanently is to destroy it, which is nearly impossible. As Gandalf pointed out, if Sauron had concentrated on defending Mordor eventually somone would have brought the ring to him. But he was undone by his own uncertainty. He was actually scared about what someone with the ring might do to him. So when Aragorn revealed himself he attacked immediately opening up the way for the hobbits to get to Mt. Doom.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:38
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sweet geek swag posted:The problem is that the ring binds Sauron to Arda. Sauron can't really be killed, and as long as the ring exists he can't be sent into the void either. The only way to defeat him permanently is to destroy it, which is nearly impossible. As Gandalf pointed out, if Sauron had concentrated on defending Mordor eventually somone would have brought the ring to him. But he was undone by his own uncertainty. He was actually scared about what someone with the ring might do to him. So when Aragorn revealed himself he attacked immediately opening up the way for the hobbits to get to Mt. Doom. Yeah that's the thing. Sauron never conceived of the idea that someone might try to destroy the ring. He did fear they might use it to overthrow him. And why not? That's what he would do in their shoes.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:00
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Ginette Reno posted:Yeah it's a foolish plan. In Return of the King men are able to fight off Sauron's army and it's revealed that it's only one army for him and there's a lot more where that came from. It's basically stated that Sauron has pretty much limitless might compared to the good guys and that eventually he'll overwhelm them through sheer numbers if the ring isn't destroyed. He has basically all of the Southern kingdoms under his sway at that point plus countless orcs he's been breeding. Yeah, the whole reason the plan is so bold is that Gandalf/Elrond/Galadriel saw the other options as all leading to a cycle where the Ring would be lost (whether on purpose or on accident), time would pass and The Ring would be forgotten, and then Sauron comes back with the only way to stop him is hiding the Ring again. It's an inherently unstable equilibrium and I'm always impressed at Tolkien's foresight in realizing that (or Sauron winning) is the endstate of anything but destroying the Ring.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:32
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axeil posted:Yeah, the whole reason the plan is so bold is that Gandalf/Elrond/Galadriel saw the other options as all leading to a cycle where the Ring would be lost (whether on purpose or on accident), time would pass and The Ring would be forgotten, and then Sauron comes back with the only way to stop him is hiding the Ring again. I assume that if Aragorn or Galadriel had used the Ring it is possible that "Sauron" would have been gone, but the course of winning over the Ring and throwing Sauron through the Dunnish announcer's table would have made them essentially "Sauron-ish" - perhaps Galadriel would have covered Middle-Earth in titanic trees instead of howling wastelands, but it would have come to the same in the end.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:40
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Nessus posted:I assume that if Aragorn or Galadriel had used the Ring it is possible that "Sauron" would have been gone, but the course of winning over the Ring and throwing Sauron through the Dunnish announcer's table would have made them essentially "Sauron-ish" - perhaps Galadriel would have covered Middle-Earth in titanic trees instead of howling wastelands, but it would have come to the same in the end. I mean yeah it's explicitly stated by several of those characters that this would be precisely the outcome. Galadriel probably would have been the worst option, I think he wrote that she specifically came to Middle-Earth because she wanted to rule her own lands, which I can't imagine would be great given god-like power.
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Feb 12, 2018 22:57
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Tolkien strongly suggests in the text and explicitly says in correspondence or somewhere that Gandalf as Ring-lord would have overthrown Sauron and been way worse, in his own way: instead of acting selfishly and amorally to advance his own interests, Gandalf would have continued to do what he considered good, but in a way necessarily made evil by the use of the ring’s power to dominate. He was wiser than Sauron and, at least as Gandalf the White, seems to have been less diminished from his original divine nature. A ring-wielding Gandalf would have been Real Bad: think like the Aspect Emperor from Prince of Nothing, but way more so because not merely human.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:16
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skasion posted:Tolkien strongly suggests in the text and explicitly says in correspondence or somewhere that Gandalf as Ring-lord would have overthrown Sauron and been way worse, in his own way: instead of acting selfishly and amorally to advance his own interests, Gandalf would have continued to do what he considered good, but in a way necessarily made evil by the use of the ring’s power to dominate. He was wiser than Sauron and, at least as Gandalf the White, seems to have been less diminished from his original divine nature. A ring-wielding Gandalf would have been Real Bad: think like the Aspect Emperor from Prince of Nothing, but way more so because not merely human. I'd never heard of Prince of Nothing, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. This motherfucker just straight ripped off Tolkien's linguistic style. Those of you who haven't read the series, which of the following are from Bakker's books and which are from Tolkien?
Tolkien: Hildórien, Enelyë, Curunír, Aegnor, Fíriel
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Feb 12, 2018 23:43
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Bakker is following a grand tradition of copying older works. If it ain't broke...
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Feb 12, 2018 23:47
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Bakker does love him some diacritics.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:48
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I checked out that tor.com blog and now I think I'll read the Silmarillion again. And get through Unfinished Tales this time too. Cheers thread.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:54
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skasion posted:Bakker does love him some diacritics. Diacritics are cool decorations 
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Feb 13, 2018 00:22
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skasion posted:Tolkien strongly suggests in the text and explicitly says in correspondence or somewhere that Gandalf as Ring-lord would have overthrown Sauron and been way worse, in his own way: instead of acting selfishly and amorally to advance his own interests, Gandalf would have continued to do what he considered good, but in a way necessarily made evil by the use of the ring’s power to dominate. He was wiser than Sauron and, at least as Gandalf the White, seems to have been less diminished from his original divine nature. A ring-wielding Gandalf would have been Real Bad: think like the Aspect Emperor from Prince of Nothing, but way more so because not merely human. Given that ring-wielding Angelic Gandalf drives the entire male population of Rohan into a suicidal frenzy for the Greater Good, it's not hard to imagine what Dark Gandalf would look like.
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Feb 13, 2018 00:43
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sassassin posted:Given that ring-wielding Angelic Gandalf drives the entire male population of Rohan into a suicidal frenzy for the Greater Good, it's not hard to imagine what Dark Gandalf would look like. Given that the alternative would likely have been extermination at the hands of the Dunlendings and Uruk-Hai it was probably a good thing that the people of Rohan decided ro defend themselves.
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Feb 13, 2018 01:01
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Like any good salesman, Gandalf convinces the buyer it was their idea.
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Feb 13, 2018 07:02
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sweet geek swag posted:Given that the alternative would likely have been extermination at the hands of the Dunlendings and Uruk-Hai it was probably a good thing that the people of Rohan decided ro defend themselves. Pelennor Fields was not a defensive action. Yeah, yeah, greater good ends justify the means etc. but when you look at how Gandalf does his business you see how small a jump it would be for him to realise his own stated fears if he were to gain a more powerful magic ring. He would do terrible things in the name of righteousness and victory against "the enemy" (Sauron, other maiar, Tooks). Book Theoden is a weak old man with a chip on his shoulder about never having fought a war being coerced, bullied and ensorcelled into suicide bombing some elephants so that Gandalf doesn't lose Minas Tirith in his war of angels. Bernard Hill is deliberately a much more powerful figure in the films.
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Feb 13, 2018 13:48
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Ynglaur posted:Like any good salesman, Gandalf convinces the buyer it was their idea. The whole "the hands of the king are the hands of a healer" myth he planted. It's just basic Elvish tricks. Wake up, sheeple!
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Feb 13, 2018 13:53
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sassassin posted:Pelennor Fields was not a defensive action. I'm sure Rohan would have been fine if Minas Tirith and Gondor had been defeated.
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Feb 13, 2018 14:40
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SHISHKABOB posted:I'm sure Rohan would have been fine if Minas Tirith and Gondor had been defeated. Even literary critics can be appeasers.
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Feb 13, 2018 14:41
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SHISHKABOB posted:I'm sure Rohan would have been fine if Minas Tirith and Gondor had been defeated. Maybe but that's not why they were there.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:04
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euphronius posted:Maybe but that's not why they were there. I think he was joking about that. The Dunlendings fought for Mordor and they absolutely would have kicked the poo poo out of Rohan when given the chance.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:18
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I'm talking about Riding to Minas tirith That was a separate action from the Dunledings whom the Roharim displaced.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:19
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The Dunlendings fought for Saruman not Mordor. It is actually explicit and important to the story that Rohan doesn’t aid Gondor just because if Gondor falls Rohan is also doomed (though it is) or because Gondor asks Rohan for help (though it does), but because Gandalf has convinced their political leadership that fighting Mordor is the right thing to do. The movies make a big change here, it’s one of those things that people just assume is a detail from the books when it isn’t at all. When Hirgon arrives bearing the red arrow and asking Theoden for help, Theoden is literally like “yeah we’re ready for it, Gandalf told us we’d have to make war on the East at some point, hell we’d have gone over there eventually even if Denethor hadn’t asked”.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:33
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I should really get the books on Kindle to post quotes.
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Feb 13, 2018 15:38
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quote:He sank on one knee and presented the arrow to Théoden. ‘Hail, Lord of the Rohirrim, friend of Gondor!’ he said. ‘Hirgon I am, errand-rider of Denethor, who bring you this token of war. Gondor is in great need. Often the Rohirrim have aided us, but now the Lord Denethor asks for all your strength and all your speed, lest Gondor fall at last.’ This is the passage I was thinking of. I’m pretty sure that way back in “The King of the Golden Hall” Gandalf got Theoden to commit to defeating Isengard first and then wheeling around to attack Mordor. skasion fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 15:47
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