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Yeah, I felt pretty strongly that the cycle will continue a few more times, maybe many more times, but there's hope in there that it can be ended. The second moon at the end felt like a symbol of permanent change to me, and therefore a sign of hope.
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Feb 15, 2018 03:39
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Despite my initial statements, I don't mind if people disagree with my take on the show. Part of the reason i'm even in this thread is to work backwards from the feeling of disappointment and annoyance I felt at the end of the series, I feel like I've done that and I have made clear why I think the way that I do both to myself and others in this thread. Even if you disagree with my conclusions I hope you can at least understand where I'm coming from. Honestly i'm more annoyed at a lot of the unqualified glowing praise I found online during my traditional 'post-show internet surf'. I read a little bit more online about the show and saw that at the time of the original manga such a downer ending where the bad guy ostensibly won was pretty much unheard of in this style of manga, but its not the 70s anymore and things like Watchmen, Judge Dredd, Chinatown, and Devilman itself have all wrung this particular trope dry along with all of their imitators.
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Feb 15, 2018 04:49
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To be fair Satan didn't win, that's sort of his realisation right at the end. He like everyone else lost, he's alone, his love is dead his demons are gone and then God makes him do it all again. Satan has lost at the end, because he couldn't understand compassion. Now he does, and so in a future loop Ryo/Satan and Akira can maybe win together, instead of lose apart.
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Feb 15, 2018 04:56
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yeah i cringed pretty hard when you called DevilMan cliche', but I guess you educated yourself good for you
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Feb 15, 2018 04:57
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:yeah i cringed pretty hard when you called DevilMan cliche', but I guess you educated yourself good for you Its that weird thing that happened with Lord of the Rings where because 99.999% of all fantasy settings have shamelessly ripped it off it now feels generic to a modern audience. I sill hate the show though.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:01
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While devil man is certainly a downer I don't think "nothing at all mattered" is really the point. In the end the struggles that the "good guys" went through didn't stop satan, but the point was that they were still valuable and worthwhile. Miki encouraging devilmen to come out and make themselves known was beautiful, and the courage those devilmen showed in announcing their presence was admirable, even as that announcement led to mobs immediately being formed on their doorsteps. It's something where the value of that is meant to be more self evident I think though. From a standpoint of pure practicality, there wasn't any reason for them to do that and it actively led to their demise for no physical gain. But just because it wasn't the perfectly pragmatic choice doesn't mean that it wasn't worth doing.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:16
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ninjewtsu posted:While devil man is certainly a downer I don't think "nothing at all mattered" is really the point. In the end the struggles that the "good guys" went through didn't stop satan, but the point was that they were still valuable and worthwhile. Miki encouraging devilmen to come out and make themselves known was beautiful, and the courage those devilmen showed in announcing their presence was admirable, even as that announcement led to mobs immediately being formed on their doorsteps. The problem is when you get into the symbolism of the act, it gets even worse, The Mikis and the Rappers at that point ultimately represent the goodness of humanity and are immediately and unequivocally destroyed by everything awful about humanity as represented by the mob. There is no redemption, nor even the possibility of redemption, for anyone involved. The entire scene is just one long 'and here is why Satan/Ryo is right about humanity'. The whole scene is just a barrel of black pitch poured over any notion that humanity is worth saving.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:34
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You're mistaking power for correctness.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:40
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You're mistaking power for correctness. In what way? The demons say humans are all scum who deserve to die, the humans then act like scum who deserve to die, the hero calls the humans scum who deserve to die. I'm not seeing where power is entering into this.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:You're mistaking power for correctness. The "correctness" is Satan's belief that in these dire circumstances humanity will fail. There's hope that in these dire circumstances the goodness of humanity will shine through, and our characters do their best to embody that goodness. But Satan is proven to be correct (in a factual sense) that humanity will fail to live up to that goodness. I've read a lot of the discussion here and I appreciate the difficult depiction of people doing the right thing. I appreciate the drama and beauty in having them fail. But ending with humanity literally wiped out and everyone we care about brutally killed kind of comes off as an unsatisfying edgy twist.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:51
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AnEdgelord posted:In what way? The demons say humans are all scum who deserve to die, the humans then act like scum who deserve to die, the hero calls the humans scum who deserve to die. I'm not seeing where power is entering into this. The humans who are scum that deserve to die killed all the humans who are not scum and did not deserve to die. Those humans who are not scum existed, were beautiful and courageous in the face of utter annihilation, and that is what made them the heroes. They lost, but the fact that they fought against the scum and were good people despite their defeat being assured makes their efforts more valuable, not less, because they managed to be good people even though there was no logical reason to. Imagine how humanity would have acted if being a good person had more practical benefits, if good people still exist when there's no reason for them to be good Tuxedo catfish made an excellent post earlier in the thread that I'm mostly reiterating, lemme find it
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Feb 15, 2018 06:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:okay so there are two points to the Book of Job
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Feb 15, 2018 06:16
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https://twitter.com/bougiegay/status/951591453465202688
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Feb 15, 2018 06:29
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pretend i posted ryo and satan for mine i keep wanting to write lucifer instead of satan because crybaby's satan isn't very biblical satan
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Feb 15, 2018 06:47
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Expect My Mom posted:ryo and satan 
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Feb 15, 2018 06:53
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The show full of very gay goals. But I’m particular to Miko. It’s the
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Feb 15, 2018 07:08
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I, too, want to be the Sportswear Demoness
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Feb 15, 2018 07:14
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Yo I just want to reiterate that this show had an absolutely incredible soundtrack
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Feb 15, 2018 08:35
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Nina posted:The show full of very gay goals. But I’m particular to Miko. Maybe more Imagine
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Feb 15, 2018 11:44
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Lord_Magmar posted:To be fair Satan didn't win, that's sort of his realisation right at the end. He like everyone else lost, he's alone, his love is dead his demons are gone and then God makes him do it all again. Satan has lost at the end, because he couldn't understand compassion. Now he does, and so in a future loop Ryo/Satan and Akira can maybe win together, instead of lose apart. I'm aware that Devilman Lady (which I will never, ever read) plays with breaking the timeloop to an extent, but the implication at the end of Crybaby is that God deliberately waits for Satan to suffer the pain of revelation right before He pulls the trigger on the world and forces him to do it all again. Crybaby says very little about God's role or motivations, which presents Him in the Old-Testament sense as an ineffable cosmic force that accounts for all possibilities within its matrix. There's no "winning" against something like that.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:18
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https://twitter.com/spiffable/status/963958788045856769
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Feb 15, 2018 16:01
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Even Satan, an absolute dick who cared for nothing except his goals, realized he was being an rear end in a top hat and saw the error of his ways at the very end. It's a hopeful ending, not because any of the characters themselves had a happy ending, but because Ryo changed to Akira's way of thinking. To put it in very simplistic terms: The good guys lost, but they still had the moral victory. Yes, everyone is dead, but at the very end love is still stronger than hate. Think of it not as nihilism but as a cautionary tale.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:31
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AnEdgelord posted:Despite my initial statements, I don't mind if people disagree with my take on the show. Part of the reason i'm even in this thread is to work backwards from the feeling of disappointment and annoyance I felt at the end of the series, I feel like I've done that and I have made clear why I think the way that I do both to myself and others in this thread. Even if you disagree with my conclusions I hope you can at least understand where I'm coming from. Honestly i'm more annoyed at a lot of the unqualified glowing praise I found online during my traditional 'post-show internet surf'. Nah, you're good. I'm honestly happy to be having this conversation in this thread rather than the same one that's been repeated ad nauseam. I don't actually have anything to add right now since my feelings have been already described more eloquently by several different people in the last few posts.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:36
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GimmickMan posted:Even Satan, an absolute dick who cared for nothing except his goals, realized he was being an rear end in a top hat and saw the error of his ways at the very end. It's a hopeful ending, not because any of the characters themselves had a happy ending, but because Ryo changed to Akira's way of thinking. And then the whole thing is reset by God, who at best is totally divorced from the notions of love and hate shown by humanity and at worst is using the entire planet as an eternally recurring punishment chamber for Satan out of sheer vindictiveness. The presentation of Devilman's themes was poor enough so that I don't really care whether people ultimately see it as hopeful or not, but its attempts at optimism are weak at best.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:38
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Oxxidation posted:And then the whole thing is reset by God, who at best is totally divorced from the notions of love and hate shown by humanity and at worst is using the entire planet as an eternally recurring punishment chamber for Satan out of sheer vindictiveness. Except it's not a true reset, there are now 2 moons above Earth, which suggests for all that it's a looping punishment things will change. Also Devilman is not Optimistic, if anything it's somewhat pessimistic, what it is is a) hopeful, and b) against it's own narcissistic state. The people who let themselves become monsters are admonished by the text constantly, Satan himself realises his own philosophy is kind of hosed up at the end. That's the point, the story may not have a happy ending and everyone may die, but those who became monsters were admonished, and those who didn't end up mourned by those who survived. It's not stating things will be okay, it is stating that you can either make things better or worse, and basically says making things worse makes you as much a monster as any demon.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:43
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Lord_Magmar posted:Except it's not a true reset, there are now 2 moons above Earth, which suggests for all that it's a looping punishment things will change. Also Devilman is not Optimistic, if anything it's somewhat pessimistic, what it is is a) hopeful, and b) against it's own narcissistic state. The people who let themselves become monsters are admonished by the text constantly, Satan himself realises his own philosophy is kind of hosed up at the end. That's the point, the story may not have a happy ending and everyone may die, but those who became monsters were admonished, and those who didn't end up mourned by those who survived. I viewed the moons more as cosmic tally marks than as a sign that anything is ever going to break the loop. I guess that eventually space might get so crowded that tidal fluctuations will cause some unexpected knock-on effects or something. Introducing God into a story the way Devilman does raises thorny questions of free will that can neuter any larger moral point you're trying to make. No one can make anything change for the better because all of their actions are part of an unbroken loop. Humans are weak creatures of appetite dominated by those with stronger instincts, who are in turn dominated by God, who is so high above all things so as to be unknowable and impossible to appeal to. Crybaby had some neat bits but the overall thrust of the story is that everything's doomed to end catastrophically regardless of our intentions, and I can just look at my news feed for the day if I needed a refresher on that point. It's telling that nearly everything that interested me about the show turned out to be an original addition from Yuasa. As discussed earlier, most of Nagai's own material has been iterated upon for the better at this point.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:52
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The book of Job is attempting to offer an explanation of 'The Problem of Evil' which itself is a philosophical problem that asks how an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent deity could allow evil to exist in the world. Ultimately the scope of that particular discussion is far beyond an anime discussion thread on a dead gay comedy forum, but the gist is that I don't buy the explanation of the book of job nor do I buy into the portrayal of humanity as something fundamentally predisposed towards evil (or good for that matter but this again drifts into a discussion far beyond the scope of this thread). I have more sympathy with things like Gnostic Christianity, which answers the problem of evil by stating "God aka The Demiurge is not only not benevolent but is an actively evil force in the universe which it created as little more than a spiritual prison for its own self-aggrandizement", they further expand that the entire point of existence is to transcend this level of reality into the next through knowledge or enlightenment also known as Gnosis. If you don't achieve Gnosis you remain trapped in this level of existence and are reincarnated into a new body, to suffer anew. I don't literally believe that of course, nor do I think that the creators of this show knowingly drew upon Gnostic ideas during the creation of Devilman, but ultimately I think it is an effective lens to show what I'm talking about (not to mention the perpetually looping hell that everyone is trapped in is a little to overtly Gnostic to ignore the comparison even if the creators didn't realize it). The position of the demons in the show is that humanity is a bunch of scum that are incapable of achieving Gnosis and because of that deserve to be wiped out, there are a few humans that are shown to be in the process of obtaining Gnosis and beginning to transcend the cycle, but (and this is crucial) their attempts at Gnosis are ultimately doomed because the prison is too effective, their fellow humans ultimately destroy them for the attempt and by all accounts the cycle continues. In the Gnositic universe this failure to transcend is neither noble nor laudable, it is simply another failure and another cycle that is doomed to be repeated. That this cycle has repeated several times basically reinforces the idea that THERE IS NO WAY OUT, no transcendence, no redemption, no nothing. Now some people may say 'but there were signs that Gnosis may be achieved in the future'. If i'm honest I didn't get that at all from the show, the perpetual cycles seemed like something that has happened again and again and again with no sign of abating, given that the reset is triggered by Satan mourning Akira its clear that this is not the first time that such a thing has happened, the details may change slightly with the two moon but ultimately there is no escape. That there is no escape is why I hated the show, because to create a universe that is not only perverse and evil but is doomed to be perverse and evil with no hope of escape is way past the event horizon of how dark something can be before it stops being enjoyable.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:15
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Well things would have gone differently if SATAN WOULD JUST TAKE THE GATDAM BATON
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Feb 15, 2018 17:22
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Well things would have gone differently if SATAN WOULD JUST TAKE THE GATDAM BATON He would have but he was too busy trying to be a top
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Feb 15, 2018 18:21
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from Lady 
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Feb 15, 2018 18:28
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Gnostic Nagai
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Feb 15, 2018 18:36
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DisDisDis posted:from Lady Ok I guess they probably did draw upon Gnostic ideas then
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Feb 15, 2018 18:46
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I don't think the takeaway from what happened to miki is "this was a failure" Seems to me more like "miki was a success, if only there were more mikis" "This was all pointless" isn't really a statement made by the show's dramatic framing, events are clearly important and impactful so I think any point the show is making about these events would consider these events to be significant
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Feb 15, 2018 19:46
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AnEdgelord posted:Ultimately the scope of that particular discussion is far beyond an anime discussion thread on a dead gay comedy forum, lol
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Feb 15, 2018 20:44
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ninjewtsu posted:I don't think the takeaway from what happened to miki is "this was a failure" The ending of that scene is a bunch of people parading around with dismembered pieces of miki's body on sticks. This is the same kind of framing G.R.R.M. used in ASOIAF after the Red Wedding where Rob's body was sewn to his wolf's head and paraded around. The kind of message that framing sends is of the character getting thoroughly and completely owned. That both scenes are the culmination of a naive character being swallowed up by the cruelty of the world is no coincidence.
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Feb 15, 2018 21:48
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Aurora posted:lol Sounds like he's saying that he's just too smart for us.  I wish I wuz
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Feb 15, 2018 22:30
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Matoi Ryuko posted:Sounds like he's saying that he's just too smart for us. Hardly, I just figured that I would spare the thread an unrelated discussion that has little to do with the topic at hand. If you want to discuss philosophy and the nature of theistic faith don't let me stop you.
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Feb 15, 2018 22:37
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don't talk about faith and philosphy in this show that has satan and god and many conflicting ideologies
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Feb 15, 2018 22:43
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Aurora posted:don't talk about faith and philosphy in this show that has satan and god and many conflicting ideologies Ok fine I was trying to keep it brief and didn't want to add three extra paragraphs on to discuss moral philosophy since it wasn't related to my central point and I wanted to try to keep it brief. Sue me.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:02
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personally i think it's fine to discuss thoughts you have on a series even if i may disagree with them
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Feb 15, 2018 23:04
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